LordRahl

On 1/5/2024 at 7:52 AM, THE_BEYONDER said:

Is there any evidence that the scammer was selling swapped books that didn’t first go to CGC for a reholder?

I would love to know this as well

On 1/5/2024 at 6:13 AM, drotto said:

That run a 4 consecutive ASM 300 is what makes me think he has at least 4 real 9.8's, certainly enough to really keep this rolling.

 

Still astounds me that one person submitting that many high grades from two or three issues would not raise any red flags. Who has that kinda supply of ultra high grades.  I have heard of people hoarding copies of key books, but never of that consistent quality level. 

He absolutely has more than 1 ASM 300 in 9.8 that he's resubbing with. It's not a hard book to find in 9.8 as long as you have the cash and there is no way he's doing this 1 book at a time. 

On 1/4/2024 at 5:58 PM, gmasstermcd said:

Where are you selling books at market value? Even Heritage takes 30% so you are only selling at 70% market value, and if you go to a comic shop you are lucky to start negotiating at 50% of FMV.

 

I can answer this question if you can tell me what "market value" is? How about just use an example. What is market value for XMen 101 in 9.8?

On 1/4/2024 at 5:42 PM, shadroch said:

I'm not sure Ewert did anything illegal. He submitted books and CGC missed the fact they were micro-trimmed.  It's unethical and immoral, but where is the crime? 

Crime? Where did I say anything about crime?

On 1/4/2024 at 3:10 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

Does anyone here actually think this hurts the current value of their own CGC books they currently own?

Please quote me so I can ask you the next question.

All my books are now worth tree fiddy. May as well use them as kindling. Is that the right answer? 

On 1/4/2024 at 2:21 PM, LordRahl said:

Right! I mean the ASM 300's I get but 194's? Random!

Speaking of which I just saw today that CGC upcharged a couple of my books from Modern to High Value. Which normally is a good thing but guess what one of those books is? And I can't see the grade yet but I presume it will be a 9.8 given the upcharge

On 1/4/2024 at 2:19 PM, agamoto said:

*coughHowTheHellDoesAnyoneGetFiftySevenSpidey194's@9.8scough*

Right! I mean the ASM 300's I get but 194's? Random!

On 1/4/2024 at 1:13 PM, MasterChief said:

Seems to be a lot of talk about CGC taking legal action against the alleged perpetrator tampering with CGC holders. Perhaps in the future it will become known whether or not criminal proceedings were initiated by CGC or the Federal government.

By way of comparison, nothing of any legal consequence was taken by CGC against Jason Ewert as a result of his alleged fraudulent scheme. The only aftereffect that is publicly known is that Ewert was banned from submitting comic books to CGC and that then CGC President, Steve Borock, told Ewert to “get out of the hobby and do not look back.”

The lone litigation initiated against Ewert was driven by a collective of CGC board members and comic book collectors, as announced in The Collector eNewsletter by GPAnalysis in February of 2006. Here’s the announcement as published...

Perfect illustration of what NWO @NewWorldOrder and I have said multiple times in this thread. 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:13 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Some advice. Think, and perhaps read, before you open your mouth. Seriously, do us all a favor.

This isn't the only legal entanglement CGC/NCG/Heritage/WATA/Halperin etc have been involved with. In those scandals, people were named long before a court decision. 

On 1/4/2024 at 12:01 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Totally. So unrealistic CGC's sister company NCG named Richard Albright as the fraudster in a similar scam regarding coins. But you're right, totally unrealistic. 

 

I know you're not actually this dense. They named him AFTER they won a court case, which would have then been public record anyway. You are asking them to name the guy NOW, which is looooong before any sort of court case has even started, let alone concluded with a decision in CGC's favor. Totally the same thing, right?

On 1/3/2024 at 11:38 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

Done 

93 members have signed up so far - it would great if we could surpass the figures for 2023 

 

 

The last contest I participated in was a "guess the grade on this low and/or mid grade Golden Age book" with at least half of the books falling in this category. I commented on it during the contest asking why it was so heavily skewed towards this although there are plenty of other ages and grade ranges that were not well represented. I was naturally told to shut it so I did. As I have no interest in guessing the grade on low/mid GA, I'm choosing not to participate in future contests. I know I will get skewered for this post and debated on whether to even bother posting it but since the recruitment is being brought up in multiple threads, I thought I'd give you my perspective on why participation may be lower than usual. 

On 1/4/2024 at 10:22 AM, BrashL said:

This is the right take unfortunately. Let’s think about this a second. What was his crime against buyers?  He sold them a book that was certified as a certain grade by CGC. He delivered that book.  If I sell someone a 9.8 that everyone else thinks should have been a 9.4 did I rip anyone off? He exploited CGCs lax QC and the case itself, but none of the comics were counterfeits, they just weren’t what CGC said they were. 

What about books that didn't go through CGC for a reholder and were just swapped out? I'm not sure it's been proven that this happened and if not, it's entirely possible that only reholdered books were swapped but I wouldn't bet on it.

On 1/4/2024 at 10:27 AM, agamoto said:

FBI doesn't prosecute, they investigate. Correct me if I'm reading you wrong here, but you're saying that the Feds shouldn't get involved, and CGC should just make everything right so that no one has to have a valuable book up in the air for too long? How is that going to bring any justice here? I've been told that previous major fraud cases in the past, ie. Dupcak, Ewert, were also handled internally, and neither of those folks faced any sort of criminal or civil punishment for what happened. Anyone here know the history behind that? 

No, no, not at all. The poster I was responding to was suggesting that the owners of the tainted books not take up CGC on their review and recertify option but rather send the books in as "evidence" for the prosecution. In which case those books would be stuck in limbo while the process of investigating, indicting and prosecuting plays out. That would take likely years with the owners not having either the book or the money for the book while they wait for everything to play out. I'm just saying that no one will sign up for that and it's a terrible suggestion.

On 1/4/2024 at 10:06 AM, agamoto said:

There are other sources out there, like worthpoint.com, where I, and others, many hundreds of ads from the seller, across multiple accounts, going back to 2006. Kinda thought that was common knowledge in this thread already, but I don't begrudge you if you haven't looked at all 260 pages!

Indeed I have not but I did learn something useful today so thank you for that!

On 1/4/2024 at 10:00 AM, pdags said:

Actually, I did work for government (not federal) and in my past job I worked with the FBI on multiple occasions.  They were always very responsive and only *recommended* we didn't tell people we were working with them.  To be fair, I worked in a completely different industry which had ties to national infrastructure and wouldn't expect as much responsiveness from them as in the comic book industry.

 

 

 

So you seem to have some idea of how long this could take, assuming the FBI even decided to prosecute AND your advice to the owners is to just send their books in and wait for what could be years? Wild!!! I assume you would be the first one to send in a $10K+ book and just wait years in limbo while the process plays out 

On 1/4/2024 at 9:47 AM, Iconic1s said:

Agree!  In my mind the only thing that really restores confidence in the CGC brand is the prosecution of those that did this.  That’s when we’ll see the strength of the CGC “guaranty.”  CGC needs to make an example out of these people using the full power of their lawyers and the legal process to do so.

I was not around for the trimming scandal but learned of it reading this thread… I also read all the links about it that people posted here.  I saw a quote from the then head of CGC telling the guy to “leave the hobby or be prosecuted” or something like that.  I honestly think that was pretty lame then, and it would definitely be a wildly wrong attitude now.  These people need to be named in legal documents and have their livelihood stripped from them.

At this point I don’t even think the slab needs a redesign… CGC just needs better practices for examining reholders to find tampering.  Otherwise it is fine for anyone not a criminal, and after these scammers are made an example of anyone of that mind will think twice before trying to get one over on CGC again.

I agree but the problem with this is that our legal system takes time and until this person is being prosecuted, I would expect CGC to stay silent on details that have to do with the prosecution (which would be almost everything at this point). That could take months if not years.

On 1/4/2024 at 9:19 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I get that, but they can’t know which one’s were tampered with unless all of them are sent back, which likely won’t happen. But these 350 are not substantially different from the entire list of slabs sold by the perp in terms of their potential counterfeit nature. All books that passed through his hands are equally tainted. That list of serial numbers is the real list, whether CGC chooses to honor it or not. I get that they would not be financially liable for them if they weren’t laundered through them but they might want to get those books checked and off the naughty list regardless for the same reason, as would any owner of those books. They are radioactive at this point. 

Maybe I'm missing something here but how would CGC or anyone else for that matter know what this list is? I believe you can look up past ebay sales for only a few months. Or is there some way I don't know of to see what an ebay account has sold for years in the past? Other than a law enforcement agency subpoenaing ebay's records that is.  

On 1/4/2024 at 7:02 AM, MatterEaterLad said:

At this point if CGC cares about the collecting community, they need to release the name. 

Instead of just looking up certs, it would be helpful for those who might have purchased directly from this person.

Also, it would reassure the community that this was only one person and not several. And not a CGC employee.

Yes, I know, lawyers might be advising against this. But those attorneys care about CGC first and the rest of us second, if at all.

If boardies know, they should step up. 

 

Do you care about some random stranger more than you do about yourself? If you could do something that is detrimental to you but beneficial for said random stranger, would you? 

I don't know what kind of fairy tale world you all live in but posts like this continue to amaze me. Unrealistic is putting it mildly.

On 1/4/2024 at 5:35 AM, pdags said:

This is tricky...  If I've been scammed the only * evidence * I have is the book/slab itself.  If I send that into CGC for review and possibly a re-holder, I no longer have the evidence.  CGC needs to inform people that they are working with the FBI, otherwise they may tampering with individual's evidence and ability to personally prosecute.  

I don't know what legal advice CGC is getting, but individuals of very high valued books should consider getting their own legal consultation before shipping their books off to CGC; who may or may not be working with the FBI (or equivalent).

IMHO, these books should be sent first and foremost to the FBI for criminal prosecution, not CGC for re-holdering.

Problem with this approach is you can kiss your book and money goodbye for at least the next several years if not forever while the FBI figures out IF they want to investigate/prosecute and then for that prosecution to play out. If you have ever dealt with the federal government, you know this is well let's just say... a lengthy process. I don't see too many people signing up for that. 

On 1/3/2024 at 9:13 PM, comeaux said:

CGC  released this list so they should obviously know who the scammer(s) are, why not release the name(s) to protect the community? 

Inside job 

More than likely that is on advice from their lawyers.

On 1/3/2024 at 7:31 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

They stated they'd inspect themselves and "inform cgc", I took that as they wouldn't be sent in and regraded.

That was not clear then my apologies  @COMICLINK

That may have been the initial position but I think CL and any other auction house that has access to any of these will see the need for the books to be examined by CGC and reholdered with new cert numbers if proven to be clean. I didn't read all of Josh's posts but I'm honestly surprised he would not do that

On 1/3/2024 at 7:00 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

 

 and hear me out?

Wouldn't anyone "on the list" want to send in to get a new cert number to then "be off the list?"

Then if they aren't found to have fraud books are then liable for grading fees? (Probably due to cgc insurance wile holding them? Idk)

Yes, I think anyone that has a book on the list should send it in for review. It would be in that person's best interest no matter what the outcome. I don't think anyone suggested otherwise. I think what some of us are saying is that not EVERY book on that list is likely to be tampered with. Like the SS books I'm guessing are just normal untampered with books. This guy obviously deals in comics. I'm sure he has sold normal books in the past but obviously everything he has sold should now come into question.

On 1/3/2024 at 6:45 PM, pickycollector said:

Fortunately I do not have any book from the list but when looking at it, I see books graded several years ago. I would have expected to see listed only books graded a few years ago but the Avengers #57 8.5, for example, was graded in 2008. Is that then just the tip of the iceberg?

I'm assuming any book ever submitted by this guy is on the list. Doesn't mean anything nefarious was going on with that specific book all the way back then.

On 1/3/2024 at 5:13 PM, CJ Design said:

Maybe he has Dylan and his System also...

You lost me here