Jaydogrules

Fair enough. But I don't make the site to be anything more than it is.... a free and useful resource for identifying and tracking down tough variants (particularly the ones with staying power). I have respect and appreciation for someone who is willing to devote that much time to one topic and cull the information together in one spot for easy use and reference. I also like the way he updates his information and numbers to keep the site as accurate as possible. (thumbs u And yes the 667 Dell'otto is definitely the pride and joy of the modern ASM variant run. -J.

Chuck, thank you for weighing in. Now are you saying that retailer incentive variants are *included* in those print runs (as opposed to the other purchased variant types which I have already conceded may be included in the totals)? And if you are saying that, do you believe that makes the comichron reported domestic sales totals a wholly insufficient means of ballparking the print run of a particular retailer incentive variant (after factoring in internationals)? -J. Retailer incentive variants (or in this case, NON-incentive variants) are included in the print run total. Diamond does not differentiate between a regular cover and a variant in their print run totals. If they DID - (by showing JUST the regular cover print run - then they actually WOULD be contributing to giving us information to figure out the variant print run total...see? And yes, I think it makes it very difficult to figure out what an exact print run of a variant is. And I think the publishers prefer to have it that way. Not exact print totals. But an estimate (which it can only ever be that due to the additional murky international reporting). In other words, do you know of any other (or better way) to ballpark the print run of a retailer incentive variant cover, if not using comichron's domestic report, and then factoring in the inevitable, additional international numbers to get a *reasonable* idea of what is out there? "Reasonable" being the operative word. Since "nobody knowin' nothin'" doesn't seem like a likely scenario. -J. Even using reverse math, 500 Club showed the flaw in using simple division, and truthfully, since it's something Diamond doesn't report, and the publishers don't report - honestly, the print run could be much, much higher than anyone says or thinks or believes. Remember - the secondary market means NOTHING to a publisher - they make the money from the initial sale - so making sure they have enough of those books to go around is a good thing for them. And putting another 50-100 copies of it in the hands of Midtown Comics wouldn't shock me at all. The other thing is... I wouldn't have the first clue what a books international numbers are... not even a ballpark number.... It's funny you say this. I was actually going to make a similar point but decided not to because it is speculative in nature. But the import is well taken nonetheless. Point being it's is a safe assumption that there are likely even MORE of this variant out there than even the most liberal of estimates, based on, if nothing else, the hype of the character and being a "#1". -J.

He doesn't say 667 had a "low print run". He says it had "much lower preorders" than 666, which it did. Also, his print run estimates cited include international. -J.

Chuck, thank you for weighing in. Now are you saying that retailer incentive variants are *included* in those print runs (as opposed to the other purchased variant types which I have already conceded may be included in the totals)? And if you are saying that, do you believe that makes the comichron reported domestic sales totals a wholly insufficient means of ballparking the print run of a particular retailer incentive variant (after factoring in internationals)? -J. Retailer incentive variants (or in this case, NON-incentive variants) are included in the print run total. Diamond does not differentiate between a regular cover and a variant in their print run totals. If they DID - (by showing JUST the regular cover print run - then they actually WOULD be contributing to giving us information to figure out the variant print run total...see? And yes, I think it makes it very difficult to figure out what an exact print run of a variant is. And I think the publishers prefer to have it that way. Not exact print totals. But an estimate (which it can only ever be that due to the additional murky international reporting). In other words, do you know of any other (or better way) to ballpark the print run of a retailer incentive variant cover, if not using comichron's domestic report, and then factoring in the inevitable, additional international numbers to get a *reasonable* idea of what is out there? "Reasonable" being the operative word. Since "nobody knowin' nothin'" doesn't seem like a likely scenario. -J.

Chuck, thank you for weighing in. Now are you saying that retailer incentive variants are *included* in those print runs (as opposed to the other purchased variant types which I have already conceded may be included in the totals)? And if you are saying that, do you believe that makes the comichron reported domestic sales totals a wholly insufficient means of ballparking the print run of a particular retailer incentive variant (after factoring in internationals)? -J.

I respect your opinion, but it is actually a specialty site and resource tool for variant hunters and the like. And for my money I put far more weight on the educated estimates of a guy with no skin in the game, who has run a FREE site for the better part of a decade, dedicated to analyzing and calculating the exact type of data at issue here, solely for the service of other fans and out of love for the hobby, than on the carnival barks of a couple of guys with books to sell. (thumbs u -J. I hope that point comes across to many here because its a very important distinction. Here's an even clearer distinction: rather than using the 'educated estimates' of a fan website, use the actual statements of the sites posting the data from Diamond, Comichron and IcV2, as posted by carcrawfordfan and bababooey earlier in the thread. You can ONLY make educated estimates because DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. Nothing you or anyone else has linked to says what you say it does. In fact, the main link your buddy who says there's only 500 copies of this thing around (300 of which have evidently been offered for sale in the last month) actually proves the OPPOSITE point. And here you go again, still attempting to con the readers of these boards with your specious nonsense. -J. Diamond does disclose total sales, though. Those sales include variants. Your repeated point that Diamond doesn't disclose the print runs of variants is correct. You don't need to repeat it; we'll take it as fact. They do, however, give a total number that includes the various different covers. I will contact John Jackson Miller at Comichron, and see if he will post here. Yes please do that. Whether you choose to accept it or not, there are (at least) 2500 copies of this book out there, based on its print run. Not a ton, but certainly quite a bit for a variant. Ballparking a variant print run based on Comichron numbers is the truest, easiest, most likely to be accurate (and probably only) way of getting an IDEA of how many are out there. Factoring out the shops who may not have ordered enough to qualify, whatever bought blanks or other miscellaneous non-incentive covers are thrown in there, and then factoring IN international sales which can boost the sales total up to 30% higher, you will GENERALLY find that the comichron posted print run is the best way to figure it. -J. PS: He is not going to tell you what you want to hear. (thumbs u

I respect your opinion, but it is actually a specialty site and resource tool for variant hunters and the like. And for my money I put far more weight on the educated estimates of a guy with no skin in the game, who has run a FREE site for the better part of a decade, dedicated to analyzing and calculating the exact type of data at issue here, solely for the service of other fans and out of love for the hobby, than on the carnival barks of a couple of guys with books to sell. (thumbs u -J. I was trying to get clarity on the source information & trying to relate that public data to the experiences, assumptions and assertions that were shared in this thread. I came to my own conclusion & posted it as clearly as I could so others could understand MY opinion - this discussion has come up before right, so rather than be dodgy about sharing my opinion, I posted it. If others disagreed with it, they could challenge or correct me & that's fine since I also made assumptions. Also, I'm not sure if I'd characterize that site as having NO skin in the game if they offer books for sale about us linky I don't care much for errors or rare variants as an area of collecting focus anyways, I have some of both but I don't actively seek out either and wouldn't spend real money on any of them. Having a "small collection" of unspecified books in a personal collection potentially for sale (and/or for trade I would imagine) is hardly a harbinger of bias or lack of objectivity. Especially considering the sheer breadth and amounts of books featured on the site. If the guy linked to his personal ebay store instead of all general ebay listings on each book's page you would have a point. But to term his small footnote at the bottom of his page referencing his small collection a "skin in the game" is a bit disingenuous IMO. -J.

I respect your opinion, but it is actually a specialty site and resource tool for variant hunters and the like. And for my money I put far more weight on the educated estimates of a guy with no skin in the game, who has run a FREE site for the better part of a decade, dedicated to analyzing and calculating the exact type of data at issue here, solely for the service of other fans and out of love for the hobby, than on the carnival barks of a couple of guys with books to sell. (thumbs u -J. I hope that point comes across to many here because its a very important distinction. Here's an even clearer distinction: rather than using the 'educated estimates' of a fan website, use the actual statements of the sites posting the data from Diamond, Comichron and IcV2, as posted by carcrawfordfan and bababooey earlier in the thread. You can ONLY make educated estimates because DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. Nothing you or anyone else has linked to says what you say it does. In fact, the main link your buddy who says there's only 500 copies of this thing around (300 of which have been offered for sale in the last month on ebay alone) actually proves the OPPOSITE point. And here you go again, still attempting to con the readers of these boards with your specious nonsense. -J.

I respect your opinion, but it is actually a specialty site and resource tool for variant hunters and the like. And for my money I put far more weight on the educated estimates of a guy with no skin in the game, who has run a FREE site for the better part of a decade, dedicated to analyzing and calculating the exact type of data at issue here, solely for the service of other fans and out of love for the hobby, than on the carnival barks of a couple of guys with books to sell. (thumbs u -J.

Cue famous Journey song. -J.

I approve two out of three of this message. -J. So you disagree on the sold variants being included in the totals sold? I do. That only applies to Loot Crate sales. This is why comichron goes out of its way to parse out Loot Crate orders from regular distribution books (which S G #1 was). -J. I think the Loot Crate thing was due to the impact of the high numbers - there's nothing that has been posted or linked anywhere that says other variants aren't reported in the numbers - you're the only one reading it that way...heck, one of the quotes from that JJM guy says "variants AND Loot Crate" Also, how do you think they report market data, revenue, etc...from this same data if they aren't reporting (counting) items that are being sold? That doesn't make any sense - a retailer buys 50 regular covers, 20 Scottie Youngs & 10 blanks - ICV/Comichon mark him down for 50? Diamond will obviously have its own internal data. As far as the reporting to comichron the number of variants sold... No, they don't do that. As far as I know, they never have. -J. I know your focus is incentive variants - yet you are you lumping all variants together and there's no reason for Diamond to not disclose the sales and revenue figures through their normal channels of public disclosure ICV2/Comichron. I agree there is no disclosure or breakdown of specific print runs for each variant type but when gross sales figures are reported and market shares are determined - there's no reason to not disclose gross totals. That's why you need to differentiate a sold item from an incentive item. I have clicked a couple links to that recalled comics site and while some of their estimates seem accurate, they are still just an aftermarket speculator site. Yes I will grant you that is a reasonable assumption. You will still find comichron's flat domestic reported sales figures the easiest way to calculate an incentive variant print run however, because, again, whatever miscellaneous shortage that might be created by those "sold item variants" versus the regular covers in their total will easily be made up for by international sales. Basically making it a wash either way. Which has been my point from the beginning. And I agree with zacrew, this has been a rather insipid debate. -J.

I approve two out of three of this message. -J. So you disagree on the sold variants being included in the totals sold? I do. That only applies to Loot Crate sales. This is why comichron goes out of its way to parse out Loot Crate orders from regular distribution books (which S G #1 was). -J. I think the Loot Crate thing was due to the impact of the high numbers - there's nothing that has been posted or linked anywhere that says other variants aren't reported in the numbers - you're the only one reading it that way...heck, one of the quotes from that JJM guy says "variants AND Loot Crate" Also, how do you think they report market data, revenue, etc...from this same data if they aren't reporting (counting) items that are being sold? That doesn't make any sense - a retailer buys 50 regular covers, 20 Scottie Youngs & 10 blanks - ICV/Comichon mark him down for 50? Diamond will obviously have its own internal data. As far as the reporting to comichron the number of variants sold... No, they don't do that. As far as I know, they never have. -J.

You've come to the same conclusion as 99.9% of this thread's readers. ...or not. That doesn't say what you want it to either. It says the variants helped the book to sell "over 200,000 copes". How much "over"? We don't know. Why? DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. And who are you kidding? Obviously- and I mean obviously- the easiest, best, and most efficient way of ballparking a variant print run is to reference comichron's domestic sales figures. Whatever shortages you would like to glean from this or that or whatever are handily off-set by the *additional* sales figures from international. I'm not so sure why you get your knickers in such a twist over the 2500 estimated print run of this Hughes variant, when that is, in fact, the only *reasonable* figure that can be estimated based on the print run figures before us. Frankly your insistence on trying to perpetrate this con job on these boards that the book is somehow "rare" is disconcerting, to say the least. -J. Shine on, crazy diamond! +1 These are the most insane rebuttals I have ever seen. Any and all facts are just thrown out the window because of 2 talking points that have no bearing on anything: 1)recalledcomics.com---who just divides print runs/ratios of variants and provides zero insight or facts other than that really hard to come by information. 2)DIAMOND DOES NOT RELEASE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS--which no one has ever said they do. I do apologize to the board because I get how boring and back and forth this is. The only "facts" I've seen from you is that a book with a 250k+ print run has a 1:100 variant with only 500 copies printed. And that neither ASM 678 or 700 had any retailer incentive variants offered. -J.

I approve two out of three of this message. -J. So you disagree on the sold variants being included in the totals sold? He does. With you, me, carcrawfordfan, Larry and John Jackson Miller. Your horns are starting to show again.... -J.

I approve two out of three of this message. -J. So you disagree on the sold variants being included in the totals sold? I do. That only (possibly) applies to Loot Crate orders. This is why comichron goes out of its way to parse out Loot Crate orders from regular distribution books (which S G #1 was), and why books sold this way have exaggerated sales figures. -J.

You've come to the same conclusion as 99.9% of this thread's readers. ...or not. That doesn't say what you want it to either. It says the variants helped the book to sell "over 200,000 copes". How much "over"? We don't know. Why? DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. And who are you kidding? Obviously- and I mean obviously- the easiest, best, and most efficient way of ballparking a variant print run is to reference comichron's domestic sales figures. Whatever shortages you would like to glean from this or that or whatever are handily off-set by the *additional* sales figures from international. I'm not so sure why you get your knickers in such a twist over the 2500 estimated print run of this Hughes variant, when that is, in fact, the only *reasonable* figure that can be estimated based on the print run figures of the main cover before us. Frankly your insistence on trying to perpetrate this con job on these boards that the book is somehow "rare" is disconcerting, to say the least. -J.

I approve two out of three of this message. -J.

-J.

...except he didn't say that, and there is nowhere in that article where you can quote him saying that. I CAN quote him: 'Star Wars #1 from Marvel was the chart-topper: the comic book is reported by its publisher to have sales over a million copies, helped by an unprecedented number of variant covers and boosted by special editions for Loot Crate and other channels'. How did they get sales of over a million copies? An unprecedented number of variant covers AND the Loot Crate and other special editions. And, yeah, SG isn't a Loot Crate book, but that's irrelevant. All we want to know is that Comichron includes 'unprecedented numbers of variant covers' and 'special editions' of 'other channels'. ( ie store variants) in their totals. Referring you back to my earlier reply, and why you are still wrong: And here you are still trying to compare a loot crate book to one that was not a loot crate book. So there's your first problem. And then secondly, the article states that in effect, including variants that sales of SW #1 were "over a million". Yet NOT counting variants, as reported by comichron, the sales of the regular cover were just 985,976 (but the Loot Crate order skews this number high, hence the asterisk). After factoring in an undisclosed number of variants I'm sure the total sales were "over a million". But by how much? We don't know for sure. Why is that? BECAUSE DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. -J. And PS: Nowhere in that article does anyone state that variants are ever included in comichron's totals either, by the way. Because they aren't.

...except he didn't say that, and there is nowhere in that article where you can quote him saying that. Plus he is discussing Loot Crate books, which S G #1 was not. You are also approaching "troll" status by the way. (thumbs u -J.

Dude, with this post, you just lost whatever little credibility you might have had, and are getting dangerously close to "troll" territory. Just a heads up. (thumbs u -J. You are hilarious. This is the only info on that site that says anything about how they get the numbers they get: Notes: [1] Quantities of comics are estimates of what was printed and distributed world-wide; as most publishers do not disclose actual print run data these are just estimates and should be treated as such. Also the number that actually exist today will likely be smaller and, in some cases, much smaller. Feel free to point me in the direction of any facts on there or anyone who has ever used that site as a reference for anything that can't be googled in 2 seconds. Yup. And the estimate for the Hughes variant is 2500 based on the same criteria, since we have now (re)- established that the print runs of variants are not disclosed by diamond to comichron or anyone else publicly. (thumbs u -J.

Dude, with this post, you just lost whatever little credibility you might have had, and are getting dangerously close to "troll" territory. Just a heads up. (thumbs u -J.

That's a bit off. JayDog is saying the 254K reported sales for SG 1 is just regular covers, so use the 1:100 ratio to arrive at 2500 copies. The overwhelming view is that the 254K includes regular covers, blanks, Young's, and shop and specialty variant covers. Thus, the 1:100 is applied to a much smaller actual number of regular covers. Right, my 100 K sample explains that showing how a book with only a 25-1 & a 100-1 incentive might prove him right. (about incentives not being reported as part of the print/sales runs) I wasn't agreeing to his print run estimate for Spider-Gwen 1 (which has all those other variants) but I was trying to create a reality where the incentive variant numbers WEREN'T included in the totals reported by Diamond/ICV2/Comichron. And they aren't. And my reasoning behind it is clear. Diamond does not disclose print runs of variants and comichron does not report international sales. Some have been straining to rope in loot crate numbers (irrelevant since this was not a loot crate book) and/or state "well diamond doesn't report the print runs of variants but maybe they do in bulk to comichron or something.". Wrong. NO VARIANT FIGURES ARE DISCLOSED BY DIAMOND. Let me say it again: NO VARIANT FIGURES ARE DISCLOSED BY DIAMOND. Variant covers have their own unique print runs and they are not reported by diamond. Loot crate is its own animal. Hence why it's got an asterisk every time. That means the book was not a standard distribution book. If Spider Gwen #1 was a loot crate book there might be a point. But it wasn't. So that point is moot. NO VARIANT FIGURES ARE DISCLOSED BY DIAMOND. The Hughes variant had AT LEAST 2500 copies printed and distributed with the MASSIVE print run of 250k+ copies of the regular cover printed, plus international. It is not rare. Deal with it. -J. I don't care about the Gwen count but if you're saying there are 254K regular covers out there and all the rest are unaccounted for and not a reported revenue stream then go with that My point is that a "sold" variant (store variant, blank, non-incentive) will cost a store money and WILL BE included in the Diamond/ICV2/Comichon numbers. I'm just trying to figure out whether the incentive variants (provided to retailers based on regular cover sales) are or are not included in the sales figures being reported. I think I was agreeing with you in thinking that the incentive covers may not be included in Diamond's sales numbers. I don't agree with how you are coming to that conclusion though but just keep repeating the same thing in caps without explanation - I'm sure you'll get everyone to see things your way. (thumbs u They aren't. I am not a fan of anecdotal evidence but I'm about to cite some here since that's all we really have (and it is better than the "no evidence" others are using). Recalledcomics.com is a well-respected resource often cited on these boards as a reliable authority on matters pertaining to this discussion. The guy has been around for years, and lives and breathes this stuff. And he actually does have an inside lead on how to ballpark a retailer incentive variant print run. You'll notice a pattern here: ASM 678: Domestic Print Run: 54,252 1:50 Retailer Incentive Approximate Print Run of Variant: 800 http://www.recalledcomics.com/AmazingSpider-Man678MaryJaneVenom.php ASM 700 (Ditko): Domestic Print Run: 200,966 1:200 Retailer Incentive Approximate Print Run of Variant: 900 http://www.recalledcomics.com/AmazingSpider-Man700DitkoVariant.php EosV #2 (Land) Domestic Print Run: 54,415 1:25 Retailer Incentive Approximate Print Run of Variant: 2000 http://www.recalledcomics.com/EdgeOfSpider-Verse2-Variant.php Notice how the print runs of the variants is very consistent with the sales figures quoted by comichron. Any slight differences in print orders attributed to smaller shops is usually quite handily offset by the international sale figures. This is indisputable. That's because comichron only reports on the print run of the main cover. (thumbs u -J.

It's pretty clear from this that Diamond's sales figures released to Comichron include variants. Are these text pieces direct from Comichron? Yes, they are. Game over. Right from the horse's mouth, John Jackson Miller and Comichron are using Diamond totals that include variants and ordering incentive books. Therefore to calculate the population of 1:100 books, you need to ballpark the regular covers shipped. That means subtracting incentives and store/specialty variants. ...except that's not what is said in the article, and your interpretation is incorrect. Plus, oh yeah, Spider Gwen #1 wasn't a loot crate book. -J. Let's run through interpretation. Look above, at the bolded text after 2). Read this part: Star Wars 1 from Marvel was the chart topper... helped by an unprecedented number of variant covers... In basic English, 'helped by an unprecedented number of variant covers', means that those unprecedented numbers were included in the sales figures. Therefore, the glaringly obvious conclusion is that Comichron is including variants in its sales totals. Uh-huh. And here you are still trying to compare a loot crate book to one that was not a loot crate book. So there's your first problem. And then secondly, the article states that in effect, including variants that sales of SW #1 were "over a million". Yet NOT counting variants, as reported by comichron, the sales of the regular cover were 985,976. After factoring in an undisclosed number of variants I'm sure the total sales were "over a million". But by how much? We don't know for sure. Why is that? BECAUSE DIAMOND DOES NOT DISCLOSE THE PRINT RUNS OF VARIANTS. -J.

Your reasoning is clear. It's also wrong. You are right: no variant figures are disclosed by Diamond. But even though they don't release them individually, they release them in toto to Comichron. That much is VERY CLEAR in the Comichron narrative above. No it isn't. And it doesn't say that. That article is about loot crate books and it's effect on Comichron's numbers and why it gets asterisked out from the other books and sales figues Apples and oranges my friend. Apples and oranges. -J.