UPS Arrived At My LCS Earlier Than Santa - ASM #545 & Others

[Underdog]

Everyone who is going to trash your ASM collection, send em to me! I got very little of the books and I'll give them a good home (or sell them)! Heck here's a list of what I already have. Fill in the rest for me rather then burn em!

33, 37, 120, 129, 191, 194, 201, 252, 261, 263, 270, 272, 273, 275

276, 277, 278, 279, 280, 282, 283, 284, 285, 286, 291, 299

326, 330, 331, 340, 342, 349, 350, 361, 362, 368, 374, and 525 to current.

 

[gaz973]

I'll read it and I'll like it!

You old continuity farts can go read the silver age and bronze age stuff repetively all day. See, no change! You gotta grow and change with the ages. Those were the simplest minded stories ever. Brain rot, I call em. I wanna see what happens to the new Spidey!.

 

This is not going to be a new Spidey and he hasn't grown and changed with the ages. Basically they've reset Spidey's status quo to what it was in the 70's. zzz

[Excelsior!-migration]

Now that Harry is back does that mean the Hobgoblin never existed? Either the first or second Amazing Spider-man comic I ever bought off the rack was issue #238. I don't know whether or not I bought the #237 off the rack or as a back issue. I do remember that cool Stilt-man cover with the Marvel Logo shredded. Anyhow, the original Hobgoblin storyline is largely responsible for getting me hooked on comics. Maybe I still would have gotten hooked, but at that time the Byrne X-men run was over and Frank Miller's Daredevil was run was just about finnished. Sucks that the slate has been wiped clean and that story never happened.

[DrWatson]

Give it a few months and everything will be undone again.

 

That sounds redundant.

[Kevin Boyd]

Now that Harry is back does that mean the Hobgoblin never existed? Either the first or second Amazing Spider-man comic I ever bought off the rack was issue #238. I don't know whether or not I bought the #237 off the rack or as a back issue. I do remember that cool Stilt-man cover with the Marvel Logo shredded. Anyhow, the original Hobgoblin storyline is largely responsible for getting me hooked on comics. Maybe I still would have gotten hooked, but at that time the Byrne X-men run was over and Frank Miller's Daredevil was run was just about finnished. Sucks that the slate has been wiped clean and that story never happened.

 

I think you are confused by some of the timelines. Harry Osborn died long after the Hobgoblin debuted. There's no reason to suggest that any of the Hobgoblin stories are affected by this in any way, shape or form. Harry was certainly aware that someone had stolen his father's concepts, and in ASM 314 there's actually a Harry as Green Goblin vs. the Hobgoblin fight.

 

 

[Excelsior!-migration]

I stand corrected. Now that you mention it, I do remember that Hobgob versus Goblin McFarlane issue (at least I remember the cover). I don't recall when Harry Osborne died or what issue. I know they killed off the original Hobgob and replaced him with the guy with the pumpkinhead. I stopped collecting comics in the early 90s after the circulation wars. Anyhow, good to know my childhood stories are unaffected by OMD. Thanks.

[Kevin Boyd]

Always happy to save someone's happy childhood memories.

 

The one thing that these Marvel guys seem to be bending over backwards to get across is that everything pre-OMD is still canon. That is, it all happened --- they just don't remember things being the way that they were.

 

"It's magic... they don't need to explain it."

 

Everything was going along A (as we read it) and now it's B (which even they don't quite understand) but contains the "Spider-Man brain trust vision" of a perfect selling Spider-Man reality.

 

The only thing I can compare this to is Kulan Gath's transformation spell in Uncanny X-Men 190-191. In one instant, everyone on Manhattan went from being the way they were to being hyborian age counterparts, and they all recall lives in such a reality (except Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, and the alien Warlock - all were left immune for whatever reason).

 

So far we've been struggling to find a when were things as we remember them point in the character timeline. There is no such point. His history happened as we remember it happening --- it's just that he and his cast remember it differently (which is pretty much the same lame thing, but it is a fine difference in logic).

 

Before midnight, Peter was married to MJ, Aunt May was dying and Harry Osborn was dead. After midnight Peter was no longer and had never been as far as he recalls married to MJ, Aunt May was no longer dying and no longer recalls being shot and dying, her house had suddenly been returned from the ashes and she and Peter lived there and they no longer recall that it had burned down, Harry Osborn was back from the dead and no one recalls that he was dead or think anything about his reappearance or the questions it raises, Peter no longer recalls that he had biological webbing and suddenly had mechanical webshooters again, and no one at all remembers that Peter is Spider-Man.... even though people remember that Spider-Man revealed his identity no one remembers who was under the mask or why because "magic" prevents them from remembering.

 

This is basically a character specific "House of M" type change.

 

This is lazy writing, definitely. We struggle with trying to explain the hows and whys of this new reality --- because even though the reality is new, the characters lived in it they remember things differently. And someone will always remember that things were different - no doubt we'll see such a cast member soon enough. In House of M it was Wolverine. In the Kulan Gath storyline it was Spider-Man and Warlock.

 

Of course, the loophole is that if this doesn't work out, the someone who remembers will trigger other people to remember and there will be an epic struggle to undo what was done, and Harry Osborn will sacrifice himself again. But if this does work out, and BND has the elements they want to revive sales... then it's new reality all of the way.

 

Zonker compared this to Crisis and Superman. Well, yeah, sort of. Everything fell apart and then came back together again... and as the dust settled entire characters had their histories rewritten. Superman's story was basically the same, but the finer points had changed in the new "reality". Now, 20 years later, some writers are trying to reverse those changes and revive that pre-Crisis history. They nearly have --- the Byrne Man of Steel storyline has already been revised. Krypton no longer resembles that of the Byrne launch. Superman's history is not quite the one presented in Man of Steel.

 

However, OMD isn't quite like that. The deal with the devil has changed reality in the present. The question is, will this new reality hold?

 

...and also, does anyone really care to see if it does or doesn't?

 

 

 

[Rich_Henn]

Nice post, Kevin!

 

It's almost (but not quite as harsh) as AoA in the X-Men, where Bishop was the one guy who remembered everything.

 

Still lazy writing no mater HOW you cut it.

[Mushie]

Well, if this doesn't work out, they can always pull the old "Soap Opera" move and have Peter wake up realizing it was "all a dream."

 

 

[Excelsior!-migration]

and no one at all remembers that Peter is Spider-Man.... even though people remember that Spider-Man revealed his identity no one remembers who was under the mask or why because "magic" prevents them from remembering.

 

Can't they just pick up a recent issue of the Daily Bugle or watch Spider-man's reveal on the History Channel? I mean, did those papers and news footage disappear? Or nobody cares enough to look at them. Will JJJ hire Peter back even though he fired him because he was Spider-man? I don't see how this writing tool works. The only way it works is if Peter never revealed himself to be Spider-man or Mephisto somehow destroys all traces of the reveal from all media as well as mindwipes everyone in the world.

[Kevin Boyd]

Nice post, Kevin!

 

It's almost (but not quite as harsh) as AoA in the X-Men, where Bishop was the one guy who remembered everything.

 

Still lazy writing no mater HOW you cut it.

 

Yes, very much like AoA, except everyone and everything was transformed there, while here the phenomenon is very Parker specific.

[Kevin Boyd]

and no one at all remembers that Peter is Spider-Man.... even though people remember that Spider-Man revealed his identity no one remembers who was under the mask or why because "magic" prevents them from remembering.

 

Can't they just pick up a recent issue of the Daily Bugle or watch Spider-man's reveal on the History Channel? I mean, did those papers and news footage disappear? Or nobody cares enough to look at them. Will JJJ hire Peter back even though he fired him because he was Spider-man? I don't see how this writing tool works. The only way it works is if Peter never revealed himself to be Spider-man or Mephisto somehow destroys all traces of the reveal from all media as well as mindwipes everyone in the world.

 

Well this gets down to their "it's magic... we don't need to explain it" philosophy.

 

In the new reality, Spider-Man revealed his identity but no one remembers who he was... including Jameson and staff. This magic spell has changed what they remember and the archives have probably been altered and the video footage erased (or it's there and the spell prevents them from seeing it).

[Mac Man]

Kevin, I believe I've boiled down your points here... I'm an English guy though, so please feel free to correct my math!

 

 

"it's magic... we don't need to explain it" + lazy writing = One More Day

 

"it's magic... we don't need to explain it" + lazy writing X lack of respect for fanbase = Brand New Day

[awe4one]

This whole scenario goes against the basis of serial writing. Why care what's going on in a storyline or comic when the outcome doesn't have ramifications? The whole concept of following a title or character is to see what happens afterwards...that's why we keep coming back. Lose that and they might as well start numbering every issue #1...

 

Jim

[Ares]

This whole scenario goes against the basis of serial writing. Why care what's going on in a storyline or comic when the outcome doesn't have ramifications? The whole concept of following a title or character is to see what happens afterwards...that's why we keep coming back. Lose that and they might as well start numbering every issue #1...

Jim

dont give Quesada Ideas

[piper]

Kevin, I believe I've boiled down your points here... I'm an English guy though, so please feel free to correct my math!

 

 

"it's magic... we don't need to explain it" + lazy writing = One More Day

 

"it's magic... we don't need to explain it" + lazy writing X lack of respect for fanbase = Brand New Day

 

with a little Sting on Bass, Copeland on Drums....

[CDaBruce]

Joe Q wanted the marriage to end. I understand that Joe Q didn't want a spidey "divorce" to make the newspapers and shed a negative social light on Peter. So he has Mephisto seek the married couple out and MJ, not Peter, makes the Faustian deal with the devil. Presumably this saves articles about "Spidey makes a deal with the devil" (which of course would be worse than divorce.) Quesada puts the blame on MJ.

 

What I don't get is why not just have MJ leave Peter? Her rationalization could be that it is ultimately the best thing for Peter (or that Mephisto made her do it as part of the deal). This leaves Peter as the unlucky single guy that we are used to and there isn't an impossible continuity mess. If the marriage had to go..this way seems much simpler.

[Point Five]

What I don't get is why not just have MJ leave Peter?

Simple, right? Makes sense to me.

 

I honestly don't understand why there would be such a stigma about Spidey divorcing in the first place. Divorce is extremely common in this day & age, and without a doubt the younger audience that Marvel is supposedly trying to reach already knows all about it.

 

And if it were handled well (that's a big if), a "divorce issue special" might have racked up big sales from casual readers like myself, that would tune in out of curiosity and to witness another milestone in Peter Parker's life. Then ASM Annual #21 and ASM #545 would stand as bookends to each other, and the writers could legitimately start a new chapter from there.

 

Oh well, magic it is...

 

 

[awe4one]

It wasn't just about the divorce, separation, whatever...

 

JoeyQ evidently saw an opportunity to completely restart the character back to where he was in the mid-70s (I'm guessing it was his "Golden Age"). Just having MJ leave doesn't accomplish this...

 

If it was just about ending the relationship there are many different avenues they could have used. Hell, Galactus could have shown up and made her his new herald. This was clearly used as an excuse to throw out all the continuity he didn't like and place Spidey in JoeyQ's "glory days" for the character. Too bad it now looks like a glory hole...

 

Jim

[The Brain]

Here is one professionals take on all this.

 

 

 

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