More Fun #67 on Ebay...

[Silver Surfer]

If nothing else these books are a perfect example of why I am not totally against pressing books. To try and suggest that they should be left as it is kind of ridiculous, you can't even get them in a mylar safely. Press those books Steve and keep me in the loop when you are ready to sell them.

[LearnedHand]

QUOTE: "And this is exactly right, Peter is expressing his own personal views and perceptions. As a matter of fact they are not consistent with the NOD or its history as an organization..."

 

Just saw this. Mark, not that I really care or want to belabor this, but because you’ve decided to insert yourself, and with such arbitrary dismissive comments...

 

It seems your memory is very kind to you. I recall many of the early NoD discussions, and I remember you and at least 2 other NoD members claiming on various threads that pressed books sell for less than their un-pressed counterparts. And I recall you telling me your pro-disclosure focus was due to your NDP Gaines Mad #1 experience. So, you're now claiming that the people who organized and run NoD had (and have) no influence on its workings?

 

Then tell me: if NoD doesn’t, on any level, believe pressing devalues books or is at all harmful, then what’s NoD’s value? Is NoD simply doing what every other reputable dealer already does – providing disclosure? If so, then isn’t NoD exactly what I said it was on another thread – a collector-subsidized (via dues) marketing campaign to distinguish its dealers and attract business? And, as most NoD dealers are newbies, doesn't this amount to an attempt to leap-frog the conventional method of building a trusting customer base (via long-term relationships) through this marketing campaign? Not to single you out, but it seems a little like the following – “yeah, I know you hadn’t heard of Esquirecomics or Mark Zaid until very recently. And yeah, I’ve only been seriously involved in GA vintage books for like 2 or 3 years now. But trust me like you would someone with whom you’ve been transacting for 20 years because I say I am trustworthy, and because I am part of a self-funded organization that also says so. Oh, and best of all, if you buy from me and discover some undetectable enhancement that I didn’t disclose, I will refund your money.”

 

I am surprised by your comments, as I thought NoD had more fundamental and noble motives. What am I missing?

 

[ciorac]

QUOTE: "And this is exactly right, Peter is expressing his own personal views and perceptions. As a matter of fact they are not consistent with the NOD or its history as an organization..."

 

Just saw this. Mark, not that I really care or want to belabor this, but because you’ve decided to insert yourself, and with such arbitrary dismissive comments...

 

It seems your memory is very kind to you. I recall many of the early NoD discussions, and I remember you and at least 2 other NoD members claiming on various threads that pressed books sell for less than their un-pressed counterparts. And I recall you telling me your pro-disclosure focus was due to your NDP Gaines Mad #1 experience. So, you're now claiming that the people who organized and run NoD had (and have) no influence on its workings?

 

Then tell me: if NoD doesn’t, on any level, believe pressing devalues books or is at all harmful, then what’s NoD’s value? Is NoD simply doing what every other reputable dealer already does – providing disclosure? If so, then isn’t NoD exactly what I said it was on another thread – a collector-subsidized (via dues) marketing campaign to distinguish its dealers and attract business? And, as most NoD dealers are newbies, doesn't this amount to an attempt to leap-frog the conventional method of building a trusting customer base (via long-term relationships) through this marketing campaign? Not to single you out, but it seems a little like the following – “yeah, I know you hadn’t heard of Esquirecomics or Mark Zaid until very recently. And yeah, I’ve only been seriously involved in GA vintage books for like 2 or 3 years now. But trust me like you would someone with whom you’ve been transacting for 20 years because I say I am trustworthy, and because I am part of a self-funded organization that also says so. Oh, and best of all, if you buy from me and discover some undetectable enhancement that I didn’t disclose, I will refund your money.”

 

I am surprised by your comments, as I thought NoD had more fundamental and noble motives. What am I missing?

 

I can't speak for Mark, but I can speak for myself and what I think NOD is all about. Fundamentally, it is not just about pressing. It is about disclosing all you know about a book, in terms of what may have been done to improve its appearance, grade or state of preservation. While restoration certainly is the sexiest thing to disclose, disclosure should not be limited to that. If you know something about the state of preservation that could lead to the book degrading, and isn't readily determined by a scan or through the mylar, etc., disclose.

 

It is about keeping the playing field level and being honest, upfront and forthright in your dealings with other collectors.

 

Does the NOD think pressing damages books? Not as a collective mentality to be sure. There are those who do, and those who don't in terms of the members. Do I think it damages a book? No, I have no evidence to prove it does.

 

Do I think pressing and all other resto should be disclosed. Absolutely.

 

Lastly, do I think a disclosed pressed book would sell for less money than a like graded non-pressed or a non-disclosed pressed book? Yes.

 

But, I have been wrong about the market many times before. Perhaps, if all pressed books were disclosed it may remove the stigma from pressing and the lines would eventually blur and the prices realized would be closer.

 

Speculation though.

[G.A.tor]

well said

rick

[esquirecomics]

QUOTE: "And this is exactly right, Peter is expressing his own personal views and perceptions. As a matter of fact they are not consistent with the NOD or its history as an organization..."

 

Just saw this. Mark, not that I really care or want to belabor this, but because you’ve decided to insert yourself, and with such arbitrary dismissive comments...

 

It seems your memory is very kind to you. I recall many of the early NoD discussions, and I remember you and at least 2 other NoD members claiming on various threads that pressed books sell for less than their un-pressed counterparts. And I recall you telling me your pro-disclosure focus was due to your NDP Gaines Mad #1 experience. So, you're now claiming that the people who organized and run NoD had (and have) no influence on its workings?

 

Then tell me: if NoD doesn’t, on any level, believe pressing devalues books or is at all harmful, then what’s NoD’s value? Is NoD simply doing what every other reputable dealer already does – providing disclosure? If so, then isn’t NoD exactly what I said it was on another thread – a collector-subsidized (via dues) marketing campaign to distinguish its dealers and attract business? And, as most NoD dealers are newbies, doesn't this amount to an attempt to leap-frog the conventional method of building a trusting customer base (via long-term relationships) through this marketing campaign? Not to single you out, but it seems a little like the following – “yeah, I know you hadn’t heard of Esquirecomics or Mark Zaid until very recently. And yeah, I’ve only been seriously involved in GA vintage books for like 2 or 3 years now. But trust me like you would someone with whom you’ve been transacting for 20 years because I say I am trustworthy, and because I am part of a self-funded organization that also says so. Oh, and best of all, if you buy from me and discover some undetectable enhancement that I didn’t disclose, I will refund your money.”

 

I am surprised by your comments, as I thought NoD had more fundamental and noble motives. What am I missing?

 

Actually you're missing a lot Peter. As usual you try to apply my personal statements to prevent you from creating a revisionist history to that of NOD policy when I was not speaking for the NOD as an organization.

 

Frankly Ciorac expressed my sentiments as to your specific questions so I won't repeat them again.

 

But let me clarify a couple of facts. For one thing, though, your memory is simply faulty. I am not sure how in the world you can claim I told you my pro-disclosure stance came about from my Mad #1 CGC 9.8 experience. I helped create the NOD starting in early 2006. The organization went public in Summer 2006. Yet I didn't even find out about my CGC 9.8 copy previously having been a CGC 9.6 until April 10, 2007. In the "Mad #1 CGC 9.8 Gaines File Copy On Ebay" thread I posted on that date the following:

 

Now, I just noticed for the first time that my copy was apparently previously a CGC 9.6. The 4/12 copy was sold as such by Heritage on July 17, 2003, for $24,150. Had I known this at the time of my purchase in 2005 (a time I was not truly cognizant of the pressing/resubbing manipulation CGC game certain people undertake for purely profiteering reasons, I would not have purchased my copy for that price). Whether it was pressed or resubbed, I have no idea, but I am not happy to discover that either or both occurred. There is only one 9.6 copy in the census so CGC was complicit in this grading change. I know views differ, and so be it, but this is what I hate about this hobby.

 

My Post

 

Nor, as can plainly be seen above, did I claim as you say that the book had been pressed. It could simply have been a resubmission. I have no idea.

 

As far as your claim that most NOD member-dealers are "newbies", I suppose that depends on one's definition of "newbie" but the NOD member-dealers (and I include part-time as well as full-time), to the best of my knowledge, have the following experience:

 

Mark S. Zaid, Committee Member - dealer, 1984-85,90, 2004-present

 

William Ponseti, Committee Member - dealer, owned comic stores during the 1990s

 

Brent Moeshlin, Alternate Committee Member - dealer, 2000 - present

 

Marnin Rosenberg, Director Of Communications - dealer, more than 30+ years

 

Jamie Newbold - dealer, has owned a comic book store for more than 10 years

 

Joel Pollack - dealer, has owned comic books stores for more than 20 years

 

Bill Ryan - dealer, owned comic book stores in the 1980s and 1990s

 

Rick Whitlock - dealer, has owned a comic book store for several years

 

These are just the ones I know of off the top of my head. Many of the NOD members, of course, have collecting experience that go back 30+ years and numerous other members have been dealers at one point in the past or sell part-time now on e-bay or elsewhere and have built up years of trust with their customers.

 

The bottom line for me as to what the NOD is all about is quite simple. It is about creating a level playing field for everyone, but especially buyers, with respect to disclosure of information and ensure that a particular and specific degree of integrity (as set forth in the NOD Guidelines) is maintained in our community membership. Those who join the NOD share similar values and principles, though not necessarily hold the same opinions on some of the issues you raised.

 

Now, does that mean that those dealers/sellers who are not members of the NOD are not trustworthy or lack integrity? Absolutely not. Some of the most trustworthy dealers in our community, many of whom I call friends, are not members of the NOD.

 

At least not yet.

[MrBedrock]

Now, does that mean that those dealers/sellers who are not members of the NOD are not trustworthy or lack integrity? Absolutely not. Some of the most trustworthy dealers in our community, many of whom I call friends, are not, and probably never will be members of the NOD.

 

 

fixed that for you! (thumbs u

[mr.schomburg]

In my business NOD is a bad thing! NOTICE OF DEFAULT..NOD! There is a lot of it going around.

[showcase4]

Now, does that mean that those dealers/sellers who are not members of the NOD are not trustworthy or lack integrity? Absolutely not. Some of the most trustworthy dealers in our community, many of whom I call friends, are not, and probably never will be members of the NOD.

 

 

fixed that for you! (thumbs u

 

Richard,

Just curious.....why do you feel this way? ( and so strongly about it ). There is no right or wrong answer....just wondering. You and I are complete opposites with our activities in the comic world...I'm a little guy / you' re a big guy. I sell on eBay part time, and you are a full time dealer with several stores and an Overstreet Advisor. ( (thumbs u )

 

With that said, you and I are very similar in that we operate very ethically, wih full disclosure and a quest for customer satisfaction. I am a member of the NOD for 2 reasons primarily:

 

1. I have always been a full disclosure seller, so the ideals and principles of the NOD are in harmony with how I do business.

 

2. As a 'little guy', I am always looking to build my credentials and credibility, especially since many of my eBay sales are in the $3,000+ range. This is also why I am a member of SquareTrade on eBay.....it gives buyers who don't know me some additional peace of mind that I am l legit. My eBay auctions post the SquareTrade logo and the NOD logo.......great for buyer confidence.

 

Care to share your views?

Steve

[nearmint]

Having watched CNN this morning, I think Richard might be too busy treading water to respond.

[MrBedrock]

Now, does that mean that those dealers/sellers who are not members of the NOD are not trustworthy or lack integrity? Absolutely not. Some of the most trustworthy dealers in our community, many of whom I call friends, are not, and probably never will be members of the NOD.

 

 

fixed that for you! (thumbs u

 

Richard,

Just curious.....why do you feel this way? ( and so strongly about it ). There is no right or wrong answer....just wondering. You and I are complete opposites with our activities in the comic world...I'm a little guy / you' re a big guy. I sell on eBay part time, and you are a full time dealer with several stores and an Overstreet Advisor.

 

With that said, you and I are very similar in that we operate very ethically, wih full disclosure and a quest for customer satisfaction. I am a member of the NOD for 2 reasons primarily:

 

1. I have always been a full disclosure seller, so the ideals and principles of the NOD are in harmony with how I do business.

 

2. As a 'little guy', I am always looking to build my credentials and credibility, especially since many of my eBay sales are in the $5,000+ range. This is also why I am a member of SquareTrade on eBay.....it gives buyers who don't know me some addtional peace of mind that I am l legit. My eBay auctions have the SquareTr

 

Hopefully this won't open a new can of worms, but since you asked....

As you said, I also conduct my business with ethics and customer satisfaction first and foremost among my priorities. Always have. I am very confident that if someone shops with me, whether they buy anything or not, that they will continue to shop with me.

To me, the real question is why should I join NOD?

As a business, I already disclose.

As a business, I doubt that joining will bring me any additional business.

As a business, I doubt that anyone will stop shopping with me because I haven't joined.

Personally, I am already friends with many of the current members.

Personally, I don't see any reason to join to make new friends or join a new clique.

Personally, my time is committed, so I couldn't contribute in any meaningful way.

These are some of the things I have taken into consideration.

One of the biggest things I have considered is the fact that if I were to join I would be the largest full-time dealer to be a member. With that would come a certain lightning rod effect and PR responsibility that I am just not prepared to deal with.

Frankly, when I am set up at a convention, the last thing in the world I would want to be talking about are the goings-on of NOD. I would much rather be looking at comics, selling comics, and talking comics.

 

[LearnedHand]

Mark, this is patently ridiculous. You and I had a 3+ hour phone discussion in early 2006, well before NoD went public, and at that time you told me that your Mad #1 had been pressed. And during that call you told me that your Mad experience was a chief reason why you were pro-disclosure. You even likened yourself to John Walsh, the “Cops” TV show guy who became active in a cause after he, similarly, had a personal incident befall him.

 

 

Quote: “Mark S. Zaid, Committee Member - dealer, 1984-85,90, 2004-present.”

 

Then call me a 30+ year dealer, as I sold books to classmates in 3rd – 6th grade, and in high school. Seriously, you’re conveniently missing the point. It’s irrelevant if someone like Ponsetti joined a few months ago. He wasn’t there during NoD’s embryonic stage, thus, he was not part of the motives for NoD’s formation and current mission/policies. Brent, you, Marnin, Brad (Red Hook), Jim, and maybe one other person whose name escapes me (as far as active core participants) were. If you’re claiming Brent has been a recognized full-time dealer since 2000, that’s fantasy. Your level of experience is clear. Of the others, only Marnin (and perhaps that other individual whose name escapes me) is a true long-time dealer.

 

But we’ve digressed. Disclosure is good, and we all know this. But the following is constantly avoided: I thought NoD was about protecting the consumer from harm/loss through disclosure. If NoD doesn’t believe there is any harm or devaluation from non-restorative enhancements (such as pressing), then what exactly is NoD protecting against? Reputable dealers already disclose. So if NoD is simply doing what reputable dealers already do, it seems NoD’s whole purpose has become that which I’ve indicated above and elsewhere – a subsidized marketing campaign to distinguish and promote its members (with the group’s dealers reaping the benefits). If so, that’s fine. I just don’t know why you’re always more interested in making personal attacks and dancing around the issue than in simply being straightforward.

 

 

 

[showcase4]

But the following is constantly avoided: I thought NoD was about protecting the consumer from harm/loss through disclosure. If NoD doesn’t believe there is any harm or devaluation from non-restorative enhancements (such as pressing), then what exactly is NoD protecting against? Reputable dealers already disclose.

 

 

Peter,

What happened in the past ( recent past as the NOD is a relatively new organization ) that has had you transition from being a founding NOD member, to a present non-member with an apparent "anti-NOD" stance? (respectfully)

Steve

[nearmint]

But we’ve digressed. Disclosure is good, and we all know this. But the following is constantly avoided: I thought NoD was about protecting the consumer from harm/loss through disclosure. If NoD doesn’t believe there is any harm or devaluation from non-restorative enhancements (such as pressing), then what exactly is NoD protecting against? Reputable dealers already disclose. So if NoD is simply doing what reputable dealers already do, it seems NoD’s whole purpose has become that which I’ve indicated above and elsewhere – a subsidized marketing campaign to distinguish and promote its members (with the group’s dealers reaping the benefits). If so, that’s fine. I just don’t know why you’re always more interested in making personal attacks and dancing around the issue than in simply being straightforward.

 

I'd take issue with a few of your points. I think NOD would have been thrilled if every major dealer had joined the organization from the beginning, so clearly it was not formed with the meager intention of marketing small time dealers in the marketplace.

 

Second, and NOD members might disagree with me here, I don't think any dealer/collector has benefited in the marketplace as a result of membership in NOD. I think being a long-standing member of these boards does FAR more to garner a seller a good reputation among collectors.

 

 

[plady69]

Man, I greated a mess storm with this thread, huh? I did figure that whoever bought it would try to press the hell out of it! Who really cares if it's going into your collection, but I agree that if you are going to try and sell it down the road, you have to say it was pressed. My $2,000.+

[nearmint]

I'm looking forward to seeing a scan when Matt's done with it. I bet it'll look pretty sharp.

[ciorac]

 

It’s irrelevant if someone like Ponseti joined a few months ago. He wasn’t there during NoD’s embryonic stage, thus, he was not part of the motives for NoD’s formation and current mission/policies.

 

Of the others, only Marnin (and perhaps that other individual whose name escapes me) is a true long-time dealer.

 

 

True, I wasn't a member when it was being formed, however as a committee member I have a good deal to say about the organization's current and future mission/policies.

 

If "of the others" you mean the founding members, I can take no issue with you. But, if you mean the NOD as a whole, I'd wager I've been dealing comics as long as Marnin, and certainly longer than you, as I have no idea who you are. If you have been a long time dealer, I'm certain I would know you, as most know me.

 

 

[G.A.tor]

 

It’s irrelevant if someone like Ponsetti joined a few months ago. He wasn’t there during NoD’s embryonic stage, thus, he was not part of the motives for NoD’s formation and current mission/policies.

 

Of the others, only Marnin (and perhaps that other individual whose name escapes me) is a true long-time dealer.

 

 

True, I wasn't a member when it was being formed, however as a committee member I have a good deal to say about the organization's current and future mission/policies.

 

If "of the others" you mean the founding members, I can take no issue with you. But, if you mean the NOD as a whole, I'd wager I've been dealing comics as long as Marnin, and certainly longer than you, as I have no idea who you are. If you have been a long time dealer, I'm certain I would know you, as most know me.

 

and, I began buying and subsequently selling comics in 1988...not that I made it a full time deal of it back then, but we have been full time since 1995...so that puts me right at 13 years, pretty good (and it is Whitelock, can't forget the "e")

gator

[esquirecomics]

Mark, this is patently ridiculous. You and I had a 3+ hour phone discussion in early 2006, well before NoD went public, and at that time you told me that your Mad #1 had been pressed. And during that call you told me that your Mad experience was a chief reason why you were pro-disclosure. You even likened yourself to John Walsh, the “Cops” TV show guy who became active in a cause after he, similarly, had a personal incident befall him.

 

Peter, I have no recollection of ever stating to you in 2006 that I had knowledge of the Mad #1 having been pressed. Perhaps I speculated. I really don't know. Had I known at that time I would have indicated it on my website and certainly mentioned it earlier in a public fashion. I have never shied away from doing so with other books so I can't fathom I would not have done so with respect to this book.

 

Nor, with all due respect, would you have been the only person I would have mentioned that too if I ever mentioned it at all. But I won't say my memory is 100% on every single thing I have ever said. So, if anyone else ever remembers me telling them pre-April 2007 about my Mad #1 being pressed, please let me know.

 

In any event, no one book caused me to become pro-disclosure. I've written about my views on this topic on multiple occasions and won't repeat them here. Please feel free to use the search function and analyze them.

 

Quote: “Mark S. Zaid, Committee Member - dealer, 1984-85,90, 2004-present.”

 

Then call me a 30+ year dealer, as I sold books to classmates in 3rd – 6th grade, and in high school. Seriously, you’re conveniently missing the point. It’s irrelevant if someone like Ponsetti joined a few months ago. He wasn’t there during NoD’s embryonic stage, thus, he was not part of the motives for NoD’s formation and current mission/policies. Brent, you, Marnin, Brad (Red Hook), Jim, and maybe one other person whose name escapes me (as far as active core participants) were. If you’re claiming Brent has been a recognized full-time dealer since 2000, that’s fantasy. Your level of experience is clear. Of the others, only Marnin (and perhaps that other individual whose name escapes me) is a true long-time dealer.

 

Well, for one thing, I wasn't counting the sales I made also during 3rd-6th grade, which as you know (given we are the same age) was 1976-1979. I'll let the other NOD members say whether they are dealers or not and for how long.

 

But we’ve digressed. Disclosure is good, and we all know this. But the following is constantly avoided: I thought NoD was about protecting the consumer from harm/loss through disclosure. If NoD doesn’t believe there is any harm or devaluation from non-restorative enhancements (such as pressing), then what exactly is NoD protecting against? Reputable dealers already disclose. So if NoD is simply doing what reputable dealers already do, it seems NoD’s whole purpose has become that which I’ve indicated above and elsewhere – a subsidized marketing campaign to distinguish and promote its members (with the group’s dealers reaping the benefits). If so, that’s fine. I just don’t know why you’re always more interested in making personal attacks and dancing around the issue than in simply being straightforward.

 

Personal attacks? Peter, give me a break.

 

The NOD Guidelines are on the website for you and everyone else to read.

 

Most dealers, reputable or not, do not affirmatively disclose every type of manipulation that the NOD has recognized as such. NOD members do. Many hobbies have an organization such as the NOD. The Comic community does not. NOD is a fledging organization and continues to grow and transform.

 

You are entitled to your opinions and you can think what you want about the NOD.

[MrBedrock]

Many hobbies have an organization such as the NOD. The Comic community does not.

 

Are you saying the NOD doesn't exist? It is just a figment of our collective imagination? I have been having long discourses, heated discussions, and good-natured ribbing with a ghost?

Man, have I been had!

So what is this thing that the comic community DOES have?

[esquirecomics]

Many hobbies have an organization such as the NOD. The Comic community does not.

 

Are you saying the NOD doesn't exist? It is just a figment of our collective imagination? I have been having long discourses, heated discussions, and good-natured ribbing with a ghost?

Man, have I been had!

So what is this thing that the comic community DOES have?

 

Ok, ok, you caught me when I was tired. I drove in from MA today from vacation and I am leaving at 6 am tomorrow for a flight to SD for my Haditha Article 32.

 

It should have more properly read: "The Comic Community did not have such an organization until the NOD."

 

But even this is not entirely accurate given the existence of the American Association of Comic Book Collectors, which unfortunately has basically gone dormant. Nevertheless, the AACC and the NOD share many of the same values and principles and we hope to continue the good work they started.