drotto

Ok, just a question, if it has been covered before, sorry I missed it, after there was an explosion of like 200 posts in 2 hours. My head hurts.

How was the 350 list generated?  Is this standard grading submissions from the suspected scammer, or just reholder submissions? Or a combination of the two? All his submissions? The sequential certificate numbers would indicate initial grading submissions, while the one off numbers could be either, since reholders keep the original number. If it is all submissions from a high volume submitter, even the 350 number seems low.  I am just a collector and have submitted 50 or so books over the years. 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:19 PM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

Agreed, this is all the books attached to one account, or maybe one name, if they could determine the individual was using multiple accounts.  It does not include people that may be associated with this individual, or just others running the same scam, and CGC has no reason to investigate at this point.

Also CGC wants all the tainted books gone, even if proven legitimate. Like you said they arw toxic. They do need to look at all these books, I suspect many of them are actually legitimate, or to some a disappointing amount may be.  The fraud, I suspect are concentrated on those where he submitted an extreme amount of books. I would not be surprised if all the SA, and other lower number books are fine.

On 1/4/2024 at 10:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I'm still waiting on an answer as to how the 350 can be the total number of books that are suspect if this guys has sold a great many more books over the course of 15 years on eBay. Not necessarily every book that was swapped went back to CGC, some may have been sold or traded off into the wild. Every serial number of a CGC he every sold is just as questionable as the ones that he submitted to CGC. If CGC didn't catch the swap, then the average customer may not either. Blue label for Blue label ASM#300's could have been swapped from 9.8 to 9.4.  Then He sent legit raw 9.8 to CGC to get another slab to swap with another 9.4.  That would be the simplest scheme given the high number of the same books to keep a pipeline going and not risk being caught by CGC every time.

I suspect these are all the books linked to one account or individual.  We do not know if they are investigating multiple accounts, or if multiple individuals are doing the same scam.  

I would like to know if they are trying to broaden this to other accounts.  If so, the affected number of books could grow. That is very important at this point.  It seems like CGC is really leaning into the one bad egg senerio, and is unconvinced or unwilling to expand it.

On 1/4/2024 at 9:27 AM, pdags said:

Maybe I missed something, but 

• Before sending to CGC, I have a book encased with a mis-matching label (clear fraud)
• After re-holdering, I have a book in a case with matching label. (normal book)

Until I know legal authorities are content with their evidence, the situation, and are recommending this behavior, I'm not relinquishing my best evidence to CGC.  

Once CGC starts seeing these books, it would also be nice to know exactly what they are finding.  Let's see some videos of them cracking a hulk 181 and paging to the missing MVS.  They need to be transparent about what they are actually finding, and if they are indeed pursuing this criminally they must be documenting every suspect book they review in extreme detail, and better yet in view of legal authorities.  

On 1/3/2024 at 7:38 PM, LordRahl said:

That's what I was getting at. He isn't doing this with 1 copy of ASM 300 when there are 70+ copies on that list. But I guess he likely is sitting on several 9.8 copies that he keeps resubbing. Which also means the census is even more wildly inaccurate than I previously thought, at least for ASM 300 and 194. There are dozens of ghost 9.8s just from this one guy not to mention everyone else that CPR's without turning in the label.

Yes, most likely has a handful of 9.8 that are constantly resubbed. That would also offset it if that 9.8 does occasionally come back as a 9.6, so they still have other 9.8's ready to go.

Since these are high value books and he needs turn around to keep this going, he is likely using a higher tier and paying for fast track.  The increase in cost is insignificant compared to the profit from increased turnover.

I wonder what was going on with those few SA books?  I think someone said some of those FF's are known books with missing pinups, and other pattern there?

On 1/3/2024 at 1:04 PM, comicwiz said:

Books requiring interior inspection are the ones that I first began using in my approach/strategy. The issue becomes what was the prevailing thinking for each example. We don't know (at least not yet) why we haven't seen any purple to blue. Too gutsy? I think it's because Hulk 181's are notorious for missing the MVS, and so the supply of qualifieds that have already had graders eyes on it, and going for better presenting than assigned grade, to make the kind of jumps we've seen a little more believable, and not trigger doubt enough to scrutinize more carefully. It's a laser guided approach, gets you thinking like the bad actor, and more of a custom-catered strategy to tackle searches for a match with each nuanced book. I've looked over that FF 4, and hadn't thought about the missing pin-up, I decided instead to work from purple labels. I may not find many qualified, but spit-balling is good if it can bring about some ideas to form strategies around. 

As far as restoration goes....

1. Is it just more obvious to the knowledgeable collectors, so they are afraid it would get spotted faster?

2. Is it lower yield, meaning the numbers to hid this are not there, and resto is far more a GA and SA issue.

3. Is the cost benefit to risk factor not there? Most resto marked books tend to be lower grade and amateur.  The high grade ones are already very expensive, and usually have an obvious look to them.

On 1/3/2024 at 10:32 AM, Junkdrawer said:

Back in the dawning days of VHS stores renting tapes out. They were expensive and the “unscrupulous” would open/tamper the plastic shell and remove the original and replace it with either a copy, a blank, or whatever. The good guys put a security label that was tamper evident. CGC simply needs a tamper evident sticker. 

Initially, I liked the sticker idea, more I think about it, not so much.  We have to remember how much some of these slabs are handled. Sold multiple times, shipped, in comic boxes, taken to shows, not to mention the number of hands just touching slabs. They would just never hold up and would either peel, or get very warn. 

Back to marking the inner well, and working on making the outer case more tamper evident.

On 12/26/2023 at 2:30 PM, Gatsby77 said:

But some of this is likely not specific to Aquaman 2 itself, but rather general superhero fatigue.

I know...I know...

But look at the top films of 2023.

Barbie and Super Mario Bros. took the top 2 slots, and only 3 superhero films were among the top 10.

Plus - the top comic book film of the year (in the # 3 slot) was an animated one, not officially part of either the MCU or DCEU.

The Flash and The Marvels fell well outside the top 20, and Blue Beetle and Shazam 2 (and likely now Aquaman 2) fell well outside the top 30.

The predictable result?

Fewer comic book films we be greenlit going forward and those that are will likely have smaller budgets.

It's not superhero fatigue entirely,  it marginal to bad movie fatigue.  It is just an endless stream of sameness. The film are very predicatable, and usually the character developement is weak. If you start putting out films of similar quality to phases 1 to 3 of the MCU some fans would come back. Same as if you were making films like the Nolan Batman films.

I am not saying there is not good stuff out there, but the massive amounts of meh, are turning people away from the better stuff.

On 1/3/2024 at 12:45 AM, silent06 said:

I say this rhetorically, but you have got to be kidding me. It is the same book that prompted this entire thread and the discussion that has ensued.  This guy is no criminal mastermind, not even close to clever or cautious for that matter.

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285589090234?hash=item427e6fafba:g:TIwAAOSwqwplbAkk 

Granted, it may not be him.  People have been taking other's photos to create fraudulent listings for years.  I posted an account as a scam about 3 months ago that was listing old Heritage photos as books for sale.  This may just be a wild coincidence.  

On 1/3/2024 at 12:03 AM, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Second photo.  It is one of those stolen accounts.  Asking buyers not to bid , but to contact them directly at an email to buy it now. I reported it as I do with all of these. If enough people do they get taken down. They seem to target accounts with good feedback to add legitimacy to the scam.

Edit to add photo:

I reported it also.  I may be mistaken, but this appears to be a photo of the scam book that started all of this.

On 1/2/2024 at 5:53 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Lol. No, it's not. 140 comments when CGC slabs thousands of books a week?

This story is a non-starter to the collecting public at-large. They won't even know about it.

True.

The biggest damage to the comic collecting world comes from two groups.  Investors, who are just buying books as a commodity,  and a way to diversify their portfolio. Many people may say good riddance to this group, but it could have a large negative affect on perceived value if they get out.

The second and definitely more important group is new collectors, and like it or not graded comics provide a lower skill avenue to start buying and trading. Will these people be permanently scared off?

The old farts like us on this forum, who mostly do this for live of the medium, will weather this storm. It will eventually pass.

On 1/2/2024 at 5:01 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

If CGC just started scanning last year? And the scam or "sales" go back to 2011 or something, he probably did or didn't send to cgc for reholder "then?"

Like before cgc started scanning, are the certs the same in swapped books, or just swapped out books in slabs that no one noticed until now? Or is it the pics in gpaanalysis that is the proof?

@drotto

Honestly no idea.  The only proof we have of swapped books, that I have seen here, is from the Gen 3 cases.  We also know that the label was switchable in earlier generations of case, and that scam left basically no apparent case damage.  I suspect his methods have evolved as the cases have changed, and presented him with new obstacles. So maybe the new case does show tampering more easily so he was forced into the reholder method? Maybe he just discovered that getting label notations for things like MJI lead to big profits, and flawlessly faking the label was difficult? Yes, the pictures are a new thing in the registry, but the registry and showing up as valid there has been a thing since basically day one of CGC.

On 1/2/2024 at 4:53 PM, namisgr said:

So my question: what is the motivation to bother with reholdering in this instance?  The copy that is either below an 8.5 grade, suffering damage deserving of a green label, or both, carries an 8.5 blue label when switched into the top case.  Is it because there's is perceptible damage to the top outer case after the switcheroo, which the fraud launders by the reholdering process?  Or is there another reason to reholder that I'm leaving out?

It gives the scammer the legitimacy of the CGC census, since CGC has been rescanning covers after reholdering. So if you look it up, it is this book pictured. It covers any damage that may have occurred to the slab during the switch. Which is essential, because many collectors are very particular about cases, and may question if the book is legitimate if they notice even a hint of damage. 

That is the prevailing theory at this point.

On 1/2/2024 at 2:09 PM, comicwiz said:

The transition points between briva3, zaneglor and corner142:

briva3 - 12/19/2023 - 9/25/2022 (778 records)
zaneglor - 8/28/2022 - 7/6/2014 (706 records)
corner142 - 3/2/2014 - 1/29/2011 (197 records)

So your numbers are suspected/confirmed listing, or do you have a possible number of books involved? 

On 1/2/2024 at 11:06 AM, Iconic1s said:

What about laser engraving the same QR code that is on the label, onto the inner well somewhere?

I have already suggested this a few times,  so yes 100%.  I think all inner wells should have on them the book, the grade, if it is universal/qualified/restored/conserved and the certificate number. I was suggesting a hologram or watermark in the back plastic of the inner well, but some more subtle and "hidden" things would be great.  I am also on board with having some undisclosed marks that only CGC would know or have means to see. Similar to how the government has not disclosed all the anti fraud features on money.

It is also a way CGC can regain trust and put them ahead of the competition. Really come out with the next level slab. 

I can already see collectors running around cons with UV pen lights. 

On 1/2/2024 at 7:04 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

This is where my head is at as well- the inner sleeve is the key to a two part verification system to ensure that inner and outer components of the slab are original. This is probably a more low cost way to implement a layer of security that hardens the target and dissuades fraud.  

Something like this: applied to the inner sleeve in addition to the holder that doesn't detract from the view of the comic and is only visible with the correct equipment. 

Invisible Barcodes For Retailers And Manufacturers

Barcodes and barcode scanning has come a long way over the last few decades and has mainly focused on making them easier to read. To that end, there has been development and an identified need within a range of industries to create “invisible” barcodes. These invisible barcodes are created by using specialized ink that emits a fluorescent “glow” when exposed to certain kinds of lights such as ultraviolet (UV) or infrared (IR) light. This essentially makes the barcode hidden to the naked eye. There are many reasons for barcodes of this nature including aesthetic, as to not ruin the look of a product, as well as brand authentication, security or tracking.

Industry & Application Uses

• Brand authentication – This has become a major problem worldwide over the pass few decades. This includes everything from pharmaceuticals, fake meds from China, to cosmetics and luxury goods such as fake wallets and handbags. Fake products whether imported or not create lost revenue to the manufactures and possible litigation issues to the sellers.
• Package design – Many manufacturers and retailers use packaging with branding and colored designs leaving little room for visible barcodes. Invisible barcodes can be applied without using valuable real estate or interfering with the design. Additionally, these can be applied at different locations on the packaging, allowing barcoding scanners to easily read the codes no matter the positioning on the package.
• Product Identification – Serial numbers and warning labels can utilize invisible barcodes to identify product information including product issues and requirement or possible recalls.

https://www.universeoptics.com/invisible-barcodes-for-retailers-and-manufacturers/

Really like the idea of a UV barcode or watermark on the inner well.  While not impossible to fake, it would take a level of equipment very few "normal" people would have access too.

I think there is a growing consensus of the boards at least that we want to see identification and fraud protection on the inner well.  The key to protect from fraud is the inner well, period. I really think it is impossible to make the out case 100% tamper resistant, so multiple anti tamper measures and redundancies become the key.  

On 1/1/2024 at 11:59 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

I assume new reholder protocols along with a list of all the impacted books is all we’ll be getting from CGC 

Again speculating, but i think that will be the next thing we see. I suspect those reholder protocols changing are what the CGC was referring to in their statement when they were saying changes had already been made. I think further down the line we will be seeing a new case and/or added security measures, but that is something that will take more time and money.  People will need To be patient with that.

On 1/1/2024 at 11:53 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

That's a slight point, but sounds like speculation, convincing nonetheless, but I doubt cgc will come out and admit it.

Sorry to hear that

Yes, speculation a bit on my part, but it seems very reasonable based on what is known at this point. I am not sure what CGC is going to do at this point.  Any guesses at that would also be speculation.

On 1/1/2024 at 11:30 PM, THE_BEYONDER said:

The scammer was trying to avoid CGC scrutinizing the book itself.  A slab that shows no damage helps achieve this goal.

Yes, I think the scammer was trying to get the holder to look not damaged, or minimally damaged.  That way CGC was looking mainly at the case, and determining that the damage to the outer case was insufficient to have damaged the comic, and therefor the comic did not need further evaluation. Off to reholder it goes. At this point it seems the main reason for the comic to be sent back to CGC was

1. to get changes made to the label

2. make sure the book and any pictures associated with it in the registry would look legitimate. 

An added benefit was if any damage was done to the case during the swap the book would get a nice shiny new case.  I think it is possible to get the cases looking close to perfect, with practice.  I am not sure it is possible to get it 100% non detectable for the very observant. We all know how detail oriented and demanding comic collectors can be.  Somebody (likely many somebodies) would quickly be raising red flags if a sellers cases consistently looked off. As proven by what really ended up happening, the collectors were the more observant ones. I think the deception would have been discovered faster, if these books had not been passing through CGC before going back out into the wild. 

YES, CGC should have seen this, if they were truly evaluating the reholders.  That is not in question.

On 1/1/2024 at 5:44 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

To wit he says no, shows noticable subtle hints, but might fool some

 

Hey they beat the cowboys (whom everyone is tired of hearing about across the universe ~ the Beatles) but how about them Rangers.

Happy New Year 

If you are a Rangers fan, you are my new best friend here.

I think with practice, it would go from fooling some, to fooling most. 

Thinking the book was a reprint, he said earlier he only had a few cheap slabs to practice on. 

@comicwiz Just wow, impressive work.

On 12/31/2023 at 1:48 PM, bc said:

Absolutely nothing happens.

-bc

He'll, with a chip you can get very high tech and imbed the graders notes, pictures etc in it also.

Just had another thought.  CGC has never viewed the inner well as really being important.  When the new case first came out in the creep engine varient, they tried very hard to eliminated the inner well entirely. It was seen as a hindrance.  Everything was about the hard case. The only reason it was bought back is it was needed to properly center and hold books inside the case without damaging them.  So we have evidence they have never viewed the inner well as essential to maintaining certification. That is thr mindset that needs to change at CGC.

It is also now clear, the new case was only designed from the standpoint of improving presentation, and nothing to do with enhancing security.

On 12/31/2023 at 12:04 PM, sledgehammer said:

I don't think I would mind if something was at the bottom of the back cover. Something in a small, straight line, as close to the bottom of the inner sleeve as possible.

Otherwise, it's a new holder design that's necessary.

Changing the inner well like this would possibly save them from needing to redesign the entire case.