Jaydogrules

There's no way you'd be "glad to listen". You didn't listen to what anyone said in the Cerebus thread and you haven't listened to what people here have said. As I posted earlier, if it's not on the census or reported on GPA it doesn't exist in your world. Nobody ever said there are hundreds available. There's not. Just because it's not for sale, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You're the one that capped the number of existing copies at 100. In a matter of a few hours, we accounted for nearly 50% of that. The collecting world is far bigger than these boards and GPA. ...except, as with the cerebus thread, nobody is backing up any of what they're saying with actual data. Simply saying "nu-uh you're wrong because we just know better than you" is condescending BS. If you're so right, back it up with some hard facts and data. Or at least back up your "opinions" with something that might support them (as I have done). Simply saying "there's more than you say there are because I just know it, I just know it, and such and such I bet has a copy and look that guy over there, he has one, so you're wrong, so there." That isn't debate. Those are, once again, nothing but conclusory statements that are made with no supporting facts, and at best an anecdote or two. When I say, hey guys I would be surprised if there were more than 100 copies because there's this many here and this many there and only X amount have been brought to auction over this many years, and Y amount have been raw versus slabbed, I am at least "trying" to back up what I have already called my "opinion". Your "opinions" are yours to have as well, but if you're going to try to "school" me at least bring some facts of your own to the table to back them up. Your "experience" and years in the hobby are no more significant or impressive than my own, so you don't necessarily automatically get points for that, and I don't give a hoot how many posts or years you have been on these boards. That doesn't necessarily make you an "expert" either. Bring me facts and data. That's the line I'm in and that's the language I speak. -J.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology." Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages. How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run? 3. Two slabbed, and one raw. That's it. How many regular Sandman #8s has Heritage auctioned off in the last 15 years? 4. Three slabbed, and one raw. That's it. Looks like this book is almost as rare as the editorial variant Except.....that is but ONE of five samples I have used. The variant is nearly non -existent on ALL FIVE. For some reason you think it proves something (what, exactly I do not know) to look at but one, and not even for the actual book that we are discussing. I'm sure if I contact the other two or three major auction houses I will encounter similar numbers (ie, only two-three sold in 10-20 years). Maybe I will call them tomorrow. But hey, why look at what's actually been brought to market when it is so much more scientific to sit and and speculate on "how many other copies, maybe just might be out there" I'm saying around 100. We know of a couple boardies who have a few copies? Great there's three more we know of. And of course we have the (also very "scientific") anecdotal accounts of sightings of one or two copies at a con here and there. If someone can explain to me how such sparse sightings and how few copies brought to market at various auctions over the last 20 years, and only 30 or so graded and verified copies on the census somehow equates to "hundreds available" I'd be glad to listen. In the meantime, feel free to find even one available copy on the open market right now and send me the link. I'll wait.... -J.

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...? 2. That's it. I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence. You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow. I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity Do you mean "sample"? "Sample size" is how BIG the samples are. That's nice that you gave these examples, but they are insufficient. I've already explained why GPA, the census, and eBay are insufficient, and the same basic arguments apply to Heritage, with one more: Heritage is NOT known for being heavily involved in Copper Age books. Their forte, of course, is Silver and Gold. No, because they only represent a tiny portion of the big picture. You cannot point to what is NOT, and use that to make a claim as to what IS. Reality doesn't work that way. "See? SEE?? There haven't been hardly ANY sales! That MUST mean these copies don't exist anymore!" ...while completely ignoring the much broader realities of the comic collecting world, which have already been explained. One more time: knowing what people with decades of experience in this hobby...like myself...know, it is not within the realm of reason to conclude that just because a certain book doesn't appear frequently on the marketplace, that therefore the vast majority of the copies of that book no longer exist. Are you ever going to take responsibility for the "The market wasn't even aware that this book existed until 2005-2006" error? You are attempting to say that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because you can only see a part of her brown dress. When I said that I was referring to the beginning of the sharp increase in value at that time. And yes, I am stating that a large part of that will correlate to a sharp increase in market awareness. By the way, I called comic link and asked them how many copies have graced their auction house since they've been in business. A total of..... 2. Just 2 in the last eighteen years. The 9.6 they just sold and an 8.0 four years ago. That's it. So a total of 5 copies between two of the largest and most respected auction houses in the hobby over a nearly two decade period. Again, I don't discount that there are plenty of raw copies hiding in collections and maybe some people aren't even aware of what they have. But I do not believe that number is in excess of 100 copies, based on the Now 5 samples that I have checked and are available to us. And yes, #33 is a pretty bad arse stand alone. -J.

How many Turtles 3 variants has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years...? 2. That's it. I must therefore conclude that there are no more than 73 copies of that book still in existence. You're looking at a patch of dress, and concluding that the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow. I gave you one sampling size to prove my point. Actually, I've given you four sampling sizes... CGC census, Heritage auction records, GPA sales data, and recent ebay activity. None of these are good enough for you, or provide even the least bit evidence to you that there may really only be as few as 100 copies of this book around? You must believe that your speculation of what "simply has to be out there, unseen" is right, and my hard data is somehow lacking, and is inferior to your speculation? Makes no sense to me, but like I have repeatedly stated, we are all entitled to our opinions. -J.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology." Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages. How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run? 3. Two slabbed, and one raw. That's it. There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours. I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be out there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market. -J.

So then it sounds like we agree after all, at least on this point. -J.

This is a reasonable conclusion, and...this is for you, Jay...based on what we know about survival rates for comics in general, Sandman in particular, and the collecting habits of buyers from 1989 to the present. This is not made-up "speculation" that relies on nothing but personal whim and opinion. You, Jay, discount and discredit people who have been doing this for decades, who know these markets because they deal in them on a daily basis, and have for decades, and that, along with your made up "facts" (like "the market wasn't aware of this book until 2005-2006"), is what makes your statements so unreasonable. The census is great...if one knows how to use the census correctly. But one cannot...indeed, must not...go by the census alone in determining what exists, and in what quantities, and in what conditions. Yes, it IS all just "opinion" about extant copies, but you err when you say all opinions are created equally. If I am suffering a persistent, hacking, mucousy cough...and my doctor, who has been a doctor for 40 years, says I have pneumonia...and my mechanic says I have a lung sunburn...whose opinion is more valid? And...if you want to have your opinions given any weight, you better make sure ALL your facts are spit-shine accurate. What value is an opinion that relies on things which are not true? I understand your point but at the end of the day, comic books ain't rocket science. Or perhaps more appropriate to your analogy...they ain't brain surgery. I deal with data and statistics all day. I respect dealers opinions and the opinions of other boardies. But I have my own opinions. The opinions of those who have disagreed with me have largely consisted of what collectors and people "might have done" or "might be doing" with this particular book. This is nothing but speculation. My opinion is based on what can actually be observed in the market place, and the statistical sample therein. I am NOT basing my opinion on essentially unseen shadow inventory that cannot be proven either way that it even exists. You are suggesting that "it must exist, how can it not?". My response to that is: "Because the statistical sample size that we have seen suggests that it does not". -J.

In my unsolicited opinion, your hyperbolic, pendulum-swing representation of other's statements is a significant reason why these debates persist. You suggested there were only 30 or so known copies, others disagreed, and you insinuated that the only alternative is 100% survival. That's a false dichotomy - there are more options available than 30 or 100%. I wouldn't claim a 100% survival of any comic more than 10 years old. The editorial variant was well-known back in the 90s; I remember looking for it before I got out of comics in 1996. I can probably find and post some old Wizards or Overstreets to show it listed at a premium price vs standard copies. Many comic collectors don't slab their comics at all. Many Sandman collectors put their runs away when the series ended so long ago and may have even quit actively collecting comics. They likely imagine the 8B they got to be a $50-$100 book that they'd rather keep and have no idea it could go for $2k. As time passes, it's possible that editorial variants are finding their way back into the wild from people who never realized they had a premium copy, just that they liked reading it and started following the series. Admittedly, speculation, but based on some observation of comic readers who were only in it for Alan Moore Swamp Thing, Neil Gaiman Sandman, and Jamie Delano Hellblazer. I doubt many of these copies were simply thrown away, since they were given out at comic stores presumably to comic collectors/buyers, not at Barnes & Noble to the general public. I'd say probably two-thirds are out there somewhere in some condition range. I respect your opinion, though I still believe that, in this day and age it is very easy for someone to find out what their books are worth, and as with virtually every other book of value, the more valuable it becomes, the more come out from the wild. We simply have not seen that happen with the sandman 8 variant. Period. You say collectors have known for awhile that they are coveted and that collectors were the likely recipients of them originally, and I agree. So where are they all? We basically see the same copies coming up for sale over and over again. And very few raw ones. Their perennial dearth in the market place tells us that either people are really holding onto a rather large percentage of this particular (tiny print run) comic, and are not slabbing them. Or it tells us there are very few surviving copies that can even be circulated. My position is the latter. You disagree. You're entitled to. As I said however, the facts we have publicly before us tend to support my position more than yours. But that is just my opinion. (thumbs u -J.

You cannot claim there are no copies "on the market" unless you have checked every dealer website, comic and/or business website (ie. CPG, Amazon, Comiclink, etc.) that allows people to put items up for sale, brick and mortar store, convention (yes, it's currently Thursday afternoon - you probably get a pass on this one at the moment), etc. eBay is not the market, GPA does not represent all sales (even just of CGC graded books), and the CGC census is not an accurate representation of extant copies, either directly or proportionately. Your "opinions" are ridiculous and not based on any kind of reality. And thank you for your opinion of my opinion. My opinion of yours is that you are wrong. Now where does that leave us? And please, by all means, link me to an available copy that's publicly available right now... No? So what's your point? By the way, I didn't say any of what you are attempting to paraphrase me as saying. I think it's groovy that you believe there is 100% survival rate of the paltry 600 copies of the book that were printed ("printed", not distributed), I just happen to believe literally all available evidence suggests much to the contrary. I guesstimate around 100. No one has provided any competing evidence to the contrary other than to offer up speculation that actually defies the hard available numbers that we have readily before us. You believe there is a stockpile of a "shadow inventory" of these out there somewhere ? Good for you, you keep right on believing that. But I believe the inventory that has come to light over the past 15 years suggests you are dead wrong. So let's agree to disagree and be friends. (thumbs u -J.

Which market...? Who are these people....? Outside of sig series, you'll find that most people don't slab books to "better preserve and protect them." As many have said before, a book is just as protected (maybe moreso) in a nice mylar and board. You're still not understanding. That a person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it is the point. That editorial is what makes the book special. Otherwise, there's nothing different between it and a regular #8. There aren't any "interior variant" AF 15s of which I am aware. The main difference between the RRP and the #8 variant is that you can still see the variation of an RRP when it is slabbed. Where are you getting this information...? The book has been known since very shortly after it first appeared. It is broken out in the 1990 OPG Updates, and is priced at $60 (regular $6) in the 1991 Big Guide. I would suggest that appearing in the OPG pretty much means that the "market at large" is fairly aware of it. Or....it could be because it is the second of the two keys to the run, featuring the first appearance of the most popular character (by far) of the Endless, after Morpheus.... Speculation without understanding the situation is fruitless. Yes. I already explained to you why this was true. If you refuse to accept that answer, that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less true. Are you aware that the Mile High Action #1 is potentially worth $5,000,000 or more? It's not slabbed. Why is that...? Be warned, Jay: this isn't Bronze Comics, where people will just let you get away with making unreasonable, unfounded, factually inaccurate statements, where you can just make stuff up out of thin air, and where you will have 2-3 other people "supporting" you. This is Comics General. You may have bitten off more than you can chew.... "The Market". If you don't know what I mean by that, I don't know what to tell you. It should be obvious. For example....where would you look to find one for sale right now? Can't find any? That means there are none currently on "The Market". You have an interesting way of stating your opinions as facts. I have stated from the beginning that I am guesstimating the amount of surviving copies. All you have done is try to convince me that my opinion is wrong and that your opinion is right. They are still both "opinions" either way. I, however am basing my opinion on current census figures, scarcity on "The Market", its original miniscule print run and how it was distributed. You are basing your opinion on really nothing more than speculation on what people "may or may not" be doing with however many raw copies might be out there. You have not disputed that they rarely come to market, raw or slabbed, and other than saying "No", you have not explained how or why that does not suggest that there would be significantly more than my guesstimate of 100 surviving copies. I am more than happy to listen to and debate anyone's opinions on these boards. Just as long as they realize and understand that that is all we are doing. (thumbs u -J.

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to. It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows. I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees. But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants. -J. Ehm ... that's exactly what you said: ...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u -J. The Mile High Action #1 isn't on the census. I suppose that copy is therefore "unknown"...? A copy of an important book can certainly be "known" to the hobby without being on the census. I do not presume to compare the Sandman 8 editorial variant with a Action comics #1, and you shouldn't either. -J.

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to. It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows. I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees. But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants. -J. Ehm ... that's exactly what you said: ...."Known" copies being those on the census. I speculated on the potential amount of "raw" copies in a later post when RMA asked for the same clarification. Which is ultimately all anyone can do. I base my guesstimate, however, on the info cited heretofore. (thumbs u -J.

There's no agreeing to disagreeing here - it's nuts to claim there are only 30 known copies of this book. Apart from my slabbed copies, I have 5 or 6 raw copies I have no intention of slabbing - at Baltimore I saw 2 raw copies hanging on dealer walls, and it's pretty rare that I don't see at least 1 copy at each show I go to. It's a rare book and one of my personal favorites, but there are a lot more copies out there than the CGC census shows. I never said that. I said I'd be surprised if there were more than 100 copies out there total, based on how they were originally circulated and their (lack of) availability on the market. And I stand by that. Seeing one or even two raw copies at a show here and there (amongst hundreds of dealers) doesn't surprise me. Dealers will take their best/coolest/rarest/most expensive stuff to a con, if for no other reason than to be eye candy. I see the same rare GA stuff at almost every con I go to, that doesn't mean I think they're suddenly falling out of the trees. But it is nice to know who the one person is that has been hoarding the #8 editorial variants. -J.

I sold a copy in 2009 for $75.00 in 8.0. For your information it's not on GPA or the census. There are 2, 8.0's on the census, one of them was yours. (thumbs u -J.

Again, I am not only looking at the census. I am also looking at overall availability on the market. On any given day there are 5-6 copies of Tick #1 on the market, both slabbed and raw. There are additional 5-10 viewable closed listings as well. The book is handy to whomever wants to buy one, whenever. The better example really is the Batman 608 RRP. It had a print run only of about 500, but on any given day you can find a couple available for sale, and a raw copy will also still pop up every now and then. It is also 13 years newer than the Sandman 8 editorial, and even it has 281 copies slabbed on the census, over half its print run. Why? Because it is a potential four figure, highly sought after book. Not everyone is a dealer, and slabs a book because they are going to sell it. Many people slab books to better preserve and protect them. I personally will slab any book that attains a value of $150 or more. I still do not accept that a people are not slabbing all their Sandman 8's, because it will prevent them from reading the editorial. A person can't read any part of their comic book when they slab it no matter what, the editorial doesn't vaporize or cease to exist once the book is slabbed. The book is still what it is. Do people not slab AF 15's because then they can't re-read the first appearance of Spiderman? Of course not. The main difference between the RRP and the #8 is that the RRP was given to dealers and was always destined to end up on the secondary market. The #8 was handed out directly to customers at just two local LCS' in California (and not even all of them were circulated). The market at large did not in fact know about this particular variant for years or start placing a huge premium on it until around 2006-2007. In 2005 a 9.6 copy could still be had for around $40. Since then the value has exploded, as people have learned of its existence. Sandman fans, completionists, variant hunters, etc. want the book, and with movie talk it only made the book more demanded. Even the normal issue of Sandman 8 has become nearly as valuable as Sandman 1, my theory being that there's a halo effect from the variant affecting the price of it. Like I said, all anyone can do is speculate how many were actually circulated (it was not the full 600 run), how many were destroyed, how many were neglected and lost to time, etc. We do have two big clues though... the market, and the census. And the book is almost non-existent on one, and extraordinarily scarce on the other. Saying that maybe only 100 have survived is tripling the amount of copies that we see on the census now. I don't know about you, but I do not see 2 raw copies come up for sale, for every slabbed copy. And these do sell raw from time to time. The last raw copy sold for $1,000. Very few modern-ish books sell for that kind of money raw. How many more Sandman 1's have we seen hit the census since the book went from being $100, to $300-$400? I slabbed my OO copy last year. Didn't sell it. Never will. How many Sandman 4's do you think we will see hitting the census soon? There are plenty of raw copies available out there right now. Nobody had a reason to slab the book....until now maybe. Do you seriously think that people "aren't" slabbing their $1000+ raw grail Sandman 8 editorial variants? A book that was potentially worth $200+ seven years ago? $500+ five years ago? $1000+ two years ago? $2000+ now? Just so they can screw around with it, handle it, and reminisce about what Karen Berger had to say on the inside front cover? I don't think so. But as always, we will just have to agree to disagree on this my friend. (thumbs u -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. Those that aren't known to the market probably just haven't been brought to the market. Unless somebody made a huge effort to acquire and hoard them and then just happened to get caught in a hurricane or a fire, I'd guess that instead of 34 known copies there have are less than 34 copies from the original run that were destroyed and that only a small percentage have been damaged to less than newsstand condition. I'm not sure about that. There were only about 600 printed and many were given away at just two comic book shops in LA and San Fran. The story is that not even all of the original 600 were handed out, that some of the remaining were kept and sold on the secondary market and the rest destroyed. I think a close comparison would be the batman 608rrp. There were around 500 of those given out to dealers in 2002. Once they became highly collectible, copies started hitting cgc in force. Now there are about 280 on the census. Sandman 8 editorial came out in 1989, and it has been considered the holy grail of the series for the better part of a decade. And even now, 25 years later, barely 30 copies are on the census. Based on those percentages, I'd be surprised if even 100 total copies have survived. That's one rare book. -J. You're confusing the census with what is "known." The census does not represent the final word on what is known to exist, and what is not. There are reasons why the book isn't represented by bigger numbers on the census; for example, the editorial is what makes it special, and once the book is slabbed, it has to be unslabbed to look at it, which prevents people from slabbing them in the first place. Also...females make up a larger percentage of Sandman collectors than standard superhero books, and female comic fans both hold onto their collectibles much tighter than men (they are collectors in the truest sense, and how much money they might make selling it doesn't generally factor into it), and tend not to be as much into slabbing. This is a 1989 book, not a 1949 book...people who bought Sandman (and most comics in 1989) are and were very, very unlikely to dispose of them in the trash. Sandman #8 variant has been a "grail" (oh, how I hate this word) since it became generally known in early 1990, not just the last decade. By the time it came out, Sandman had gained considerable word of mouth buzz, and was fast becoming a "hot book." These books, even when they cool down, have much less chance of being tossed than books that were never hot to begin with (like, say, New Gods.) Where do you get the information that the remaining copies were destroyed....? There are many more than 30, or 100, copies of this book still in existence. Slabbed or raw, a copy only comes to market a few times a year. And they are usually the same copies. One 9.8, new to market sold recently for $2k (full ask) the moment it listed. Fact of the matter Is we can only speculate how many have survived, my estimates are based on what I see on the census and what I have observed on the open market and recorded sales by GPA. I do not believe people "aren't slabbing" them because, if they do, they can not read the editorial. You can't read any part of a comic once it's slabbed regardless. Fact of the matter is, with what these things sell for, with how valuable they are, even in under 9.0 grades, if they were out there in abundance, there would be more on the census and more regularly on the market. Pricey/hot comics tend to get slabbed, especially after movie/TV show announcements. The census does not need to have "every issue printed" on it for us to derive an indication as to what is out there. Only 30 copies of a potentially four figure, 25 year old book on the census? I'd actually be surprised if there were even another 60-70 copies floating around out there raw. And I'd be even more surprised if any significant percentage of them were 9.6/9.8 candidates. But again, it's just an educated guesstimate from what is present on the census, the GPA, and the open market. -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. Those that aren't known to the market probably just haven't been brought to the market. Unless somebody made a huge effort to acquire and hoard them and then just happened to get caught in a hurricane or a fire, I'd guess that instead of 34 known copies there have are less than 34 copies from the original run that were destroyed and that only a small percentage have been damaged to less than newsstand condition. I'm not sure about that. There were only about 600 printed and many were given away at just two comic book shops in LA and San Fran. The story is that not even all of the original 600 were handed out, that some of the remaining were kept and sold on the secondary market and the rest destroyed. I think a close comparison would be the batman 608rrp. There were around 500 of those given out to dealers in 2002. Once they became highly collectible, copies started hitting cgc in force. Now there are about 280 on the census. Sandman 8 editorial came out in 1989, and it has been considered the holy grail of the series for the better part of a decade. And even now, 25 years later, barely 30 copies are on the census. Based on those percentages, I'd be surprised if even 100 total copies have survived. That's one rare book. -J.

Thanks. The signature is a sample of cool books I have like others. Showcase22, your sig line inspires me to spend more money on better comic books. -J. Yeah cause your sig line is so drab... -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J.

The movie announcement has done next to nothing for the value of this book, which is unfortunate. It really is under valued (with the exception of course being the #8 editorial variant which only has about 30 known surviving copies, and always costs an arm and a leg the one or two times a year one comes available). Maybe this announcement will move the needle a little more on this classic series. -J.

Thanks. The signature is a sample of cool books I have like others. Showcase22, your sig line inspires me to spend more money on better comic books. -J.

Welcome to the big leagues my friend. -J.

Figured I would re-post this here. It has all the info you need regarding the NDS/MJ inserts and sheds more light on why they often times (usually the keys) command a premium. http://www.awe4one.com/NDS-MJ%20Inserts/Insert%20webpage.html -J.

It's been previously discussed on the Boards that CGC considers more than just the color of the paper when assigning the PQ. Suppleness, texture, etc. That's the storyline anyway. Even though "slightly brittle" and "brittle" are the only two "PQ" designations that actually do refer to "page quality" and not literally "page colour". (Which probably has something to do with the seeming randomness and inconsistency of it.) I'm just not so sure there even is a way to be consistent with something like that from one grader to the next, one day to the next, one book to the next. Short of "slightly brittle/brittle", I frankly take it with a grain of salt. -J.