Jaydogrules

Thank you Blaze I have made that correction in my post regarding the 25% of OPG. (thumbs u I feel this has been the problem more or less with a lot of the responses in this thread... seizing upon the minutiae of a post and glossing over the main points of a post. And I'm not a dealer, I don't look at comics that way. I understand that you are and you do, and I understand that is why a lot of DEALERS would take the cerebus. I, on the other hand (like the vast majority of buyers) am a collector, not a dealer. If I was a dealer that looked for flipping potential in a book after much effort (ie pressing), and I had time to wait for an interested buyer to eventually show up I would probably pick the cerebus 1. If I found a hulk 181 9.2 for a song, that looked pressable and I needed money quickly, I would take the 181. I might make less money in the long run, but at least I know I would have a quick turnaround on my investment. Time is money. But this isn't about what a dealer would do. Again, this thread is about the real world values of a hulk 181/cerebus 1, 9.2 versus what OPG reported in the 2014 guide, and how it skewed his BA rankings. -J. I'm not so much a dealer as an investor. I try to use arbitrage to upgrade my collection. If I need cash for stuff like taxes or medical deductibles then I will take some money off the table. I don't work shows and stuff so I have to rely on guys like Dale, Donut and TopNotch for non Internet related sales info. I've stated before this is a close call. The recent strong sales of 181 weren't accessible when the 2014 OPG was released. I don't think anyone knew the Hulk keys, #'s 1, 181, 271, would perform so well. Next year these two might flip again. I, however, do feel the upside of the Cerebus #1 and the facts associated such as no recent sales in high grade=pent up demand, 5 digit sales in 9.4, no copies in 9.6, equate to it being the more desirable book for a dealer/investor in the market right now this very second. If you have not watched the comiclink auctions before there are some great books in the one ending tonight. Sometimes some sell at blow out gpa prices, and other times you can score some deals. They usually have some real nice FF's you could add to that awfully nice sig line you've got already. Thank you Blaze. I am definitely lurking in the weeds in a few lots in that C-Link auction. I am agreeing with your points 100% as a matter of fact. And yes your points expose a flaw in OPG's now out dated methodology. No, he could not have known what a hulk 181 would do this year. Yet his guide cites "2014" values. If the guide reported on 2013 values, in his 2014 edition, I personally would have no gripe, and I doubt the OP would have started the thread. But yes, I would imagine that, after the year the 181 has had, the 2015 OPG will have it handily over the Cerebus. Time will tell... -J. So, the 100+ pages of posts on this subject boil down to the year? Isn't it common sense that OSPG would be reporting on data it received, not data it hasn't received? I remember the argument starting that there were not enough sales of Cerebus 1 for it to be listed higher than IH 181, then the arguments shifted to which character was more popular, then there were lots of numbers (GPA and otherwise) thrown around, and we are now saying OSPG messed up by using the wrong year. Actually the only shifting sands have been those arguing in advance of the cerebus 1. See my post above. And yes OPG got the "2014 value" for hulk 181 wrong. Way wrong. Also part of the OP'S original point and the identical one I am still making now beneath the quick sand of logic being spouted by the opposing position. Oy vay I'm starting to sound like RMA . That's probably my cue to bow out. -J.

This is not true. There has only been a single recorded sale, ever, of a 9.4 Universal Cerebus #1. By definition, it has neither gone up NOR down. The sale you keep citing is a SS 9.4, and the SS market is different from the Universal market. They cannot be reasonably compared. RIP and I have been inter changing blue/yellow sales due simply to the lack of significant sales data for the cerebus 1 But like I said before, if you want to compare like to like, the hulk 181 SS that sold for $3700 utterly destroys anything a 9.2 cerebus 1 SS has ever sold for. Though I am sure that won't stop you from fantasizing what one "might" sell for. I would wager around $2500-$2800 on a good day. Feel free to disagree if you want. Doesn't make me wrong or you right. -J. Once again... For a book with so few 9.0 and up copies in blue label, it's appeal in that blue label increases for HG collector. IT becomes the white whale. The pretty girl who is unavailable. It's enchantment will draw a bigger game hunter. You simply do not understand the marketplace. ....and there you go, arguing out of both sides of your mouth again. Your "white whale" theory is junk. In fact, it only makes the fact that the 9.4 blue cerebus 1 sold for 15% LESS than the 9.4 SS 10 years earlier look even more sad. By your own unfounded and speculative "logic" buyers should have been lining up out the door for the unique opportunity to obtain an elusive example of a blue label 9.4, and that it should have gone for MORE than the SS copy ten years earlier. When in reality, and unfortunately to your own "argument" the book tanked in its very top grade, failing even to reach the heights of its "less desirable" yellow label copy from a decade earlier. Factoring in inflation, and the "blue label bump" that you claim exists, how much would you say that 15% drop in value actually was? Yet you and your compadres still attempt to argue (now counter even to OPG I might add), that a 9.2 would somehow scale the heights of GPA record books and shatter the $3k mark in a blue label, in spite of the fact that the last recorded sale of the 9.2 label SS sold for $2100 (nine years ago) and would more likely than not follow its 9.4 counterpart into a 10-15% price slide in a worst case scenario, or, in a better case scenario, equal the sales price of that SS copy, which also would be, not coincidentally, its OPG value. Your statements are generally spurious, and borderline offensive in your attempts to be condescending and personal. I would recommend that you compare crib notes with your compadres before you click "submit" on your next post so that you are at least walking in the same chorus line in your cerebus 1/OPG apologist parade. -J.

On the one hand, you are the only one "posting your arguments with data and context", and on the other hand, when other people post their arguments with data and context, they are "seizing upon the minutiae of a post and glossing over the main points." It is genuinely (no sarcasm) breathtaking watching you post, Jaydog. You are a master of propaganda. I have no doubt, if you were of a mind, you could be an extremely successful politician. .....or salesman. -J. No, that's not true. Salesmen cannot deliberately lie and expect to be successful in the long term. Politicians can. In fact, they must. Except I haven't "lied" about anything. If anything, that kind of inflammatory mis-characterization is better suited in politics. -J.

You have repeated this...it doesn't mean what you think it means. If you disagree, by definition, you are NOT "like minded." What *I* mean by it is two intelligent, and intelligently debating comic book enthusiasts. -J.

On the one hand, you are the only one "posting your arguments with data and context", and on the other hand, when other people post their arguments with data and context, they are "seizing upon the minutiae of a post and glossing over the main points." It is genuinely (no sarcasm) breathtaking watching you post, Jaydog. You are a master of propaganda. I have no doubt, if you were of a mind, you could be an extremely successful politician. .....or salesman. -J.

This is not true. There has only been a single recorded sale, ever, of a 9.4 Universal Cerebus #1. By definition, it has neither gone up NOR down. The sale you keep citing is a SS 9.4, and the SS market is different from the Universal market. They cannot be reasonably compared. RIP and I have been inter changing blue/yellow sales due simply to the lack of significant sales data for the cerebus 1 But like I said before, if you want to compare like to like, the hulk 181 SS that sold for $3700 utterly destroys anything a 9.2 cerebus 1 SS has ever sold for. Though I am sure that won't stop you from fantasizing what one "might" sell for. I would wager around $2500-$2800 on a good day. Feel free to disagree if you want. Doesn't make me wrong or you right. -J.

I don't know about that. TMNT has been very hit and miss this year. That 5.0 is an extreme all time high so I wouldn't base a buying decision on that one sale. Realistically I probably wouldn't personally pay more than $1800 for a 5.0 TMNT 1. Since I would feel more comfortable paying $2k for a hulk 181 based on its oeuvre of sales in 9.0 grade, I would have to say the 181 has a higher "real" FMV. -J.

Overstreet "speculated" the value at $2100 (consistent with the 2005 sale on a book that has been largely flat, or down in pretty much all grades over that period of time) so I don't see your point. What YOU and your brethren are doing is trying to "speculate" it even higher because the hulk 181 was so clearly UNDERVALUED by OPG in its guide, which queered his list. -J.

False. I supported my statements. See above. And below for that matter. The 8.5 sales don't hurt me as you claim either. Yes its called a cherry pick. If you do not show the changes in value between 2004 and 2014 you are removing the data to support a drop in price. So yes its clearly a cherry pick of the data. Now that's said, I can agree that the book is down from the top grade sale in 2004, but so what. Stating the 9.0 doesn't help me, is another false statement. The 9.4 also went for 9K? Is that also an "outlier"? Please show what you feel I have ignored most and I will gladly address. Your interpretation of the data is your opinion. I do not share it. Yet the irony is that, even if I did accept your opinion (which I don't), the fact that no cerebus 1 9.2 (the grade OPG supposedly relies on) has ever sold publicly for more than even Hulk 181, 9.2's 12 month average (which is $300+ above OPG) is an inconvenient truth that remains. Which is why I repeatedly state that those sales do not help you. But like I said yesterday, like minds are free to disagree. (thumbs u -J. I'm more than happy to agree that no yellow has ever sold higher than the Hulk 181 AVG. $2,310 vs $2,136 I'm also happy to point there are zero 9.2 blue labels 2 9.4's and 4 9.0's. Both recent sales (9.4 and 9.2) were blue labels. So it's clearly something to consider when determining value. (Edit to show prices) ...and I disagree that ONE outlier sale of a 9.0, and ONE other 9.4 sale that's 15% off from a peak price 10 years ago (from the same time frame the last 9.2 sold) are helpful or tell us anything relevant about what a 9.2 "might" go for now. Those two sales (one of which actually represents the book's absolute top grade, for which multiples are routinely paid for in most desirable books) are not more persuasive than the 40+ publicly available sales for hulk 181 in its respective 9.2 grade over a 20-some odd month period. -J. And an increase from the 2009 and 2010 sales So 2 recent blue prices (in 9.0-9.4) aren't helpful to figure out the values of a very rare book where only 6 exist in blue and 11 in yellow? How is one to figure things out? This argument is again like trying to have your cake and eat it too. I find it somewhat disingenuous to tout the allegedly "high sales" for cerebus 1, and support its positioning on the OPG BA list as some kind of evidence that the book is racing up the sales charts, but without acknowledging the fact that the primary (if not only) reason the book sells for what it does in those top grades is its relative scarcity. And then turn around and use the book's scarcity on the census as an "out" to excuse some of its declining/flat sales figures over the last ten years. If you're going to follow this line of logic, you must also apply it to the hulk 181, and tip your hat to it for STILL being able to out - sell the cerebus 1, 9.2 even with its 450+ examples on the census. For if it existed in even half its numbers, one can only assume or imagine what multiple of $2000 more it would sell for. Just as we must also assume that there would be an extreme discount on cerebus 1 from its current sparse sales figures if it existed in even half the numbers as the hulk 181. But again, much like your hypothetical value of what a cerebus 1 "might" sell for in a 9.2 right now, this is all just speculation. What we DO know is that OPG has it valued at $2100 in a 9.2 (most likely correct, and reflective of its last sale) and a 181 9.2 valued at $2000 (obviously IN-correct, as indicated by its 12 month/30 day/most recent publicly recorded sales figures), which all taken together belie the notion that cerebus 1 should be higher on the OPG BA list. -J.

False. I supported my statements. See above. And below for that matter. The 8.5 sales don't hurt me as you claim either. Yes its called a cherry pick. If you do not show the changes in value between 2004 and 2014 you are removing the data to support a drop in price. So yes its clearly a cherry pick of the data. Now that's said, I can agree that the book is down from the top grade sale in 2004, but so what. Stating the 9.0 doesn't help me, is another false statement. The 9.4 also went for 9K? Is that also an "outlier"? Please show what you feel I have ignored most and I will gladly address. Your interpretation of the data is your opinion. I do not share it. Yet the irony is that, even if I did accept your opinion (which I don't), the fact that no cerebus 1 9.2 (the grade OPG supposedly relies on) has ever sold publicly for more than even Hulk 181, 9.2's 12 month average (which is $300+ above OPG) is an inconvenient truth that remains. Which is why I repeatedly state that those sales do not help you. But like I said yesterday, like minds are free to disagree. (thumbs u -J. I'm more than happy to agree that no yellow has ever sold higher than the Hulk 181 AVG. $2,310 vs $2,136 I'm also happy to point there are zero 9.2 blue labels 2 9.4's and 4 9.0's. Both recent sales (9.4 and 9.2) were blue labels. So it's clearly something to consider when determining value. (Edit to show prices) ...and I disagree that ONE outlier sale of a 9.0, and ONE other 9.4 sale that's 15% off from a peak price 10 years ago (from the same time frame the last 9.2 also sold) are helpful or tell us anything relevant about what a 9.2 "might" go for now. Those two sales (one of which actually represents the book's absolute top grade, for which multiples are routinely paid for in most desirable books) are not more persuasive than the 40+ publicly available sales for hulk 181 in its respective 9.2 grade over a 20-some odd month period. -J.

False. I supported my statements. See above. And below for that matter. The 8.5 sales don't hurt me as you claim either. Yes its called a cherry pick. If you do not show the changes in value between 2004 and 2014 you are removing the data to support a drop in price. So yes its clearly a cherry pick of the data. Now that's said, I can agree that the book is down from the top grade sale in 2004, but so what. Stating the 9.0 doesn't help me, is another false statement. The 9.4 also went for 9K? Is that also an "outlier"? Please show what you feel I have ignored most and I will gladly address. Your interpretation of the data is your opinion. I do not share it. Yet the irony is that, even if I did accept your opinion (which I don't), the fact that no cerebus 1 9.2 (the grade OPG supposedly relies on) has ever sold publicly for more than even Hulk 181, 9.2's 12 month average (which is $300+ above OPG) is an inconvenient truth that remains. Which is why I repeatedly state that those other sales do not help you. Should I start talking again about what a Hulk 181 goes for in a 9.8 ($10-$12K)? Or a 9.9 ($150K)? Its top two grades? But like I said yesterday, like minds are free to disagree. (thumbs u -J.

Thank you Blaze I have made that correction in my post regarding the 25% of OPG. (thumbs u I feel this has been the problem more or less with a lot of the responses in this thread... seizing upon the minutiae of a post and glossing over the main points of a post. And I'm not a dealer, I don't look at comics that way. I understand that you are and you do, and I understand that is why a lot of DEALERS would take the cerebus. I, on the other hand (like the vast majority of buyers) am a collector, not a dealer. If I was a dealer that looked for flipping potential in a book after much effort (ie pressing), and I had time to wait for an interested buyer to eventually show up I would probably pick the cerebus 1. If I found a hulk 181 9.2 for a song, that looked pressable and I needed money quickly, I would take the 181. I might make less money in the long run, but at least I know I would have a quick turnaround on my investment. Time is money. But this isn't about what a dealer would do. Again, this thread is about the real world values of a hulk 181/cerebus 1, 9.2 versus what OPG reported in the 2014 guide, and how it skewed his BA rankings. -J. I'm not so much a dealer as an investor. I try to use arbitrage to upgrade my collection. If I need cash for stuff like taxes or medical deductibles then I will take some money off the table. I don't work shows and stuff so I have to rely on guys like Dale, Donut and TopNotch for non Internet related sales info. I've stated before this is a close call. The recent strong sales of 181 weren't accessible when the 2014 OPG was released. I don't think anyone knew the Hulk keys, #'s 1, 181, 271, would perform so well. Next year these two might flip again. I, however, do feel the upside of the Cerebus #1 and the facts associated such as no recent sales in high grade=pent up demand, 5 digit sales in 9.4, no copies in 9.6, equate to it being the more desirable book for a dealer/investor in the market right now this very second. If you have not watched the comiclink auctions before there are some great books in the one ending tonight. Sometimes some sell at blow out gpa prices, and other times you can score some deals. They usually have some real nice FF's you could add to that awfully nice sig line you've got already. Thank you Blaze. I am definitely lurking in the weeds in a few lots in that C-Link auction. I am agreeing with your points 100% as a matter of fact. And yes your points expose a flaw in OPG's now out dated methodology. No, he could not have known what a hulk 181 would do this year. Yet his guide cites "2014" values. If the guide reported on 2013 values, in his 2014 edition, I personally would have no gripe, and I doubt the OP would have started the thread. But yes, I would imagine that, after the year the 181 has had, the 2015 OPG will have it handily over the Cerebus. Time will tell... -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J. I've already addressed your claims regarding the 9.0 being the only bright spot numerous times. Please do not keep stating this. The 9.4 sale is not a price drop, its a price raise from the 2010 sale. Why are we to only count the high sale of 2004, and why not address the 2009, and 2010 sales for 7.7K And its a blue not a yellow. A 2014 sale is a more current sale which better establishes its current value. So even if its a price drop from 2004, the point is moot regarding current values. I've already addressed your circular statement regarding the 8.5 sales as well. Third time posting this, I'll just cut and paste. "But how could the recent 8.5 price drag the price down if the 8.5 went up from last year when the 8.5 sold for $820 and the 9.0 sold for $2500 within a two month time period? Can we agree this statement is false where you claim: "Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I would argue that the 8.5 sale of cerebus 1 that just sold for $850 a few weeks ago drags down the current value of that 9.0 to more in the $1500 range. " Also if we add the Comiclink sale, then there was also a $1050 sale this year. Does that not count, even after the sale is no longer on the site? I have already addressed the blue label staements as well. There are fewer HG Blue labels so its not unheard of to have Blues go for more than Yellow when this happens. In this case the Blues have seemed outperformed the Yellows. The last Yellow sale was 2012 9.0 at $1434. The following year it was $2500 in Blue and in 2005 it was $1750. Now I can say these are the reasons the book has been going up. But there seems to be more than one sale that seems to suggest that the blue label may have something to do with this. Lackluster according to you? But what if the book has gone down then up in between your arbitrary timeline of 10 years, then what? At what point does it not become lackluster? I make no claims of Overstreet values and how he comes to his conclusions. False claim regarding "addressed all of your claims ad nauseum". Never made any claims of hot, But I did state you were incorrect regarding a drop in value. So indeed your claims regarding only a 9.0 sale to support claims was incorrect. I have already shown why pending is meaningless on Comiclink, and by the way, it is no longer pending. Similar grades is a moot point. Low ball offers, moot. Glad I don't need to quote myself another time (thumbs u That's fine. You can disagree here. Clearly since there are limited sales. But its wrong everytime you state that only the 9.0 sale helps. The 9.4 at 9K in addition of a recent 9.0 sales helps determine the price of a high grade copy. If I only had the recent 9.0, then I would have a harder time making claims regarding current values. A) You don't know if that sale on comic link ever closed or consummated either way. Further, (and regardless) it would not be a publicly available sale and will never be reported by GPA, even if it happened. And oh yeah, current offers on the same book in grade do kinda matter, as they are suggestive and representative of market trends and where the book is actually headed, don't-cha think? B) The 9.0 is obviously an outlier since the book never showed an annual appreciation of more than about 2.5% the ten years prior in that grade. Take out that one outlier sale and the book is a complete dud for the last decade in pretty much all grades, top down. C) I have never actually disputed Overstreet's value of 2100 in a 9.2. That is probably correct and what one would go for now. But a Hulk 181 in the same grade goes for more. So overstreet got that part wrong. D) You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one certainly would not suggest investing your money into a short box of cerebus 1's anytime soon. As there seems to be very few interested buyers for the inordinately large amount of copies that are already available on the market. (thumbs u -J. A. Moving the goal posts. Your claim earlier "the sale is consummated when it no longer appears as "pending" on the site and the listing poofs." But we also know this is incorrect as well as sales are finished far before. Why are we now to add yet another extra scrutiny on this sale? So only GPA sales now? Do I have to call Comiclink now? Ever sell a book before? JDog, meet Comiclink. http://www.comiclink.com/ You'll find low ball offers are common. But since you begged the question the current offer is $850. B. But if we look at the 9.4 sale then it seems to fall in line nicely. C. Don't care what Overstreet claims. D. Lots of rare books are on the MKT. Yes, moving the goals posts, as its been clearly shown in the post above. The 8.5 has been slowly on the rise, $820 last year, $850 and $1050 this year. No its not monumental but showing that the book is certainly not dropping. Intimate knowledge by simply looking at Comiclink. Nope I have no copies nor have ever owned a copy. I simply look at the site. We are talking about values of Hulk 181 vs Cerebus, not inflation. The needle hasn't changed because its a blue label, and the only sale. But if we combine sales of blue and yellow, then the "needle" drops and rises. So an analysis based on only the peak price in incorrect. The problem is when you compare the recent 9.4 prices and recent 9.0 price you get an center point that is above what the Hulk 181 as sold for. So yes using only the 9.0 sale is a flawed method everytime you mention it. Using the 10 year peak sale (cherry pick) stance is also clearly flawed everytime you repeat it as shown in posts above. Repeating the claim doesn't support it. The 8.5 sales shows no effect to drop the value of the 9.0 or the 9.4 copies. Who is "they" I have made no clams regarding the $3200 sale. Your comments are clearly shown to be incorrect. And when shown your errors, you often retreat to incorrect claims, side step, repeat a failed premise, cherry pick and move goal posts. All clearly shown. (I am also glad to point out my own error regarding the incorrect 9.0-9.2 sales point) Again with the "you are incorrect" pronouncements without actually showing how or what I am "incorrect" about. No, the 8.5 isn't "increasing" in value in any significant amount. At best you have one $1050 sale sandwiched between two $850 sales (or lower). That doesn't help you. No, I am not "cherry picking" the high sale of a 9.4. The sale is there and it is there when the book was obviously peaking, at least in the GPA era. I understand that this sale does not help you either when compared to the more recent sales, but the fact remains, the book is down in top grade in the GPA era. Yes, a 9.0 cerebus 1, 9.0 suddenly going for $2500, after years of the book increasing in value no more than 2.5% on average over the prior 7 year period, is an obvious outlier. As such, it does not help you. Yes, you have continued to ignore the substantive points of all my posts that are inconvenient to the myth that you evidently wish to promulgate that this book is somehow "on the move", and deserves to be ranked higher than one of (if not the) most significant creations and hottest books of the BA (in ALL grades, top down)--- Hulk 181. -J.

Thank you Blaze I have made that correction in my post regarding the 25% of OPG. (thumbs u I feel this has been the problem more or less with a lot of the responses in this thread... seizing upon the minutiae of a post and glossing over the main points of a post. And I'm not a dealer, I don't look at comics that way. I understand that you are and you do, and I understand that is why a lot of DEALERS would take the cerebus. I, on the other hand (like the vast majority of buyers) am a collector, not a dealer. If I was a dealer that looked for flipping potential in a book after much effort (ie pressing), and I had time to wait for an interested buyer to eventually show up I would probably pick the cerebus 1. If I found a hulk 181 9.2 for a song, that looked pressable and I needed money quickly, I would take the 181. I might make less money in the long run, but at least I know I would have a quick turnaround on my investment. Time is money. But this isn't about what a dealer would do. Again, this thread is about the real world values of a hulk 181/cerebus 1, 9.2 versus what OPG reported in the 2014 guide, and how it skewed his BA rankings. -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J. I've already addressed your claims regarding the 9.0 being the only bright spot numerous times. Please do not keep stating this. The 9.4 sale is not a price drop, its a price raise from the 2010 sale. Why are we to only count the high sale of 2004, and why not address the 2009, and 2010 sales for 7.7K And its a blue not a yellow. A 2014 sale is a more current sale which better establishes its current value. So even if its a price drop from 2004, the point is moot regarding current values. I've already addressed your circular statement regarding the 8.5 sales as well. Third time posting this, I'll just cut and paste. "But how could the recent 8.5 price drag the price down if the 8.5 went up from last year when the 8.5 sold for $820 and the 9.0 sold for $2500 within a two month time period? Can we agree this statement is false where you claim: "Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I would argue that the 8.5 sale of cerebus 1 that just sold for $850 a few weeks ago drags down the current value of that 9.0 to more in the $1500 range. " Also if we add the Comiclink sale, then there was also a $1050 sale this year. Does that not count, even after the sale is no longer on the site? I have already addressed the blue label staements as well. There are fewer HG Blue labels so its not unheard of to have Blues go for more than Yellow when this happens. In this case the Blues have seemed outperformed the Yellows. The last Yellow sale was 2012 9.0 at $1434. The following year it was $2500 in Blue and in 2005 it was $1750. Now I can say these are the reasons the book has been going up. But there seems to be more than one sale that seems to suggest that the blue label may have something to do with this. Lackluster according to you? But what if the book has gone down then up in between your arbitrary timeline of 10 years, then what? At what point does it not become lackluster? I make no claims of Overstreet values and how he comes to his conclusions. False claim regarding "addressed all of your claims ad nauseum". Never made any claims of hot, But I did state you were incorrect regarding a drop in value. So indeed your claims regarding only a 9.0 sale to support claims was incorrect. I have already shown why pending is meaningless on Comiclink, and by the way, it is no longer pending. Similar grades is a moot point. Low ball offers, moot. Glad I don't need to quote myself another time (thumbs u That's fine. You can disagree here. Clearly since there are limited sales. But its wrong everytime you state that only the 9.0 sale helps. The 9.4 at 9K in addition of a recent 9.0 sales helps determine the price of a high grade copy. If I only had the recent 9.0, then I would have a harder time making claims regarding current values. A) You don't know if that sale on comic link ever closed or consummated either way. Further, (and regardless) it would not be a publicly available sale and will never be reported by GPA, even if it happened. And oh yeah, current offers on the same book in grade do kinda matter, as they are suggestive and representative of market trends and where the book is actually headed, don't-cha think? B) The 9.0 is obviously an outlier since the book never showed an annual appreciation of more than about 2.5% the ten years prior in that grade. Take out that one outlier sale and the book is a complete dud for the last decade in pretty much all grades, top down. C) I have never actually disputed Overstreet's value of 2100 in a 9.2. That is probably correct and what one would go for now. But a Hulk 181 in the same grade goes for more. So overstreet got that part wrong. D) You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one certainly would not suggest investing your money into a short box of cerebus 1's anytime soon. As there seems to be very few interested buyers for the inordinately large amount of copies that are already available on the market. (thumbs u -J. A. Moving the goal posts. Your claim earlier "the sale is consummated when it no longer appears as "pending" on the site and the listing poofs." But we also know this is incorrect as well as sales are finished far before. Why are we now to add yet another extra scrutiny on this sale? So only GPA sales now? Do I have to call Comiclink now? Ever sell a book before? JDog, meet Comiclink. http://www.comiclink.com/ You'll find low ball offers are common. But since you begged the question the current offer is $850. B. But if we look at the 9.4 sale then it seems to fall in line nicely. C. Don't care what Overstreet claims. D. Lots of rare books are on the MKT. "Moving the goal posts"? Come on. I have always referred to "publicly available sales data". And again, even if the 8.5 sale happened, it would be bookended by TWO other sales in 8.5 that are $850 (assuming the next one ever actually happens as well), highlighting what I have been saying once again...that the book has been either stagnant or declining in value for the better part of a decade. *On a side note....It sure is coincidental how that sale on comic link suddenly vanished after my original points, and how you seem to have such an intimate knowledge of the inner working of the goings on with the copies of cerebus 1 on there. Perhaps you're the one who has some of his copies on the market right now. Along with the other guy on the boards who couldn't even unload his early back issues for more than 25% of OPG. And I never referred to the 9.4 sale as an outlier, only the 9.0 sale. If a book isn't even keeping up with inflation for nearly a 10 year period in grade, and then suddenly gets a random increase in price, in just that one single book, in that one single grade, that would be considered an "outlier". The 9.4 sale is actually 15% below the peak price paid for the grade ten years ago, and if you look at all the sales in between, the needle hasn't moved in that grade since GPA started keeping records. Like I said, your one high outlier 9.0 sale does not save your book, and it obviously has not reversed the downward/sluggish price trends or revived demand/collector interest, as subsequent sales have demonstrated. So let's recap all the facts that the pro-cerebus 1 folks have either forgotten or ignored: 1) The original point of the thread: To dispute/mock Overstreet for ranking the book above Hulk 181 in like grade; 2) The highest price ever paid for a Cerebus 1, 9.2 SS is $2132 (approximately the value assigned to it in OPG), and I have gone on the record as saying I concur with this value estimation; 3) The highest price paid for a Hulk 181 9.2 is $3200....$1200 more than OPG, and I have gone on the record calling that demonstrably low; 4) The highest price paid for a Hulk 181 9.2 SS is $3700.....also a whole lot more than OPG (and only cited here for the purposes of comparing the books in value SS to SS); 5) Hulk 181's 9.2, 90 day average ($2507) is more than anything paid for a Cerebus 1 9.2 SS, and higher than OPG; 6) Hulk 181's 9.2, 12 month average ($2310) is more than anything paid for a Cerebus 1 9.2 SS, and higher than OPG; 7) Hulk 181's 9.2, 21 last year average ($2054) is only about $80 less than the highest price ever publicly realized for a Cerebus 1, 9.2, and still higher than OPG; This is what makes OPG so very, very wrong with its list. Somehow, someway, the cerebus 1 fans have turned this into a relentless defense and justification for the book's lone positive sale in the last ten years. The have tried to use that one, lone sale to extrapolate a fantastically high, purely hypothetical "what if" price for a 9.2, even as the grade in the other direction (8.5) in fact drags it down, and there has been a 15% net drop in value in its highest grade over the same 10 year period. Yet they have then turned around and stated that the "one" recent 9.2 Hulk 181 sale of $3200 should be ignored, because.....well because I guess it's just a little "too high" for them, and essentially steamrolls anything ever paid for a Cerebus 1 and is inconvenient to their position..... while failing to acknowledge that even the 90 day and 12 month averages on the book are still about 15-20% higher than anything a cerebus 1 has sold for in a 9.2, even at its peak when people cared more about it. There is clearly some denial going on here when it comes to this book. I am not trying to change anyone's minds here, but seriously, take off the rose coloured glasses already, if OPG has ever gotten something wrong (and he has), this would certainly qualify as a prime example. And PS ....I only post in this thread when someone mis-states, perverts my position, or deliberately cites me out of context. I present my arguments with data and context, unlike most have been posting nothing more on here than "you're wrong", or "that is incorrect", and then disappearing back into cyberspace. -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J. I've already addressed your claims regarding the 9.0 being the only bright spot numerous times. Please do not keep stating this. The 9.4 sale is not a price drop, its a price raise from the 2010 sale. Why are we to only count the high sale of 2004, and why not address the 2009, and 2010 sales for 7.7K And its a blue not a yellow. A 2014 sale is a more current sale which better establishes its current value. So even if its a price drop from 2004, the point is moot regarding current values. I've already addressed your circular statement regarding the 8.5 sales as well. Third time posting this, I'll just cut and paste. "But how could the recent 8.5 price drag the price down if the 8.5 went up from last year when the 8.5 sold for $820 and the 9.0 sold for $2500 within a two month time period? Can we agree this statement is false where you claim: "Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I would argue that the 8.5 sale of cerebus 1 that just sold for $850 a few weeks ago drags down the current value of that 9.0 to more in the $1500 range. " Also if we add the Comiclink sale, then there was also a $1050 sale this year. Does that not count, even after the sale is no longer on the site? I have already addressed the blue label staements as well. There are fewer HG Blue labels so its not unheard of to have Blues go for more than Yellow when this happens. In this case the Blues have seemed outperformed the Yellows. The last Yellow sale was 2012 9.0 at $1434. The following year it was $2500 in Blue and in 2005 it was $1750. Now I can say these are the reasons the book has been going up. But there seems to be more than one sale that seems to suggest that the blue label may have something to do with this. Lackluster according to you? But what if the book has gone down then up in between your arbitrary timeline of 10 years, then what? At what point does it not become lackluster? I make no claims of Overstreet values and how he comes to his conclusions. False claim regarding "addressed all of your claims ad nauseum". Never made any claims of hot, But I did state you were incorrect regarding a drop in value. So indeed your claims regarding only a 9.0 sale to support claims was incorrect. I have already shown why pending is meaningless on Comiclink, and by the way, it is no longer pending. Similar grades is a moot point. Low ball offers, moot. Glad I don't need to quote myself another time (thumbs u That's fine. You can disagree here. Clearly since there are limited sales. But its wrong everytime you state that only the 9.0 sale helps. The 9.4 at 9K in addition of a recent 9.0 sales helps determine the price of a high grade copy. If I only had the recent 9.0, then I would have a harder time making claims regarding current values. A) You don't know if that sale on comic link ever closed or consummated either way. Further, (and regardless) it would not be a publicly available sale and will never be reported by GPA, even if it happened. And oh yeah, current offers on the same book in grade do kinda matter, as they are suggestive and representative of market trends and where the book is actually headed, don't-cha think? B) The 9.0 is obviously an outlier since the book never showed an annual appreciation of more than about 2.5% the ten years prior in that grade. Take out that one outlier sale and the book is a complete dud for the last decade in pretty much all grades, top down. C) I have never actually disputed Overstreet's value of 2100 in a 9.2. That is probably correct and what one would go for now. But a Hulk 181 in the same grade goes for more. So overstreet got that part wrong. D) You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I for one certainly would not suggest investing your money into a short box of cerebus 1's anytime soon. As there seems to be very few interested buyers for the inordinately large amount of copies that are already available on the market. (thumbs u -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J. I've already addressed your claims regarding the 9.0 being the only bright spot numerous times. Please do not keep stating this. The 9.4 sale is not a price drop, its a price raise from the 2010 sale. Why are we to only count the high sale of 2004, and why not address the 2009, and 2010 sales for 7.7K And its a blue not a yellow. A 2014 sale is a more current sale which better establishes its current value. So even if its a price drop from 2004, the point is moot regarding current values. I've already addressed your circular statement regarding the 8.5 sales as well. Third time posting this, I'll just cut and paste. "But how could the recent 8.5 price drag the price down if the 8.5 went up from last year when the 8.5 sold for $820 and the 9.0 sold for $2500 within a two month time period? Can we agree this statement is false where you claim: "Going to have to respectfully disagree with you on that. I would argue that the 8.5 sale of cerebus 1 that just sold for $850 a few weeks ago drags down the current value of that 9.0 to more in the $1500 range. " Also if we add the Comiclink sale, then there was also a $1050 sale this year. Does that not count, even after the sale is no longer on the site? I have already addressed the blue label staements as well. There are fewer HG Blue labels so its not unheard of to have Blues go for more than Yellow when this happens. In this case the Blues have seemed outperformed the Yellows. The last Yellow sale was 2012 9.0 at $1434. The following year it was $2500 in Blue and in 2005 it was $1750. Now I can say these are the reasons the book has been going up. But there seems to be more than one sale that seems to suggest that the blue label may have something to do with this. Lackluster according to you? But what if the book has gone down then up in between your arbitrary timeline of 10 years, then what? At what point does it not become lackluster? I make no claims of Overstreet values and how he comes to his conclusions. I have responded to these statements ad nauseum. You consider a $33 increase in price over a year's period in an 8.5 to be something other than "flat", "stagnant", "menial", or "meaningless"? Good for you, you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree. You believe that a book that sold for $10.6K in 2004 in its highest grade (9.4) and then $9k in 2014, with some zig zags in between that still left the book with a net loss of about 15% over a 10 year period is a book that's hot, in demand, and on the move? Good for you, you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree. You want to use an unverified "pending sale" on Comic Link as a "comp", and pretend the other 5 books or so in similar grades haven't been languishing on there for months with nothing but low ball offers that are in line with last year's prices or below? Good for you, you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree. You want to believe that a blue label book is more valuable than a file copy/ SS signed by the creator of the book? Good for you, you're entitled to your opinion. But I disagree. Basically, you can go right on ahead believing whatever you need to believe, and studying that lone sale of 9.0 so you can feel good about a book that the market at large forgot about a long time ago. Because without that random, outlier 9.0 sale there would be nothing but a piddling little price difference of only a couple hundred dollars in even that grade from 2005-2012. Which, again, is why I say that 9.0 is the one and only sale that even remotely helps you. But not really. -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J. Actually that part is true I made the error first then caught it. Despite that it would most certainly effect the performance and analysis. Define lackluster performance? It wouldn't, because as I said the outlier sale of the blue label 9.0 cerebus 1 is the only bright spot that you have been hanging your hat on the entire time. The 8.0 and 8.5 sales this year kill you, the book does not triple in value from an 8.5-9.0, there has been no 9.2 sale recorded in years, and in its highest grade (9.4), there has been price deflation. This is not a book where there is any evidence that a blue label would command a premium over an SS file copy. That is merely speculation on your part. SS copies routinely sell for more than blue (right or wrong), take for example the Hulk 181 9.2 SS copy going for $3700 in march. Lackluster performance means a book that has seen either stagnant and/or declining sales figures over a ten year period from its top grade down, with waning collector interest, in a book that was already niche to begin with. Granted you may still have some old school collectors who want one of the handful of copies of it available in its top one or two grades, but the book obviously has its best days behind it, and barring some mainstream media push caused by a cartoon or something, that is unlikely change. And while I don't necessarily disagree with Overstreet's value of it placed at $2100, I do vehemently disagree with the value placed on an IH 181 of $2,000, because the book cannot be had for that price in a 9.2. Overstreet got it wrong, hence the original point of this thread. -J.

It was your post quoted above, bother. Although, ironically, it does not actually affect the analysis or conclusions in the least about the book's lackluster performance over the last ten years. *sorry* -J.

You may be right. (thumbs u -J.

I would say about 3500-3800. -J.

But the 9.4 Blue sale in 2014 shows otherwise. I'm looking at ALL sales. But like minds are free to disagree. (thumbs u -J.

I'm saying that when you look at ALL the sales over the 10 year period we have data there is a clear drop in prices in its highest grades, and stagnant to lower in its lower grades. The one and only grade that hasn't fizzled is that one sale for the 9.0 but subsequent under $900 sales for an 8.5 certainly does not do that $2500 price any favors now. -J.

Why is it valid to use 8.5 sales data to extrapolate a 9.2 value, when it's not equally valid to use the 9.4 sale to extrapolate a 9.2? We have a 9.4 Cerebus sale from this year that sold for more than double what 9.6 Hulk 181s have sold for, at least per GPA. Further, at least 3 posters on this board (two of them dealers) in this very thread have said they would trade a 9.2 Hulk for a 9.2 Cerebus straight up. (Here's a hint - it's not that they are Cerebus super fans; it's that the book is simply worth more.) 8.5 =/= 9.2 for 90% of the books out there. Okay let me put it another way for you: In 2004 a cerebus 1, 9.4 sold for about $10,600. In 2010, six years later, with that record breaking sale of a 9.4 on the record, a 9.2 could only muster $1725 on a sale. Two years later in 2012 another 9.2 sold for $1434. That is a DECLINE in value over a two year period of about 17%. In 2014 another 9.4 sold for $9000. That's also a DECLINE in value, this time of about 15%. In that time you have one lone sale that appears to help your case...The 9.0 that sold for $2500 last year. With all of the other sales in surrounding grades and time frames, however, that cannot be considered anything other than an outlier. Because this year, there seems to be a more return to form as other similarly high grade copies are going for only $800-900 with just one sale that's been "pending" on comic link for nearly two months at $1050. But as far as the top two grades of the book is concerned there has been a very real price deflation observed over the last ten years. That is, there is simply nothing out there to suggest that anything has changed and that a 9.2 would suddenly more than double in value right now to have a higher FMV than the Hulk 181 in like grade. -J. So then why can't the 10K price be an outliner? Wasn;t that the first 9.4 signed copy to sell? If we tossed that price out, what do we have? Well we have a book going up in value in 9.4. But even if we kept that, the price goes back up when we consider the recent 9.4 sale compared to the previous 9.4 sales in 2009 and 2010. I suspect the Blue label is part of that reason. I also suspect that's why the book took suck a large jump from the 2010 and 2012 yellow prices of 9.0. Of roughly (2x) $1500 Yellow to $2500 Blue. Also the 9.2 was $2,136 in 2005 unless you have another sale that I missed. Part of the problem is signed copies are more common than the blue labels in 9.0-9.4. Its not an easy book to figure out, I will say that. But your reasoning I believe are incorrect. You're certainly free to disagree with my conclusions (though I don't see how you do), it still doesn't change the numbers. And I didn't use the 2005 sale of the 9.2 for $ 2136 because we had more recent data available since then. BUT, if you insist, that would actually equate to a 33% DECLINE in value over the same 10 year period, give or take that the 9.4 has also declined in value. And again, your best case scenario, even if you average out the more recent sales in 9.4 would be a book that has been flat for years. Not a book that's lighting up sales records, and certainly nothing to suggest a 9.2 will have more than DOUBLED from its very recent lows to somehow have a higher FMV than a Hulk 181 9.2. Not by any stretch of logic or any myopic reading of the publicly available sales data can such a conclusion reasonably be reached IMO. -J. I see part of your problem, your $1434 was for a 9.0 not a 9.2. ( 9.0 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (1) $1,434 $1,434 Feb-2012 I would also add the 9.0 price has gone up also since the last sale from 2005 from $1750 to $2500 But here is how I would get a price 9.4 blue= 9K (2014 Price) Only sale 9.0 blue $2500K (2013) Price going up from 2005 8.5 blue $850, $1050 prices (2014) Price going up from previous year 4.5K doesn't seem unreasonable according to these prices points. Now lets look at yellow prices 9.4 Yellow= 7K (2010 Price) 9.2 Yellow $2,136 (2005 Price) 9.0 Yellow $1434 (2012 Price) So here a reasonable price for a 9.2 yellow would be $2000-$3000. Based on current sales I would guess toward the higher end of that estimate. Like I said earlier you literally have only ONE sale, the 9.0 that helps your case at all. Literally everything else says the book is basically stagnant to declining in value. -J. Its not one sale I am basing the info on, its four as shown above. That is not correct. You are parsing out sales that hurt you, calling sales "sales" that aren't, and narrowing the field of comps to give a distorted impression about what's really been going on with this book for the last ten years. It is what it is, again, don't shoot the messenger. -J. "Sale pending" is what you will find on every page on Comiclink with a sale. So yes I think its valid to count it. Please explain why I am wrong. It's a peripheral point but the sale is consummated when it no longer appears as "pending" on the site and the listing poofs. And whether you "count" it or not it still does nothing to help with the value of the lone 9.0 sale, and it does nothing to help make a case that a 9.2 has doubled in value in the last 18 months. -J. The "sales pending" means very little. I have already received money months ago from books still showing the "sales pending" at Comiclink. I'm not claiming a 9.2 Blue or yellow has doubled in value in 18 months. Is anyone? You basically are. For the book to have a higher FMV than the hulk 181, it would virtually have had to have doubled from its 2010 sale. You are very selective with your data points. Again, looking at ALL of the data points over the ten years that we have available data, the book has been, at best stagnant, and in most grades has in fact seen declines, including in it top grades, barring that one outlier sale of the 9.0, which you seem to be basing the entire value of this book on. That one single sale of that one single book in that one single grade doesn't save your book. That is absolutely no legitimate or valid way to conclude the book has a higher FMV than the hulk 181 in like grade. The books are literally going in two opposite directions. OPG is off the mark. -J.

Why is it valid to use 8.5 sales data to extrapolate a 9.2 value, when it's not equally valid to use the 9.4 sale to extrapolate a 9.2? We have a 9.4 Cerebus sale from this year that sold for more than double what 9.6 Hulk 181s have sold for, at least per GPA. Further, at least 3 posters on this board (two of them dealers) in this very thread have said they would trade a 9.2 Hulk for a 9.2 Cerebus straight up. (Here's a hint - it's not that they are Cerebus super fans; it's that the book is simply worth more.) 8.5 =/= 9.2 for 90% of the books out there. Okay let me put it another way for you: In 2004 a cerebus 1, 9.4 sold for about $10,600. In 2010, six years later, with that record breaking sale of a 9.4 on the record, a 9.2 could only muster $1725 on a sale. Two years later in 2012 another 9.2 sold for $1434. That is a DECLINE in value over a two year period of about 17%. In 2014 another 9.4 sold for $9000. That's also a DECLINE in value, this time of about 15%. In that time you have one lone sale that appears to help your case...The 9.0 that sold for $2500 last year. With all of the other sales in surrounding grades and time frames, however, that cannot be considered anything other than an outlier. Because this year, there seems to be a more return to form as other similarly high grade copies are going for only $800-900 with just one sale that's been "pending" on comic link for nearly two months at $1050. But as far as the top two grades of the book is concerned there has been a very real price deflation observed over the last ten years. That is, there is simply nothing out there to suggest that anything has changed and that a 9.2 would suddenly more than double in value right now to have a higher FMV than the Hulk 181 in like grade. -J. So then why can't the 10K price be an outliner? Wasn;t that the first 9.4 signed copy to sell? If we tossed that price out, what do we have? Well we have a book going up in value in 9.4. But even if we kept that, the price goes back up when we consider the recent 9.4 sale compared to the previous 9.4 sales in 2009 and 2010. I suspect the Blue label is part of that reason. I also suspect that's why the book took suck a large jump from the 2010 and 2012 yellow prices of 9.0. Of roughly (2x) $1500 Yellow to $2500 Blue. Also the 9.2 was $2,136 in 2005 unless you have another sale that I missed. Part of the problem is signed copies are more common than the blue labels in 9.0-9.4. Its not an easy book to figure out, I will say that. But your reasoning I believe are incorrect. You're certainly free to disagree with my conclusions (though I don't see how you do), it still doesn't change the numbers. And I didn't use the 2005 sale of the 9.2 for $ 2136 because we had more recent data available since then. BUT, if you insist, that would actually equate to a 33% DECLINE in value over the same 10 year period, give or take that the 9.4 has also declined in value. And again, your best case scenario, even if you average out the more recent sales in 9.4 would be a book that has been flat for years. Not a book that's lighting up sales records, and certainly nothing to suggest a 9.2 will have more than DOUBLED from its very recent lows to somehow have a higher FMV than a Hulk 181 9.2. Not by any stretch of logic or any myopic reading of the publicly available sales data can such a conclusion reasonably be reached IMO. -J. I see part of your problem, your $1434 was for a 9.0 not a 9.2. ( 9.0 ) Sgnt series/Signed by Dave Sim (1) $1,434 $1,434 Feb-2012 I would also add the 9.0 price has gone up also since the last sale from 2005 from $1750 to $2500 But here is how I would get a price 9.4 blue= 9K (2014 Price) Only sale 9.0 blue $2500K (2013) Price going up from 2005 8.5 blue $850, $1050 prices (2014) Price going up from previous year 4.5K doesn't seem unreasonable according to these prices points. Now lets look at yellow prices 9.4 Yellow= 7K (2010 Price) 9.2 Yellow $2,136 (2005 Price) 9.0 Yellow $1434 (2012 Price) So here a reasonable price for a 9.2 yellow would be $2000-$3000. Based on current sales I would guess toward the higher end of that estimate. Like I said earlier you literally have only ONE sale, the 9.0 that helps your case at all. Literally everything else says the book is basically stagnant to declining in value. -J. Its not one sale I am basing the info on, its four as shown above. That is not correct. You are parsing out sales that hurt you, calling sales "sales" that aren't, and narrowing the field of comps to give a distorted impression about what's really been going on with this book for the last ten years. It is what it is, again, don't shoot the messenger. -J. "Sale pending" is what you will find on every page on Comiclink with a sale. So yes I think its valid to count it. Please explain why I am wrong. It's a peripheral point but the sale is consummated when it no longer appears as "pending" on the site and the listing poofs. And whether you "count" it or not it still does nothing to help with the value of the lone 9.0 sale, and it does nothing to help make a case that a 9.2 has doubled in value in the last 18 months. -J.