HighStakesComics

Depending on the poll 55-60% in favor of the 60.

You are assuming that there are HG copies of the 60 for sale. I could buy a handful of nice 54's in the next 2 minutes. The market is speaking rather clearly.

More like 50 years. That does not mean it cannot be done, oh ye of little faith!!

What you cropped, thus hurting your credibility, is the opening paragraph of that text in TT 1 which significantly states that DC is reciting a "brief history of the Teen Titans" when it starts with BB 54 and it is doing so to demonstrate what "you [fans] have to do with it." And what did the fans have to do with it? According to DC, the fans contribution was to "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team." Taken together, in context, TT 1 makes clear that as early as 1966 the official DC position was that the "team" was formed in BB 54, the beginning of TT history, and Wonder Girl was added in BB 60. It also makes clear that in 1964, fans viewed the "new team" of Kid Flash, Robin, and Aqualad as a "team" which could have new members. So you take issue with me leaving out the words "brief history"?. I looked at it as cutting right to the chase. I consider your argument unreasonable and will not give it any more thought. As far as your other arguments, you are trying too hard. DC makes it clear what the author intended by naming & completing the team in 60. This is confirmed by the reference to the "original team in its first case" quote from the 1st reprint and the first appearance together but "not as the Teen Titans" reference from the other BA panel. For an anonymous message board poster to determine the intent of the author 50 years after the fact is also an unreasonable argument. It shouldn't have to be that hard. That is why I find the word "canonical" in the DC wiki write up fascinating. Whomever wrote this was a student of literature, possibly even biblical scripture. It is a direct reference to the New Testament where the book that appears first was actually wrote last. Mark begat Matthew, but it is Matthew that introduces the reader to Christianity. There are 4 "canonical" books of the New Testament. This is where the word originates. By using the word canonical, the author of the wiki entry for BB 60 is stating that this is the book that removes all doubt and ambiguity. This is a very strongly worded statement. I wish there was more clarity into who wrote this.

If you believe that BB 54 is unconditionally the 1st appearance of the Teen Titans there's a good chance I won't be able to change your mind, but you should at least be made aware that there is a very strong case, and possibly a majority of collectors who prefer the #60. That is why this thread exists.

Duck, if slandering me is your best argument to own the 54, I can see why you don't own one yourself. At least I'm honest about what I own and why I think it's key. As I stated earlier Id like to own a few more copies of 60, and spreading the gospel has not helped my cause at all. It has confirmed what I believed initially. That there is early evidence in print that DC considered 60 to be the first appearance for around 15 years after publication. As for the cropped photos Ill post both and let others decide on my credibility.

These are the articles prior to '82 only since I was called a liar for stating DC noted the 60 was the first appearance prior to the shift to the 54 about 30 years ago. Please point out where I was attempting to mislead, Sir?

Duck, you are a schmuck. Here's the articles in question. Without playing connect the dots or trying to convince people that "after" and "later" are indicative of the past, why not just let them look at your sources and decide for themselves? Not once do they state 54 is the first app. Now 60 on the other hand...

It's not. If you're going to convince me that this is somehow not true, you're going to need more than ambiguous editorial text. You don't need to be convinced...DC agrees, 50 years of history agrees, and the market agrees. Convincing anyone else is a moot point. Closer to 30 years would be more accurate, Aggiez. The early reprints indicate DC initially acknowledged 60 as the 1st appearance. The comic industry has leaned over the last few decades towards the 54, and no one disputes that. I'm still surprised no one has picked up on the word "canonical". It's a unique word, and most often used to reference another famous 1st appearance.

Duck, you failed to mention that I was the one who originally posted the footnote from the 54 reprint which proclaims the 3 individuals in 54 "would later become known as the Teen Titans". It appears to me that closer to inception DC took the stance that 60 was the first appearance. I am basing this on the footnotes from the 2 reprints, letter from TT 1, and the panel I listed above. As the collection/speculation of back issues became a business, shortly after the reprints were released, the 54 became the more prominent book. There are about 3.5 copies of 54 on the census for every 1 of the 60. Obviously there are some nice, raw copies of 60 floating around as evidenced by this thread. I also find the wording interesting from DC Wikia whom calls 60 "the first canonical appearance". The use of the word "canonical" is what intrigues me. The word "canon" means to establish clarity/the opposite of ambiguity. Whomever posted this is conceding that some type of event occurred in 54, which may or may not have led to the formation of the Titans, but the events of 60 remove any ambiguity.

Sfcityduck loves the Teen Titans so much he owns zero copies of either book. If you love the Titans so much why don't you fire in on a 54 tomorrow, Duck? Show a little conviction versus 100 posts of slander, propaganda and puffery. Or maybe this little classic is holding you back?

A LOT of problems with the above. First, as you have been told a million times on this thread, no one is claiming that the "team" formed in BB 54 was called the "Teen Titans" in that issue. The "team" was formed in BB 54 and it was named in BB 60. That's the official DC history of the Teen Titans in TT 1, in the first reprinting of BB 54 in the 1973 DC 100 Page Super Spectacular 21, in the Official Teen Titans Index vetted by DC and overseen by folks like Jerry Bails and George Olshevsky, in the DC Silver Age Teen Titans Index, in the DC Teen Titans Showcase, in the DC celebration of the Teen Titans 50th Anniversary, and I'm willing to guess in the new Teen Titans book coming out in less than a month. Second, the story of BB 54 tells you how three young heroes are thrust together by circumstances, adventure together, learn that the sum is more than the parts, and form a team. It is a redux of the story told in Avengers 1. And at the conclusion of the story in BB 54, very last panel, the text celebrates the triumph of this "new team." So as soon as BB 54, DC recognized the formation of a "new team." This view of BB 54 was endorsed by both the next appearance of the "team" in BB 60 and in the backstory told in the first issue of the new team's own title TT 1. Third, what you are doing is constructing a logical fallacy. The fallacy is that you think a team cannot be formed unless it chooses a name. But, there's no logical reason why this must be so. TTA 27 tells us a hero can appear without a name. FF 1 tells us a hero and team can appear without costumes. The hard and fast rule upon which you rely just doesn't exist. The most accurate thing you've said on this thread in a while is that you know the tests you've set up are impossible to meet. That appears to the m.o. of those pushing BB 60. During the course of this thread you and others have tried to rely on DC's "official position," but now that it is clear it doesn't support you, you run from it. Some here wanted evidence that fans viewed BB 54 as creating a team before they would concede it did so. TT 1 now provides that evidence. Yet, I see no statements of acceptance of BB as forming a team. Given these setbacks to your position, I don't think you are interested in setting up tests that can be met. How is this for a test? If Thing, Reed Richards and Johny Blaze randomly crossed each others paths and then the next issue Sue Storm came along and they were deemed the Fantastic Four would the first or second issue be the first appearance of the Fantastic Four? Just like your Avengers argument this isn't going to hold water. Especially not when your puffery fails to cite the other examples used by DC.

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54. Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin..... -J. What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans." Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments: (1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans"; (2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team; (3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and (4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60. Keep it up! You're doing great!! If we agree on (3) and (4), e.g., that the team pre-dated Wonder Girl (hence she was an "addition" to the "team") and that all BB 60 did was name the team, then you're back on the reservation with the official DC position. It's just that if the team who pre-dated Wonder Girl was the Teen Titans I have yet to see a single panel in 54 acknowledging this. The panel does not exist. You have a nice well written origin story, but the first Teen Titans it is not.

Then show me where they appear in 54. Don't take one word out of context and use it as the cornerstone of your argument. Don't post an article that strengthens my argument. I'm a reasonable guy. Clearly I'm passionate about comics. Convince me with one panel that clearly defines a team in perpetuity called the Teen Titans in 54 and Ill pick myself off the pavement and move on. Therein lies the issue. I know what I'm asking you cannot be done.

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54. Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin..... -J. What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans." Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments: (1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans"; (2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team; (3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and (4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60. Keep it up! You're doing great!!

Really? The financial dreams argument? One comic is going to make or break my family's finances? You don't think I could buy a handful of HG 54's tomorrow? The reason I choose to own the 60 is because my ability to read has made it very obvious that the book that requires puffery is the 54. The 60 is easy to defend. I could just sit back and let you post articles that contradict your arguments, but I'm actually intrigued by your motivations since you claim to have no stake in the game. So please tell me, Sir. Why are you using early 40's Germanic propaganda tricks to try and hornswaggle others into seeing things your way? What is your role here?

Problem with your argument here is that Bob Haney has given interviews on the subject. And what he said is that Kashdan (the editor) charged him with writing a "junior Justice League" story and that's what he did for BB 54. Exactly. He may have wrote a junior justice league story, but not a Teen Titans story. The Teen Titans 1st appear in 60. How many times do we need to go over this?

Except for the paragraph below that states they were joined by Wonder Girl and "introduced to the world as the Teen Titans" in #60.

If the DCP #26 goes down, then that means NTT #16 goes down with it, Sir. Do you really want to do that to Captain Carrot?

Very nice book! Thank you, Sir

Probably time for a poll:

Nice copy! Thank you. As is yours, my friend.

My A copy as promised

I'd love to own more copies, but I believe there are many hoarders of this book. They never last long when they are up for sale. So whadduya say, Yoddler? If you post up your 60 Ill put up a scan of my A copy as well.

I still have the same two copies I mentioned earlier. If I'm hoarding I'm doing a poor job of it.