I think Comic book shows are broken 2 2

[Westy Steve]

I just returned from Tampa Con. I feel like most of the dealers there.(but not all) have broken away from reality with their pricing.  I saw so many prices on wall books that didn’t seem to correlate to eBay or Gocollect at all!  I'm not talking the usual 10% higher...I'm talking fantasy pricing.  At one point I was offered a raw book for $375 that was listed at $180 on go collect in the slab. This wasn’t an old listing in Gocollect either. It was fair market value. Note that both the dealer and I agreed on the grade.  The dealer tried to hang his hat on a completed sale of a slabbed eBay auction that sold for best offer below than $299 and that book was a double cover book.  Ok, yes...his book, his prerogative to price it how he wants.  I can say that buyers need to be VERY CAREFUL at shows...don't assume the price for a book is close to comps.  

I didn't see any books I was interested in (keys or semi keys) that were below Ebay.  Bear in mind that the average Ebay seller is saddled with about 14% in fees too.  I did find good deals on the cheaper stuff.  

The few times I did challenge dealers on their prices, my answer back was they needed to price that way because the table fees were high.

Being charitable, perhaps the problem is that... with the recent price correction in the market..., dealers cannot buy items at the price as they need to compete with online auction sites.  Therefore, I’m beginning to wonder if it would make sense to only attend shows where the table fees are low so that the dealers have the flexibility to sell their books at prices that actually approach market prices…or at least can’t use that excuse.  

Yes, this is a rant.  For what it’s worth, I sometimes play dealer myself, so this is not a buyer versus dealer rant. At least at this show, for the books I was looking for, it simply was not worth the cost of attendance for the privilege of buying “sight seen” books. Save for the experience itself, I definitely would have been better off shopping in my pajamas from home. 

Edited August 26 by Westy Steve

[rlextherobot]

At the show I was at this past weekend I saw a mix of prices, some very fair, some absolutely outlandish. As a hobby seller myself, I do wonder if the rationale for the super high priced sellers is that they need to make fewer sales to make the same amount of money as other tables, and have to spend less time and money restocking. I imagine if you do a lot of shows that's probably a pretty appealing idea. Then again, they may just be out to lunch, I've chatted with dealers who genuinely feel like their way above FMV price is justified and any counterexample from eBay or elsewhere is dismissed with some shoddy reasoning like "you know what you're getting and that's worth the extra money" or my favourite "the internet is all fake, I've been selling to real collectors for decades". 

[MAY1979]

^ You're more likely to get an honest answer from a local politician than a Comic Book Dealer.

Edited August 26 by MAY1979

[Chip Cataldo]

If you're buying even a $50 book blind without any market research, you're a fool.

[alexgross.com]

dealers have a tough haul when the market is depressed like it's been since the mid-covid bubble popping. they always tend to be above gpa at shows because of the cost of attending, though some are egregious and others are much more reasonable. 

in the past when i had money and attended cons, i would slightly overpay for the right book from dealers that worked with me and were reasonable.

i appreciate that they have costs associated with attending shows and acquiring collections. and i am willing to pay a bit more for books with white pages. 

 

what bugs me most is that when one tries to sell to dealers, which i have done, they use gpa all day long, and offer you something between 60-75% depending on various things. 

but when you are buying from them, gpa conveniently goes out the window unless there's been an outlier record sale. 

the few dealers who dont play this nonsense game are the very few that i deal with anymore. 

[revat]

Firstly, I recognize that as a dealer (or really any comic collector) you cant turn a great profit on every book you sell, in fact sometimes you probably take a loss.

HOWEVER, there are also sometimes very reasonable justifications for seemingly fantasy pricing.  Here's a very plausible scenario:

1.  In 2021 you bought two raw copies same grade of a big wall key, like xmen 1 at 70%-80%, for $4,000 per, so a total of $8,000.  You price both for $6,000, and are lucky to sell one right away at a convention for near $6,000, like $5,700. That's great.

2.  You keep the other one priced at $6K and on the wall for the next three years, it doesn't sell, and the price has steadily dropped to now being worth about $4k slabbed.

3.  Now offers are coming in at $3K.  You could look at it one of the following ways:

    a.  You could sell it for $3K - you perceive that as a loss of $1K off of your initial purchase price, and you lose a big wall book, and the chance to sell to some sucker for at least $4.5K (hopefully).

    b.  You could sell for $3K - you still gained $700 on the original purchase price of the two books, and you get cash in hand today to either pay some bills or turnover new inventory.  But you also lost one of your bigger wall books, and you kinda love owning an Xmen 1.

   c.  You could hold until a dummy comes and overpays, or the price cycles back up, you're not in a hurry and it looks great on your wall and you love owning an xmen 1.  

 

Now of course as the buyer you don't know or care about any of the above, but that is not such an unreasonable or implausible circumstance IMO for a dealer, especially if they don't rely on comic sales as their main source of income.

 

Edited August 26 by revat

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 8/25/2024 at 10:11 PM, Westy Steve said:

I just returned from Tampa Con. I feel like most of the dealers there.(but not all) have broken away from reality with their pricing.  I saw so many prices on wall books that didn’t seem to correlate to eBay or Gocollect at all!  I'm not talking the usual 10% higher...I'm talking fantasy pricing.  At one point I was offered a raw book for $375 that was listed at $180 on go collect in the slab. This wasn’t an old listing in Gocollect either. It was fair market value. Note that both the dealer and I agreed on the grade.  The dealer tried to hang his hat on a completed sale of a slabbed eBay auction that sold for best offer below than $299 and that book was a double cover book.  Ok, yes...his book, his prerogative to price it how he wants.  I can say that buyers need to be VERY CAREFUL at shows...don't assume the price for a book is close to comps.  

I didn't see any books I was interested in (keys or semi keys) that were below Ebay.  Bear in mind that the average Ebay seller is saddled with about 14% in fees too.  I did find good deals on the cheaper stuff.  

The few times I did challenge dealers on their prices, my answer back was they needed to price that way because the table fees were high.

Being charitable, perhaps the problem is that... with the recent price correction in the market..., dealers cannot buy items at the price as they need to compete with online auction sites.  Therefore, I’m beginning to wonder if it would make sense to only attend shows where the table fees are low so that the dealers have the flexibility to sell their books at prices that actually approach market prices…or at least can’t use that excuse.  

Yes, this is a rant.  For what it’s worth, I sometimes play dealer myself, so this is not a buyer versus dealer rant. At least at this show, for the books I was looking for, it simply was not worth the cost of attendance for the privilege of buying “sight seen” books. Save for the experience itself, I definitely would have been better off shopping in my pajamas from home. 

[grendel013]

I'd price at least one book stoopidly high just to attract people over to my table. Here's my ASM 129 CGC 7.5 for $58K!!! BARGAIN!!!

[KirbyJack]

On 8/26/2024 at 12:36 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

If you're buying even a $50 book blind without any market research, you're a fool.

Guilty 

[Math Teacher]

On 8/26/2024 at 12:11 AM, Westy Steve said:

I just returned from Tampa Con. I feel like most of the dealers there.(but not all) have broken away from reality with their pricing.  I saw so many prices on wall books that didn’t seem to correlate to eBay or Gocollect at all!  I'm not talking the usual 10% higher...I'm talking fantasy pricing.  At one point I was offered a raw book for $375 that was listed at $180 on go collect in the slab. This wasn’t an old listing in Gocollect either. It was fair market value. Note that both the dealer and I agreed on the grade.  The dealer tried to hang his hat on a completed sale of a slabbed eBay auction that sold for best offer below than $299 and that book was a double cover book.  Ok, yes...his book, his prerogative to price it how he wants.  I can say that buyers need to be VERY CAREFUL at shows...don't assume the price for a book is close to comps.  

I didn't see any books I was interested in (keys or semi keys) that were below Ebay.  Bear in mind that the average Ebay seller is saddled with about 14% in fees too.  I did find good deals on the cheaper stuff.  

The few times I did challenge dealers on their prices, my answer back was they needed to price that way because the table fees were high.

Being charitable, perhaps the problem is that... with the recent price correction in the market..., dealers cannot buy items at the price as they need to compete with online auction sites.  Therefore, I’m beginning to wonder if it would make sense to only attend shows where the table fees are low so that the dealers have the flexibility to sell their books at prices that actually approach market prices…or at least can’t use that excuse.  

Yes, this is a rant.  For what it’s worth, I sometimes play dealer myself, so this is not a buyer versus dealer rant. At least at this show, for the books I was looking for, it simply was not worth the cost of attendance for the privilege of buying “sight seen” books. Save for the experience itself, I definitely would have been better off shopping in my pajamas from home. 

Well said.

[Math Teacher]

On 8/26/2024 at 5:21 PM, alexgross.com said:

i appreciate that they have costs associated with attending shows and acquiring collections. and i am willing to pay a bit more for books with white pages. 

 

what bugs me most is that when one tries to sell to dealers, which i have done, they use gpa all day long, and offer you something between 60-75% depending on various things. 

but when you are buying from them, gpa conveniently goes out the window unless there's been an outlier record sale. 

the few dealers who dont play this nonsense game are the very few that i deal with anymore. 

I understand dealers have overhead and other expenses of which I am probably unaware. However, except for keys, you're lucky if you get 25¢ on the dollar when you sell a book. When you come back a week later, the same book is available for sale at 25% above GPA.

[MAY1979]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:48 PM, Math Teacher said:

I understand dealers have overhead and other expenses of which I am probably unaware. However, except for keys, you're lucky if you get 25¢ on the dollar when you sell a book. When you come back a week later, the same book is available for sale at 25% above GPA.

Agreed. However, in 2024 why would someone with knowledge of the hobby, who's not in the throes of withdrawal and needs a quick fix, ever sell to a dealer? Consign sure, sell nopes!

Edited August 27 by MAY1979

[DougC]

On 8/26/2024 at 6:21 PM, revat said:

    b.  You could sell for $3K - you still gained $700 on the original purchase price of the two books, and you get cash in hand today to either pay some bills or turnover new inventory.  But you also lost one of your bigger wall books, and you kinda love owning an Xmen 1.

   c.  You could hold until a dummy comes and overpays, or the price cycles back up, you're not in a hurry and it looks great on your wall and you love owning an xmen 1.

I think this needs slightly more attention as not every wall book is priced to sell.

Some books are priced to be looked at, scoffed at, and talked about how outrageous the price is, so that the Sleepwalker #1 CGC 9.8 priced at $120 doesn't look so bad, "in fact that's a steal... I should buy it". IIRC some years ago we had a pretty long discussion about decoy pricing, discount pricing, and marketing in general that was brought up again when talking about MHC.

[Buzzetta]

Been saying it for years.  The one show I actually go to a year, I basically just stop by Storms, Reece, and maybe one or two more then I move on to the art dealers and artists alley.  The vendors can be eye rolling though and there is definitely a NY tax with a few of them.  In one instance, the vendor had higher prices at the show than online and would not budge so with a shrug I went home and ordered for less AND with free shipping.  

When it comes to the local shows, the stuff I am looking for these days seem to hit auction and I have no desire to go $1 book hunting in boxes at those setups. 

I have until October 1st to decide if I will be going to NYCC and as of now I am undecided.   

[Buzzetta]

On 8/26/2024 at 9:56 PM, MAY1979 said:

Agreed. However, in 2024 why would someone with knowledge of the hobby, who's not in the throes of withdrawal and needs a quick fix, ever sell to a dealer? Consign sure, sell nopes!

I would not even consign.  Who is to really say that the book sells for the reported price so the store owner can pocket a few more dollars?  Saw that scam when I was a teenager.

[Buzzetta]

On 8/26/2024 at 10:12 PM, DougC said:

I think this needs slightly more attention as not every wall book is priced to sell.

Some books are priced to be looked at, scoffed at, and talked about how outrageous the price is, so that the Sleepwalker #1 CGC 9.8 priced at $120 doesn't look so bad, "in fact that's a steal... I should buy it". IIRC some years ago we had a pretty long discussion about decoy pricing, discount pricing, and marketing in general that was brought up again when talking about MHC.

On "another area of the internet" I remarked on the following on the video below where this attendee asks dealers what their most expensive comic is.  Now keep in mind that this is from December of 2023 when this was posted and my reply reflected the pricing at the time.   Someone else posted the video, and we had a discussion about the books therein. 

These were my observations at the time (Remember December of 2023):  

 

• On the AF15: Lot of inflated asking prices in that video.  $200k for an AF15 in a 6.0?  I might be inclined to offer my 6.0 for $175k and I am still overpriced.  MCS is currently offering a 6.5 for 135k or best offer and a 7.0 for $170k. Both books have slight to moderate Marvel Chipping.  My 6.0 does not so $175k should be a steal.

• On a certain known dealer asking $55,000 for a Giant Size X-Men 1 CGC 9.8 with White pages (a designation that CGC has consistently flip flopped on over the years).  There is a white pager currently on eBay for $50k OBO There is an OW-W pager currently on eBay for $30k and $28.5.  Sorry, if someone is willing to accept at MOST $50k on eBay that means that they are figuring in the 10% fees and that they are looking to collect around $45k before taxes.   OBO means that they are willing to go lower than that.  Even if it was a straight $55k, are "white" pages, a designation that CGC has again flip flopped on, worth around $25,000 more? 

Many of the prices in this video from some recognizable faces were hail mary's and I think you are right that they are designed that way for specific reasons.  However?  Is that sustainable?  There are fewer comic book stores than there were even twenty years ago.  I would love to know if that is an increase or decrease in comparison to regular brick and mortar for more mainstream goods. 

 

[godzilla43]

I watched a haul video from Terrificon 2024 raw direct marvel super-heroes winter special (1st squirrel girl) for 125$  Also I think time has passed about the whole "we are doing -30% for everything".

Edited August 27 by godzilla43

[MAY1979]

On 8/27/2024 at 12:02 AM, Buzzetta said:

I would not even consign.  Who is to really say that the book sells for the reported price so the store owner can pocket a few more dollars?  Saw that scam when I was a teenager.

I like your statement more than my own I have now struck-through the consignment part in it.

Only folks less trustworthy than a Comic Book Dealer are Trading Card and Original Art Dealers.

Edited August 27 by MAY1979

[Robot Man]

I would also echo high prices on keys at cons. Mostly wall books. Maybe due to high booth prices, maybe due to the cost and availability of replacement books and maybe just some greed.

I still love cons though. I. Usually scan the wall. Maybe “tire kick” a few wall books to judge a dealer’s pricing, then hit the boxes. That is where the deals usually are. For those too picky or lazy to do a little digging. I also look for that “one guy” usually on the outskirts of the room. The smaller guy nobody knows. Often deals can be found from that guy.

There are no deals on the pretty keys. They are just too hard to replace. Set your sights a little lower if you want to go home happy…

[BitterOldMan]

On 8/27/2024 at 8:23 AM, Robot Man said:

I would also echo high prices on keys at cons. Mostly wall books. Maybe due to high booth prices, maybe due to the cost and availability of replacement books and maybe just some greed.

I still love cons though. I. Usually scan the wall. Maybe “tire kick” a few wall books to judge a dealer’s pricing, then hit the boxes. That is where the deals usually are. For those too picky or lazy to do a little digging. I also look for that “one guy” usually on the outskirts of the room. The smaller guy nobody knows. Often deals can be found from that guy.

There are no deals on the pretty keys. They are just too hard to replace. Set your sights a little lower if you want to go home happy…

I always buy from @Robot Man, because he has what I want at bargain prices and is one of the coolest dealers in the room.😘. He rarely posts his photo, since he is busy anonymously hunting for good stuff.  This is an unpaid endorsement!