HighStakesComics

Every time you mention the DC Wikia (not run by DC), I am embarrassed for you. Especially, since that site which is contradicts DC's official position as reflected in the first reprinting of BB 54 (labeling it a Teen Titans story) and the official DC Teen Titans Archive. The rest of your statement above is gibberish and a strawman. The argument for BB 54 requires you to read and rely upon the content BB 60, most notably the exchange between Batman and Robin on page 5 and footnoted citation to BB 54 therein. The argument for BB 54 is in now way contradicted by the cover or splash of BB 60, neither of which states that it is the "first appearance" of the group called therein as the "Teen Titans." (I'm not disputing its the first use of the trademarked name for that group.) The argument for BB 54 being the first adventure of the Teen Titans is actually the same as the argument for Avengers 1 being the first adventure of the Avengers -- an argument you ignore. You can keep fighting the fight, but I think logic, history, and DC are against you on this one. P.S. Please don't mention the D.C. Wikia again. The front page of the wikia makes clear that "This is the world's largest DC Comics encyclopedia that anyone can edit, hosted by wikia." It is a Wiki. Not a DC corporate site. You, good sir, are the spouter of gibberish. Not a single comic comes to mind that officially announces on the splash page that its the "official first appearance" of anything. That is somewhat ridiculous. It's the first time the group is referred to as the Teen Titans. This cannot be disputed. If DC Wikia is so easily manipulated maybe you should go on there and change it back to 54? It probably wouldn't take you as long as losing.

Which is why BB 54 is the origin of the team. The team in Avengers was formed only after the battle in Avengers 1. Nonetheless, as a matter of story continuity, the first Avengers adventure is not Avengers No. 2, where they ride into battle as "the Avengers," but the battle in Avengers No. 1 which inspires them to form the team. It's pretty typical of these type of group formations that the heroes come together, have an adventure, and after the battle form a team. That's what happened with TT. Just like the Avengers. It's just that they didn't get their trademarked name until their second appearance, not their first. Again, if you collect trademarks, BB 60 is your book. If you want the complete Teen Titans story, BB 54 is your book. The trademark argument is a red herring, as is the IH 180. The topic of our little debate is what is the first appearance of the Teen Titans? All these parlor tricks cannot repress the truth. The argument for the BB 54 is the one that requires you to ignore the footnotes, covers, splash pages, 1st appearances of other team ups, Wonder Girl, and DC Wikia.

What's the bigger book? Luke Cage 48 or Power Man & Iron Fist 50? Much better comp than TTA 27 BTW, in my humble opinion. Also, no footnotes in TT #4. No one is debating BB 54 is a critical book for TT collectors, but how much longer will you defend 54 is the first appearance, Duck? Every footnote, including the one you're in love with on page #5 of #60 very clearly states the team is formed "after the events" of #54. This is not an opinion. It's a fact.

Here are the questions in this debate along with their answers: Are the Teen Titans ever mentioned in BB 54?-No When are the Teen Titans first referenced?-Front cover BB 60 When the Teen Titans are first referenced what is their lineup?-Robin, Kid Flash, Wonder Girl, Aqualad Are the Teen Titans ever referenced w/o Wonder Girl?-Page 5 of BB 60 where Robin tells Batman the team was formed not during, but after the events of BB 54 Cover of BB 60 aside, when is the first point of reference of the Teen Titans within the actual story-Page 1 of BB 60. Wonder Girl is included in the lineup. What is the 1st App of Donna Troy as Wonder Girl?-BB 60 Would there ever be a Teen Titans in the first place w/o BB 54?-Yes. BB 60 clearly defines the team in perpetuity. Would there ever be a Teen Titans w/o BB 60?-No. BB 60 is the beginning of the TT literary canon of stories that continues to this day, albeit with a new lineup. Nowhere has DC ever indicated that BB 54 is the first appearance of the TT. In fact, DC Wikia claims 60 is the 1st appearance. We are unsure of who controls this information. The Teen Titans, non-DC oriented Wikia site lists 54 as the 1st app. My friends, there are some extremely intelligent members of this board. I've tried my best to stick to facts here rather than expressing my opinions. Ultimately you will have to decide how to spend the money you've allocated towards comics in your personal collection. I have done my best to express concerns here about how CGC and OPG view these books and point out that 54 is not the slam dunk many feel it is. There's an awful lot of grey area here. As for myself, I do own a couple copies of BB 60, but Id like to acquire a few more. They are awfully tough over 9.0 and this thread probably won't do me any favors. Whether you agree with me or not, I wish you all a good Sunday.

I think you need to work on accuracy. The splash page of BB 60 is not part of the narrative of the story. It's a splash page previewing the story. And, no, I'm not disagreeing that BB 60 is the first comic to use the term and trademark of "Teen Titans." My only point was factual: That the first time the term is used in the narrative flow of the story is on p. 5 when Robin explains to Batman the origin of the Teen Titans. Ill concede that as long as I ignore the cover, splash page and the fact that Wonder-Girl first appears in 60, that 54 then is the first appearance of the Teen Titans.

Once again, gang, you just heard somebody write here that what is listed on this page, the very first included in issue 60, does not include a reference to the Teen Titans "within the story". Covers excluded, this is the first mention of the team ever in newsprint. This is not an opinion, it's a fact. My buddy, the duck, also is quoting a panel where Robin specifically states the Teen Titans were formed AFTER the events that transpired in issue 54. He does not state these events took place DURING issue 54. Once again, not an opinion. This is a fact.

Once again, the first textual reference to the Teen Titans is Issue #60 FC followed by page 1. Both the FC and page 1 include Wonder Girl as an original member. Wonder Girl does not appear in 54. The same panel you like to quote from, the banter between Batman and Robin, also takes place in 60. It's important to note, this panel takes place further along into the story than the introduction of both Wonder Girl and the Teen Titans. As for the real estate comparison, it was meant to point out the tremendous difference between the singular and the plural. Historically, you are using first appearances of individuals to argue the first appearance of a team. This is what many on these boards would describe as a Straw-Man argument. You are using a point of reference that has absolutely zero, nothing, zilch to do with the debate at hand to strengthen your argument. IH 180/IH 181 is similar in nature. Neither has anything to do with the merits of arguing what may or may not be the first appearance of a team. The argument, in essence, holds as much merit as comparing a piece of residential real estate to a commercial piece of real estate. The comparison simply does not hold water. There are two comparisons here that do. Avengers #1 and Sub-Mariner #34. It's important to note that only once the team is complete and under the guise of "The Avengers" is it considered the first appearance. When a fraction of the team appears together this is not the case. No one is beating the drum claiming TTA 44, where a couple original team members appear together is the first appearance of the Avengers. It is only when they all appear as one, and call themselves the Avengers that we consider it to be their first appearance. Sub-Mariner 34 is the other team oriented book you refer to, and like BB 54 it is clearly a prototype. Once again, only once the team is complete and under the guise of the Defenders do we consider it their undisputed first appearance in Marvel Feature #1. These are facts, gentlemen. We cannot repress the truth for it will always come to light. I fear we are making things too complicated. All we really have to do is look at the two covers and they will tell us wherein the true 1st appearance of the Teen Titans lies.

IH 181 is clearly the 1st app. IH 180 does not pass the ASM 299 test. I am convinced ASM 299 is the lengthiest cameo in the history of comics, but it is still a cameo. Any book that features a lengthier appearance with more dialogue (See Strange Tales 180 & Forever People 1) should be considered a full appearance. IH 180 does not meet that criteria.

Wikipedia lists BB 54 as the first appearance of the Teen Titans. That's about as authoritative as DC Wikia. In other words, neither is canon or controlled by DC. On the other hand, from the time of it first reprinting in 1972 on through until its inclusion in the office DC Teen Titans Archive, BB 54 has been referred to by DC as a Teen Titans story. So DC is pretty clear on the official position: BB 54 is the origin of the Teen Titans. Of course, this is supported by actual continuity of the Teen Titans storyline. In BB 60, Robin says that the Teen Titans were formed as a result of the events in BB 54. In other words, BB 54 is like Avengers 1. The heroes come together and have an adventure, and at the conclusion they decide to form a team. That Wonder Girl is not in the first Teen Titans adventure is about as meaningful as the fact that Speedy and Beast Boy aren't either. Like the Avengers, the line-up changes. All you have established is that the term "Teen Titans" was first used in BB 60. That's pretty dang obvious. But, ultimately meaningless. The formation of the group precedes the adoption of an official name. It happens. Trying to do away with 42 years of DC and Overstreet history in a retcon seems unlikely to deserve or obtain any traction. When you have to reference the 60, in an attempt to strengthen the argument for the 54, you are actually weakening the argument for the 54, by using the 60 as the point of reference. How about this example? If I were a real estate appraiser, and I used single family homes to determine the value of a multi family, I would probably end up losing my license or at the very least get a slap on the wrist. That is exactly what is occurring when you fall back on the TTA 27 is the gospel argument. You cannot compare the first appearance of an individual to the first appearance of a team. The better comparable, the Sub-Mariner Defenders tryout issues, are not considered the first appearance. It is not until Marvel Feature #1, when the team is complete and named on the cover, that the Defenders first appear. Why should the case be any different with the Teen Titans?

This is actually a pretty important argument. I'm not necessarily sure it's strange to question why a book is considered a first appearance when: A.It never acknowledges the team in question is even appearing. B.One of the founding members, per the first mention of the team ever, doesn't appear in the story. & C.Theres a book where A & B actually take place??? So here's the argument for 54 1.TTA 27-OAAW #83 could be argued here for the other side, but I feel both are poor comparables. The Teen Titans are a team. Both books referenced debut individuals. See Wonder-Girl 2.Reprints-No one is questioning 54 is a great story, and DC is in the business of selling comics. By including it in Teen Titans reprints, one cannot necessarily draw the conclusion BB 54 is the true 1st appearance. See A,B & C. Lets not forget the 300 lb gorilla. DC Wikia. If DC is the one monitoring the site how can you continue to deny the true 1st appearance of the Teen Titans, sfcityduck?

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Maybe an OPG advisor could comment on this? I know there's plenty of them here on the boards.

Any thoughts on this?

I've been having connectivity issues with my scanner all morning. It's on my wireless network. If someone else could post the splash page from their reader, I believe it would settle this once and for all.

You make a valid point, sir, but the Titans are a team that began with 4 members, and each of them first appeared separately from the others. The first issue they appear together is the first appearance by definition. I don't want to wake my kid up by going to my office and use the scanner, but I believe the splash page of #60 leaves no doubt as to which book the first appearance occurs. The first time they are mentioned as a team Wonder-Girl is included. She does not appear in 54. Ill scan the splash of my reader tomorrow unless someone beats me to the punch.

How can it be the first appearance of the Teen Titans if it never acknowledges that the Teen Titans are even appearing?

The label says "New Wonder Girl-Donna Troy". I'm guessing this is a different Wonder Girl than the one whom originally appeared in the WW run.

That's a real nice 7.0 and you have to respect the WP. I'm seeing some beautiful books, but no one seems to be debating the merits of #54

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FWIW, here my $.02. I believe a strong case can be made for the #60. Here's why: 1. The Title-Whereas 54 appears to be a Brave and the Bold featuring an an Aqualad, Kid Flash & Robin team-up, 60 clearly defines on the FC that these are indeed the Teen Titans. 2. First Point of Reference-As two previous posters mentioned there is no reference made within 54 declaring these are the "Teen Titans" until the Batman/Robin dialogue in issue 60. While 54 can be considered the first team-up, there is nothing articulated to the reader pertaining to a "team" in perpetuity. 3. The Inclusion of Wonder-Girl-Making her first appearance in 60, the addition of Wonder Girl as a founding member constitutes the formation of the original team. Prior to her debut, there was never any reference to the Teen Titans, therefore it would be hard to argue that the team existed prior to 60.

I can see why you are torn. Very nice!

Some sick copies of 60 getting thrown up.

She's got a nice buzz going

That's a beautiful copy. Are you waiting for them to correct the label before you send it in?

The black cover is brutal above 9.0