Jaydogrules

Link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=77&item=111473610182&rt=nc&print=all&si=kqv78Dyg7sTGbH4Sho9EZbd4jno%3D This is the same seller that originally listed it for $3k, a few months back. I haven't seen more than one 9.8 offered every 10-12 months. Collectors are holding on to them with a death grip. That pitch black front cover makes it tough in a 9.8. Looks like the Deadpool mania got him full price plus another $200 out of it. Snikt, did yours come back a 9.8 SS? -J.

No one can predict the future obviously, but I don't think I'm going very far out on a limb here buy saying that will absolutely NOT happen, and it won't even come remotely close to happening. -J.

The book no doubt is still very under valued. I don't think a 7.5 would seek for quickly at $8k, but who knows, in a year, that may be the norm. (thumbs u -J.

There's been some movement since then. I would probably put it closer to $5500 (based on what I have heard from dealers as well). (thumbs u -J.

??What?? Where are you getting that range from? -J.

This +1 Wouldn't even think twice about it. Nope, not me. I have both the regular and UPC version (both in 9.8) and it never even crossed my mind to sell them even if it hits $1K. NM 98 is one of my favorite book. Just can't imagine my collection without it. ***Note to self...need to post a picture of them together. My kind of man! I'm just bummed as I wanted to get a UPC version before this happened. Maybe I can work out a trade with some $ for my direct market copy. Why would you ever see fit to do that ? -J.

Did this 6.0 go for $2500? That is the last sale in GPA When that one on Comiclink sold (not reported to GPA), somebody immediately went and pulled the trigger on the one that was on ebay, and that is the one that is being reported to GPA (unfortunately). -J.

It went for more than $15k. -J.

Sweet book welcome to the club. Looks like a big boy toy to me ! -J.

Quite the keen observation, mate. (thumbs u I'm just trying to figure out what Star Chamber decided that one is more valid than the other at this point. -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed. It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time. You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u -J. No it doesn't. He was on point the whole time, apart from his one "opinion". He gave you reasons, based on his experience as a dealer. Which you dismissed just like in the other thread. He told you that he owns 2 himself. 2% of your theorized existing copies. What are we up to now? Over 50% of all the existing copies tracked down in just about 24 hours. Keep going. A dealer telling me he has sold two raw copies in all his years in the business is supposed to prove that the book is plentiful and falling out of the trees ? I don't get the point. He's a dealer I expect for him to have handled a lot of rare books (even rarer and far older than this one) at some point. And how do you know the raw copies he sold aren't one of the 30 slabs now? You don't. And neither do I. And yet you assume for some reason that you are right and I am wrong. Lots of haughty people around here. -J. I told you in the post they weren't slabbed. I know where they are. And I have a pretty good idea where 2 other copies are. And the 2 copies in my collection. That's 6 raws. Michael Schmidt says he has 5 or 6 copies. I own 2 boxes of slabs in my collection. I own about 75 boxes of raws in my collection. Most people I know own way more raws than slabs. In fact the people who collect slabs only are a tiny percentage of collectors. Okay Dale I take you at your word what you say. It still doesn't change the dynamic of the discussion. Like I said, would it have made people feel better if I said 200 instead of 100? There are some "clubs" on these boards where boardies do in fact own a large, confirmed percentage of the slabs of the book on the census. It wouldn't surprise me that there are a lot of hard core, die hard collectors and sandman enthusiasts posting on here who have a copy or two. That still doesn't change the fact that, as compared to numerous other signature and low print run books from a similar era, the 8B is grossly, grossly under represented. As far as copies that come to market the book is grossly, grossly under represented. All any of us are doing is speculating why. I have my method (that is consistent with what I do for a living) and other people have theirs. I, however am attempting to base mine on verifiable data, not just piecemeal information or how many people I can count on one hand that may or may not still own a raw copy somewhere in their basement. -J.

Hi high voltage, To answer your question, I primarily shop online, secondarily at conventions. Some of the rarest and most expensive books I've acquired however have been directly from dealers that I originally met on these boards who took a request and tracked a copy down for me. (thumbs u And yes a am basing my extrapolations on GPA, CGC census, as well as the amount of raw/slabbed copies brought to market on average over the past few years. -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed. It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time. You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u -J. No it doesn't. He was on point the whole time, apart from his one "opinion". He gave you reasons, based on his experience as a dealer. Which you dismissed just like in the other thread. He told you that he owns 2 himself. 2% of your theorized existing copies. What are we up to now? Over 50% of all the existing copies tracked down in just about 24 hours. Keep going. A dealer telling me he has sold two raw copies in all his years in the business is supposed to prove that the book is plentiful and falling out of the trees ? I don't get the point. He's a dealer I expect for him to have handled a lot of rare books (even rarer and far older than this one) at some point. And how do you know the raw copies he sold aren't one of the 30 slabs now? You don't. And neither do I. And yet you assume for some reason that you are right and I am wrong. Lots of haughty people around here. -J.

I didn't say they were "destroyed". However as many have pointed out the comic was popular in its day, then not so much as a back issue, and then was re discovered again later. A lot can happen in that time to a book. I personally mis-placed, lost, or had stolen nearly half my OO Sandman collection. Where did they go? I thought I had them in that one short box but they're not there anymore ? What happened ? I can't explain why there are scarce numbers of the book or on the census or out there on the open market. I can only speculate. And I simply choose to follow the publicly available data points to the logical conclusion that their survival rate is minimal. For whatever reason. I'm not sure why that riles people up. I have acknowledged other peoples' points as being valid feasible and possible. Taken together I do believe it explains "some" of the book's scarcity. Why no one else seems to want to acknowledge the possibility (probability) that the book is under represented simply because their survival rate is just plain less than what they wish to believe is truly a mystery to me. -J.

Interesting. Where did you get this information? Just took a quick look at the census. -J. There are 34 copies on the census. What makes you think the census represents all surviving copies? ...."known" copies. There were what only 600 originally made and handed out in just two locations in California ? That particular issue has been sought after for some time. It's a safe bet the majority of them are known to the market at this point. (thumbs u -J. You make a lot of assumptions about stuff you don't know about. I have 2 copies of the book in my collection, not slabbed. And I have sold at least 2 others that I know are not slabbed. It's highly likely that most of the books are still out there in collections. I would guess there are at least 500 copies still in collections. Really almost no reason for any book from that time period not to have survived to this point. Sandman sold well from the time it came out and was a well loved titles at the time. You make a lot of assumptions about what I do and do not know. Why don't you try staying on point for once and saving the condescending attempts at personal attacks to yourself. It makes you look unprofessional. (thumbs u -J.

Groundless speculation is fun, right ? I'm sticking with about 100. Just not enough on the census, not enough reported sales, and not enough seen on the market raw, slabbed or otherwise to speculate differently. There are also too many examples of other books with similar print runs and fan bases to compare it to with much higher census numbers and market availability that belie many of your theories. As I said, one can either "assume" people just aren't slabbing or selling them in large numbers (based on what, exactly?), or we can extrapolate from existing market data to reach a proximate conclusion. In this case, that you are grossly over estimating the survival rate of the book. What's that old saying again about the most obvious answer usually being the right one ? -J.

Think about this statement. Then think about the type of collector "who slab their books so they can have an "official" grade". Now, how many of those collectors are collecting a defunct title, with relatively few books worth slabbing? The market for the RRP is substantially different than that of the S8B. A single RRP was distributed to individual retailers, who were far more likely to slab to maximize profit on the one book received. The S8B was distributed to collectors. The RRP was distributed 12 years ago, when CGC was in full swing with its marketing efforts rather than 24. The RRP was "worth" slabbing almost immediately upon release, when the majority of copies would be 9.4 or better, instead of 15-20 years later, when the majority of S8B copies would be 9.4 or worse. There are also far more S8Bs sitting in collections gathering dust, compared to RRPs. Your points are well taken actually. These are plausible explanations for why there would be "some" difference in the percentages of slabbing for the 8B/608RRP, but I'm not so sure it tells the whole story, and I do not believe that it leads to the presumption that 400-500+ of the 8B have survived. Again, I am not merely basing my personal estimates only on slabbing, but the amount of copies (raw or slabbed) that surface for sale in a given a year, or are available at any given time. The 608RRP will typically have 2-3 copies floating around for sale at any given time. The 8B "might" have 2-3 copies "a year" come up, and one of those is likely to be a scam. For this, there are two possible explanations: 1) People have them and just aren't selling them, regardless of how expensive or valuable they become. This is a very realistic possibility. However there are numerous examples of limited run variants that are expensive and sought after (like the 608RRP), with a rabid and loyal fan base where we still see multiple copies coming up for sale on a regular basis. The Saga 1 RRP comes to mind. It doesn't matter what the original distribution method was, once the book hits the secondary market the playing field is leveled. And we just don't see the same percentages of the 8B hitting the market, as we do these other books. The other explanation is, 2) The 8B is just plain less plentiful as some seem to think it is, whether slabbed or raw, they just are seldom seen, be it on the census, at a con, at an auction house, on ebay, or what-have-you. Basically, both explanations require speculation, but only one of them is an extrapolation of hard data IMO. -J.

r100- Dude. Are you sure you're even posting in the right thread ? Seriously. Garlanda- I missed your original post but I went back and saw it. It's always interesting to see those old price guides. I was never a big wizard fan although I did like the articles and market reports. The furthest back Overstreet guide value I could track down is 2005, when the 8A was $22, and the 8B was $60 (basically unchanged from the wizard value 15 years earlier). While that is a percentage value difference from the 8A of nearly 300%, the actual dollar difference is obviously only $38. This is not a significant difference. Coincidentally, it is also in about 2005 when it began to sell for greater multiples than the 8A. I do agree with the substance of your post, and I also do agree that there are likely a lot of collectors who have it raw, and will not slab it. However, contrary to the generalizations that others have made there are A LOT of collectors (obviously) who slab their books so they can have an "official" grade of their book, and better protect it. The majority of most initiated collectors will know full well by now whether or not they have the regular issue or the editorial variant. I have no doubt many of them see no reason to slab, especially if they have no intention to sell. By the same token I've also seen people selling their raw copies here and there as if they were slabbed and cgc graded. I still believe the closest example to this is the batman 608rrp, with its 500 print run, limited distribution, and early eventual demand and value on the secondary market. Fully over half of the entire print run of that book has been slabbed. Not every person who slabbed it did so with the intent to sell obviously. There are copies graded of that all the way down to a 7. And that book is barely 12 years old and was sought after rather quickly. This is a rhetorical question, because any answer would be pure speculation. But if we have a book with a similar print run, and limited distribution, and comparable value and demand with over half its print run slabbed, why do we only see barely 5% of sandman 8B's print run on the census? Is it because the owners of the other 95% want to be able to needlessly handle their $500-2000 book and re-read an editorial that is readily available online whenever they want ? I say, "No". That doesn't even make sense. At least not as applied to any significant amount of people. Is it because they don't know what they have? I say "No". Any collector (sandman collectors in particular) worth his salt knows exactly what he has by now, as has been established, the variant has been well known to collectors for a long time, even if its dollar value hasn't always been massively higher than the normal version as it is now. Is it because some people just don't see the need to slab, or figure the grade won't be high enough to bother slabbing it. I say "It's very possible". I know I won't personally slab a modern below a 9.6, but that's just me. Although, interestingly enough, there is a graded example all the way down to a 7.0 of the 8B as well. Is it because not very many copies of the 8B just aren't around anymore? I say "Yes". I'm not sure why so many contributors to this thread would rather speculate about every other possible explanation under the sun for the book's scarcity to non - existence on the census and the market, no matter how far fetched or unlikely it might be, instead of actually considering the most likely and obvious explanation- that the book's survival rate, for whatever reason, is simply lower than you think. Are there only 100 copies out there ? Who knows? That's my guess. Would it have sounded more reasonable for some reason if I estimated 200 instead? 250? Are there 500+ out there ? I say absolutely not. At some point we have to actually look at and consider the numbers we do have, and there is nothing to suggest or would allow us to extrapolate that many copies surviving in the secondary market. Again, this is my "opinion" based on statistical data and the information that is readily available to us. To those of you who say, "none of that matters, stats and data don't matter, what I say matters because I just know more than you", I say "get over yourself". We're just talking about comic books here after all. (thumbs u -J.

Followed it with this: Then this: And this: And, once again, this: If that's not what you meant, you sure have a interesting way of making your point. ....and all of these statements are very obviously couched as my "opinions". The parts that you have omitted are where I clearly explained the bases of such. (thumbs u -J.

I mean no offense but, it appears that this is a part of the problem, I've noticed that your arguments often contain logical fallacies. To say this is irrelevant is wrong. Each of these dealers is well respected and both have a reputation for moving books rather than "showing" books. Both dealers have a solid appreciation of the market and would price a book according to their appreciation of the market. You may not place much value in their assessment. However, their expert opinions are relevant and saying otherwise is wrong. It is a logical fallacy, it's a form of the "moving the goalposts" or "shifting the bar" fallacy. The fact that two reputable dealers agree does add some support for the assertion that the Cerebus is worth more. You may not give it much weight it but it is relevant. Honestly these buzz words that you toss around don't really have much meaning, and further, they are not representative of anything I have actually said. It's great that you respect dealer opinions. I do as well. However I also have enough knowledge and insight to form my own opinions. And no I do not see any actual evidence beyond "dealer opinion", that a cerebus 1 9.2 has a higher FMV than a hulk 181 9.2. But if you want to dredge that non-point up again I would respectfully ask that you take it back over the to the bronze section. With regards to the sandman 8 book in question, it's nice to see some people at least allowing for the possibility that there "may" be as few as 100 surviving copies. There were indeed 600 copies "printed" but they were not all distributed. And it was a very long time before they were given any kind of significant value over the regular issue. You can see the progression on the GPA chart. I have never once said "there are only 100 copies". I have only said that I believe this to be a reasonable statement based on X, Y, and Z facts. I have no doubt there are raw copies lingering around here and there in collections. But again, I certainly would not say there are hundreds upon hundreds. The book is just too valuable, and too many people know the book is too valuable for there not to be more copies on the census and available at any given time for sale on the open market for this to be true IMO. "IMO" being the operative part of that sentence. (thumbs u -J.

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u -J. Right, you don't like it when others post completely unreasonable things. Only you are allowed to do that. Thanks for confirming. (thumbs u except I have done no such thing, and surely not on the order of that one post of yours. -J.

(thumbs u -J.

Sorry, but you're wrong. And, a better statistician than I could use the data you cite to prove it. No need to rely on opinion. The census and "statistical sample" represents only a small portion of the larger picture. Drawing conclusions using that small portion is like suggesting the Mona Lisa is a painting of a cow, because the only portion you see is a small patch of brown dress. It is necessarily flawed "methodology." Not at all. Take Heritage for example. One of the preeminent auction houses for comic books (and other knick knacks). They have offered some of the best and rarest comic books from across all ages. How many Sandman #8 editorials has Heritage auctioned in the last 15 years? Sandman 8, editorial, the most coveted and hardest to find of all the issues in the run? 3. Two slabbed, and one raw. That's it. There's but one sample size for you that supports my position and tends to dispute yours. I don't deny that there is a probability that another 200% of what we see might still be ou t there in the raw. I am simply saying that I highly doubt it is significantly more than that based on what we see (and don't see) coming to market. -J. Heritage specializes in vintage comics. They don't give a hoot about taking moderns in on consignment. They actually turn them down, unless it's a tag along with vintage books. Anecdotal. Next! Oh okay. So I guess all those dozens and dozens of copies of the killing joke, NM 98, sandman 1, walking dead, the nam, Longshot , punisher limited, 1, punisher regular 1, etc etc etc on there are all just figments of my imagination ? And you really think if I called and said "hey heritage I have one of only 3 copies of a sandman 8 editorial in a 9.8 to auction will u take it?" U think that answer would be "no"? Come on. -J.

Now "there's" the condescending BS I was referring to. Your meaningless post added absolutely nothing productive to the conversation. Thanks for playing. (thumbs u -J.

In the Cerebus thread, both Flying Donut and Dale Roberts (two big dealers) said they would price the Cerebus higher. You dismissed that. Here, again, we have a "rare" book. In this thread, again you've dismissed what people have said. Schmidt said he has 5-6 copies of this book and saw 2 more at B'more. Since it's not on a website or GPA or Heritage, you don't consider it. Yes, it may be anecdotal, but you dismiss it entirely. I've made some assumptions, I'll grant you that. But, it's not wild speculation grounded in nothing. It's an educated guess. Is it crazy of me to think that if what Schmidt says is true (he has 5-6 copies) that there may be someone else (or more) that have multiple copies? Is it crazy for RMA to speculate that Neil Gaiman and Tori Amos each have a copy? It's not "condescending BS" just because someone tells you you're wrong. That is not condescending but this is still just speculation. Speculating that "someone else" might have multiple copies is not guessing in an educated manner IMO. It's just guessing. What makes you think that ? Schmidt says he has "5 or 6", which is it ? Somebody else might have 2 or three? Where are those and who is that ? The best we've heard is an occasional sighting of a copy at the occasional con amongst hundreds of dealers. I don't doubt that happens. That also doesn't prove that there are hundreds of raw copies floating around out there. If anything it just prices there's a handful here and there. Which basically supports my point. And not to drag that cerebus nonsense here, I still say that it is irrelevant what a dealer says he would "price" a book at. He could price it at a million it doesn't mean it would sell for that. We actually know what a hulk 181 on all grades will sell for. The best you can hope to do with a cerebus is put your price on it and then cross your fingers for the next six months that it will sell for even a percentage of that. -J.