CGC vs. PGX

[Ze-man]

I've recently come across information that I believe is reliable regarding the TL PGX connection that would blow the lid off of the entire thing. Unfortunately I feel it would be inappropriate to publish the info without corroboration so at this point I have to keep it to myself.

 

 

Here is to you getting what you need.

 

[Point Five]

Or read my website:

 

PGX & Terrance Leder: A Love Story

 

Thanks, OG! I saw references to your page but couldn't find the link. Nice work.

 

I much agree with Zipper about the stigma of books in PGX slabs, though there are still plenty of buyers who don't know about these scandals. I would be at least as wary (if not more) of buying a PGX-slabbed GA book as a raw one, as there would exist a reasonable concern in my mind that the book was submitted to PGX and not CGC in order to receive a blue label, and that trimming or other work had been intentionally snuck by.

[Mr. Zipper]

concern in my mind that the book was submitted to PGX and not CGC in order to receive a blue label, and that trimming or other work had been intentionally snuck by.

 

This is true. My main concern would be a high grade Bronze book that may have been a Leder book, but there is the distinct possiblity that others may be "testing" PGX as well.

 

Frankly, it's entirely possible that 95% of PGX books have received a fair grading and halfway decent resto check, but the shady 5% is what totally destroys their brand value.

[Fedoraman]

Thanks for the info and the links, you guys are golden.

[Mac Man]

Well, I can't say that I'm a slab collector, but if I ever do buy some, this has more than made up my mind where not to buy from. On the flipside, I'm going to pass this thread on to one of my LCS owners. Great guy, but he sends some of his stuff into PGX- interestingly enough, I haven't seen many of his slabbed copies sell. This might help him out.

[Sal]

I've recently come across information that I believe is reliable regarding the TL PGX connection that would blow the lid off of the entire thing. Unfortunately I feel it would be inappropriate to publish the info without corroboration so at this point I have to keep it to myself.

 

well, thanks for sharing.

 

 

you can tell me. i won't tell anyone, and you know i can keep a secret

[njiron]

Quick question regarding CGC vs. PGX: after all said an done, doesn't PGX actually price out only slightly less in terms of overall costs (shipping, insurance, submission fees)?

 

I was comparing last night and noticed that the difference wasn't as much as I once thought.

[valiantman]

Quick question regarding CGC vs. PGX: after all said an done, doesn't PGX actually price out only slightly less in terms of overall costs (shipping, insurance, submission fees)?

 

I was comparing last night and noticed that the difference wasn't as much as I once thought.

 

Yep, moldy cheese is always at least a little cheaper.

 

Doesn't mean anyone should eat consider eating it.

[Raphael]

i already had some cgc slabs, and i'd heard about pgx, so i decided to buy one and see how it went.

 

i managed to find an Army of Darkness zombie Ash variant. (also in the pgm thread)

 

this is what i received the one time i purchased a pgx 9.8 book:

 

 

 

upon asking the fellow forumites what they thought, i received all 9.6's

 

[Point Five]

Quick question regarding CGC vs. PGX: after all said an done, doesn't PGX actually price out only slightly less in terms of overall costs (shipping, insurance, submission fees)?

 

I was comparing last night and noticed that the difference wasn't as much as I once thought.

 

Yep, moldy cheese is always at least a little cheaper.

 

Doesn't mean anyone should eat consider eating it.

 

[deamentia]

That's awful, Oneasian. Why do people keep that company in business?!

[Mr. Zipper]

That's awful, Oneasian. Why do people keep that company in business?!

 

PGX is slightly less expensive on moderns and can be substantially less for older books.

 

Bear in mind that the people here are a very small segment of the collecting community. I'm sure there are many collectors and smaller dealers who see PGX as just another slabbing company and every bit as legitimate as CGC. Or, there are dealers that don't care... they just figure that they can get more for "slabbed" books and will go the cheapest route possible.

 

And, I suppose there are always people that will reflexively support the "underdog."

 

There are several well-known and "legitimate" sports card grading companies, so it's not a stretch for the casual collector to think nothing of there being a few comic grading companies.

 

I was a supporter of PGX in the beginning. Nothing against CGC, but I think competition is always good and provides checks and balances to the market. Frankly, it concerns me how much power CGC -- a small group of people -- has attained over the hobby virtually overnight.

[mr.schomburg]

concern in my mind that the book was submitted to PGX and not CGC in order to receive a blue label, and that trimming or other work had been intentionally snuck by.

 

This is true. My main concern would be a high grade Bronze book that may have been a Leder book, but there is the distinct possiblity that others may be "testing" PGX as well.

 

Frankly, it's entirely possible that 95% of PGX books have received a fair grading and halfway decent resto check, but the shady 5% is what totally destroys their brand value.

 

Just to play Devils advocate, where do you get the 5% mark? I personally like both CGC and PGX, I happen to live in Eugene, and therefore support PGX due to no shipping, thus less expensive and I believe better holder. If I lived in Sarasota I have no doubt I would be using CGC. I talked to Daniel today as he picked up an order from my office to be graded, and we talked for about 45 min. on the subject of these threads. PGX is grading on average about 1700 books per month, or about 80 books per work day. So your assumption is that approx. 85 books a month have mistakes, or shady grading practices, now I have searched the threads over and over, and found approx. 8 examples of so called tainted or shady subjects. Do you still believe or better yet have proof of this claim of 5%

My point being I have actually found many more examples of questionable books graded by CGC, now don't get me wrong I am not saying CGC is culpable any more than PGX. Then again CGC is grading approx. 2400 books a day, so it would be normal to have more mistakes. I specifically showed Daniel the Leder Cheerios box pics, and he said that they really probably dropped the ball on that one. Not in anyway knowing that these books were tampered, now that may sound unbelievable, but lets face the facts. PGX was and is new, both grading companies do and will continue to drop the ball on occasion. Trimmed books will be missed by both, CT will be missed, grades will be given which make no sense at all. These are human graders working on repetitive work, and there will be mistakes.

I really don't care about the PGX vs. CGC thing, I am sure this small post will arise a bunch of rable rousers in arms to bash or spout more suposed facts how they are right and I am wrong. Well, maybe I am wrong, maybe I am not. Maybe PGX made an honest mistake or two, and delt with a very dishonest seller who used their inexperience to his advantage. Maybe PGX has tightened up their resto check and continually does so, a evolution in perfecting the trade....CGC has done it. I only can speak for myself, and I like PGX, and their holder..I also like CGC, I think CGC has done more good for the hobby in the last 7 yrs than anyone in the last 20, aside from Mylars and acid free backing boards

From my dealings with PGX, I can say that I have been treated professionally, quickly, and all of my questions answered in reguards to my books and also concerns of their scared past. I have no doubt others may have not had the same experience, but many have.

When it comes down to it, this is all about the hobby and love of comics. I personally love comics, and have really enjoyed the boards. I have many friends which I am excited to meet up with in Chicago, and have learned much. I really don't care for the endless witch hunts, but its part of the experience. Everyone has a choice, so make up your own mind, ask questions, go to the source, educate your self. Don't listen to endless rhetoric with out checking the facts from all sides, life is about much more.

 

Well I hadn't intended to , but I did. Sorry for that. I am out.

[mr.schomburg]

Oh and before some wacko starts saying He's from Eugene he is a shill, I am not. I have always supported PGX, but I am in no way affiliated with them or have any interest in the company. I am just a collector of comics.

[MrBedrock]

Paul,

Couldn't agree more. Any thought that PGX is any more or less liable to screw up a grade than anyone else is just opinion. After all, there isn't any graduate grading school where comic scholars go to achieve grading perfection and earn their grading diploma. Whose to say who is most qualified to perform this exacting rocket science. Obviously CGC has a longer and better documented track record, and public opinion is in their corner. But until someone has proof that PGX is actually doing shoddy work, any bad mouthing of them is probably just sour grapes.

 

On a side note...if Heritage accepted PGX graded books, how much difference would it make in their acceptance by the collecting community?

[mr.schomburg]

Richard,

I understand, although not confirmed that Heritage will begin accepting PGX books, probably to resubmit them to CGC

[Mr. Zipper]

Paul -

 

I have no axe to grind either way. As I mentioned, I was a PGX supporter when they first came on the scene.

 

But the real problem with PGX isn't about a missed grade, or honestly missed resto or sour grapes or a witch hunt. It's about highly questionable relationships and severely damaged credibility.

 

Have you read Brian's site?

http://www.justafanboy.com/PGX/

 

BTW, Daniel is very engaging and has become quite adept at admitting "mistakes" and painting them as if they were isolated incidents. They are not. PGX has had to explain away quite a few "isolated incidents."

 

I know a number of people who are investigators or attorneys have looked into Patterson and Leder and a number of highly suspect links arise between the two. The smoking bullet hasn't been found yet, but it will turn up eventually.

 

If it barks like a dog, walks like a dog and looks like a dog, it's a DOG!

[mr.schomburg]

Yes, I did in fact read Brian's site. I also asked Daniel about it. I am satisfied with the info recieved at this time, of course if someone has proof otherwise lets see it. Not conjecture, but real proof. Appearantly there some people with a lot of resorces and time to Hire investigators and Attorney's, you would think if there is a smoking gun they would have it. Like I said, its a witch hunt, and I have seen evidence of shady relationships (not proof from both CGC and PGX) on this and other forums, but that doesn't make me go out and speak against either one. I wouldn't think of slandering someone without real evidence, much damage can be done on conjecture and heresay.

I feel there is a place for each company and both have good things to offer, I buy both types of slabs and to date have been reasonably happy with both.

The Dog may sound, smell, bark, and look like a dog, and yet may be a dingo! Meanig things are not always as they seem. That being said I respect other opinions than mine, but negative issues should be backed with actuall proof..at least as I think.

Paul

 

You don't have to like PGX, but you gotta love the holder. I have compared the two and it is much superior in my opinion.

[Davenport]

I personally like both CGC and PGX, I happen to live in Eugene, and therefore support PGX due to no shipping, thus less expensive and I believe better holder. If I lived in Sarasota I have no doubt I would be using CGC. I talked to Daniel today as he picked up an order from my office to be graded, and we talked for about 45 min. on the subject of these threads.

By any chance have you ever been to their facility? Through the years it's become a glowing oddity since PGX will not put any facility pictures or staff bios/pics on their website. It's something their supporters have repeatedly suggested, an easy 10 minute job, and would dispell criticisms of PGX being a one-man "garage" business.

 

The "due to no shipping" part of your post was really exciting,... but then it said "he picked up an order from my office". Oh well. But if you've ever personally been onsite or inside please post about it. Please.

[sterlingcomics]

I am an avid CGC fan...and I'll be the first to admit that I like the PGX holder better (not the label design). But...you get what you pay for...and although the physical product is a bit better, the service and what stands behind that product is very much inferior. I've met PGX and Daniel in particular and thought he was very personable...but my money is going to CGC for certification.

 

Anyone remember...

[*] when PGX wasn't using archive materials for their holder?

[*] The Case of the Slighted Spidey?

[*] Terrance Leder?

[*] the missed restoration that goes beyond belief?

[*] the tight grades at the top end, and terrible mid grades?

[*] the alphabet soup du jour in regards to the company name?

 

I will give PGX one thing: I have not seen case one of slabbed comic syndrome (SCS) on a PGX holder, and no pulled paper on staples to refute Borock's claims that pressure isn't a good option for eliminating SCS on economy books. Then again, PGX (relative to CGC) has not slabbed that many books. However, because restoration checks are so bad, I wouldn't touch a PGX book...to be honest I'd rather take a chance on eBay raw before I do that...and that's saying something.

 

In terms of proof, I know that Red Hook has demonstrated lots of information in previous threads...information that cannot be refuted...and when asked...PGX (or the other half dozen company incarnations you may know them as) dug a deeper hole. Ancient history...read the threads.