HighStakesComics

The answers have all been posted over the last few pages, Duck. I think you might have erased them on accident when you copied the pictures from the examples I provided.

And lets not forget this. DC's "official" position..........

Sorry you are the one mistaken in regards to that last panel in BB 54 - You really are confusing what this statement means to try and prove your point and continually keep posting it without knowing the back story - the fact it starts with "once again" should have told you that this occurred before in these Brave and the Bold books. The team ups starting with Issue 50 were considered new teams by definition and not something special just for 54 which you continually harp on. Don't believe me ? This.

This.

The team is neither complete, nor given its name in BB 54. You cannot site one specific example where a similar case is considered a 1st appearance. To the contrary, Sub-Mariner #34 (previously pictured) serves as the closest comparison and is not considered the first Defenders. You can argue intent, Duck, but these are the facts: 1.)The team is given its title, The Teen Titans, in #60. 2.)There was never any mention of the TT prior to Wonder Girl's debut. Her first appearance coincides with that of the team. 3.)Robin clearly states the team was formed after the events of 54. By definition, this would make 54 the origin and 60 the first appearance. He does not say the team was formed during or before the events of 54, otherwise you would have a leg to stand on. Both very important books. I will not argue that. 60, however, is the clear cut first appearance. To argue otherwise is to rely on interpretations, semantics and intent. You don't need to look or try that hard. All you really need to do is take a peek at the front covers and DC will tell you in plain English which book is the team's first appearance.

Sometimes trends and charts don't tell the whole story. Once in a great while if you read what's between the covers you can learn what the charts can't teach you. 54 is a wonderful story, but the 1st Teen Titans it is not. All the memes in the world can't change that. I have stated Ive owned a couple of copies of the 60 since the 2nd or 3rd page of this thread. Attacking me won't make your argument any stronger. I believe the merits of the 60 have been demonstrated at no ones expense. All I ask in return is for the same courtesy.

Is there any way to check and see if the metro copy is the same copy that sold 9/14 per gpa?

I have a raw 9.0ish copy, but I'm still accumulating this particular book. I'd like to own several in HG. I believe this to be one of the most undervalued comics of the Silver Age. I'm not sure if the Charleston copy has ever been brought to market, Teddie. CC has been selling the books from the collection here and there since June. If it has transferred previously, GPA doesn't recognize the collection as a pedigree. Here's a link with some more info: http://www.metropoliscomics.com/bookSearch.php?pageSize=40&display=gallery&adv_search_pos=down&searchType=collection&title=&set=58299

It's part of a much larger collection. The BB 60 is a drop in the bucket.

Probably the biggest difference is that BB 54 concludes by celebrating the creation of a "new team of DC heroes" and Subby doesn't. Probably the second biggest difference is the next issue of Subby doesn't refer back to the prior issue as the origin of that new team. Just like B&B 60 doesn't refer to B&B 54 as the origin of the Teen Titans. It explicitly says the Teen Titans were formed "after" B&B 54. No. What Robin says is: "Teen Titans is a group junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teen-agers of Hatton Corners.* *Brave and Bold 54." Of course, at the end of B&B 54, after the adventure is concluded, it states: "Once again, a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed!" Taken together, you can easily conclude that the team was formed in BB 54 as a direct result of the Hatton Corners adventure told and concluded therein. This is like instant replay, unless you got clear evidence that the original call was wrong you don't get it over turned. If anything, the evidence supports the view that has been predominant for the last 50 years. No one is questioning whether or not Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin acted as a team. In BB 60 Robin specifically states the "Teen Titans" were formed AFTER the events of BB 54. Did Subby, Hulk and Surfer act as a team in Subby 34? Is 34 not the closest comparable to the discussion at hand? If you can find a better one I am am all ears. But #34 is not considered the first appearance of the Defenders? The book where the entire team is introduced and presented with the name that will stick with them in perpetuity, however, is given that accredation. Shouldn't the same rules apply here?

Here's another footnote. TTA 35 fans might have a leg to stand on if Marvel didn't clearly state their position by claiming on the front cover this story is the "Return of the Ant-Man", clearly implying TTA 27 was the debut. It's important to note no such claims are made in BB 60, and as jtlarsen mentioned, DC states within BB 60 the team originated only after the events of BB 54. My position is this: BB 54:1st Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin team-up. Origin of Teen Titans. BB 60:1st Donna Troy as Wonder Girl; 1st Teen Titans The two key SA TT books no doubt, but the labeling in its current form simply is not correct.

I love it. You've been a good sport, duck. We may not agree, but for the most part it's been a respectful discussion. I apologize for my tenacity, but in the words of the immortal Abe Lincoln, "right makes might". I'm a believer in the merits of my argument.

So DC is releasing a book called 50 Years of Teen Titans and the author of the article even states that the team was first called the Teen Titans in BB 60. It's not like they timed the release of the new hardcover to hit stores on the 50th Anny of BB 54. Ironically, the book will hit the shelves about 50 years after the halfway point in between BB 54 & BB 60. And where does it say DC is promoting 2014 as the year of the Teen Titans? No comment on the 1st Defenders either? Some of the propaganda in this thread is out of control.

Still trying to understand the difference between the book pictured above and the BB54

Y'know I would be real curious to see the panel from the Teen Titan index if anyone would care to throw it up

(thumbs u Anyone who proclaims to be shining an altruistic beacon of truth to set the record straight is kidding themselves... Nice BB 54 you have there, Yoddler. Look, please don't shoot the messenger. As I mentioned before I have a couple 60's. Financially speaking, I have put my money where my mouth is. I'm not trying to alienate anyone here. I'm just pointing out at the very least there is certainly some grey area. We all share a common interest that brought us here. That does not mean we cannot disagree from time to time

Buddy, all the money in the world cannot re-write history. BB 60 completes the team and calls them the Teen Titans. Every reference noted by DC states the team was formed after the events of 54. If DC intended 54 to be the first Teen Titans, don't you think they would have introduced them as such in the first place? Yet another red herring from the BB 54 crowd. It's easier than unsuccessfully arguing the merits of the book itself.

No one here is arguing whether or not BB 54 is an important issue. It's the first time a fraction of the original Titans teamed-up to fight evil. It also served as a prototype for the team that would later be deemed and make their first appearance as the Teen Titans in BB 60. I would agree that your arguments pertaining to later reprints are layered in ambiguity.

Correction: The nameless team of heroes made their debut in BB 54. But, you're right that they did add a member and did first use the name Teen Titans in BB 60. The, as DC put it, "new team" first appeared in BB 54. The name and a new member first appeared in BB 60. Again, very similar to TTA 27. But more so to Marvel Feature #1.

A nameless team of heroes that added a member and later made their debut as the Teen Titans in BB 60. These are facts you cannot dispute. You just fall back on the trademark argument when you get backed into a corner.

Which of these is unraveling? "Team", by definition, means more than one person working together. What you state is obvious since BB 54 is a team up between Robin, Kid Flash & Aqualad. I honestly don't think you understand the semantics involved in the argument you are making.

You've just established its a Wiki, because someone edited it back. That was quick. From what I can tell Steveinthecity's link allows for editing. The seperate links I provided for the 54 & 60 do not.