Best idea ever ??? Clear backing boards !!! 1 1

[fantastic_four]

Your ad says that "many museums and conservationists" use Lexan for inert archival storage...where did you learn that from? I'm not disputing it, I'm just looking for references to back it up to make sure.

 

Shortly after CGC started we had the same questions about the Barex that the CGC inner well is made of...someone did a study of the Barex and found it to be of almost the same archival quality as Mylar.

[Sandflea]

If anyone here on this forum wants a free sample, just send me your address.

 

Will give it a try...PM sent

[casarachi]

Thanks for asking!

 

When I first jumped into this idea of a transparent backing board, I spoke with several companies to find the most appropriate "plastic". I wanted something with the same properties as MYLAR only rigid. (Dupont and GE comes to mind, specifically their top chemists.) Who informed me of the clients who used LEXAN for storage of documents in museums. Assuring me I had no worries that THIS plastic could do no harm and they directly compared LEXAN properties to MYLAR. I simply mentioned this to the Editors of CBM at that time and they produced/created the ad you see in CBM. I have had my own comics stored in CLEARS the past 15 or so years, when I removed some from their place(Clears w/mylar), the comics looked "fresh" as they did the day they were inserted.

 

The reason I released CLEARS at that time was, I went to my friendly neighborhood comic book store and showed the proprietor who assured me he would not divulge my idea to ANYONE. The next day he called me and said "Steve! I called (Diamond) and asked them if they had those Transparent Backing Boards and they didn't know anything about them! They want to talk to you". Needless to say, the cat was out of the bag, and so I made up a 1 page ad for CBM describing the product and released them. Within the next month I think we sold 30,000 of them.

 

Within the next months, I was hounded by several players who wanted to buy me out. I signed out with 5% interest, however no "royalties" ever arrived. Fortunately, my lawyer put a clause in the contract that the new owner would IN GOOD FAITH produce and sell CLEARS, however they never did. Thus, 5 years after, ownership was put back in my hands because they did not sell 1 unit, basically they never tried.

 

What I also found interesting was not a single place I advertised, ever did a review on the product. Why? However, at that time, I believe the following year, the PG omitted information in the guide on storage. (i expected them to put MORE information, not less) If CLEARS were bad for comics, I wanted to know. The last thing I would want to do is destroy a comic for any amount of monetary reward. I love comics, have been a fan since a child and there was no way I would put out a product that could damage what I loved most on this earth.

 

But yes, I grilled those scientist and they assured me I was "safe" because LEXAN was used in that "archival" capacity, just not with comics, yet. I wanted to know the effects after a time what LEXAN would have with cheap comic book paper, the inks etc, and was informed there would be NO EFFECT long term. LEXAN will yellow in direct sunlight over the years, but in the back of a comic, they won't ever see light. Also, this is VIRGIN LEXAN, without the added protection of ultra violet light, scratch resistant protection. Once you add those features, you add chemicals to the plastic, so that is the reason for VIRGIN, untreated LEXAN. CLEARS are NOT scratch resistant, and they DO NOT protect from Ultra Violet light.

 

There was a picture of an F14 fighter jet brought to my attention, which speculated the deterioration of the jet if it sat for a 1000 years, I believe created by GE. It showed the body of the jet completely rotted away, while the cockpit glass looked the same as the day it was made. Without any breakdown.

 

MYLAR does break down over time, (it get's brittle), and does contain plastisizers, not in sheet form, in bag form (when two sheets are heated to create a bond to make a bag), where-as LEXAN CLEARS, are never heated. (I did experiment and found in extreme heat, 300 degrees, LEXAN will warp, but found it not turn color. In fact, the books I took out of storage a couple years ago, the mylar was yellowed but the lexan looked like day 1. That, I believe is because of the plastisizers present in the mylar. So, yes, like those bags we all put our comics in, which we are told to replace every several years, the same must be done with mylar, only mylar lasts considerably longer. LEXAN is good for 100's, possibly 1000's of years and you should never need to replace them.

Edited June 27, 2012 by casarachi

[Dr. Balls]

I hope that no one is offended by a little advert, but I think I have the perfect product, already in hand.

 

It's the Ultra Pro Comic Stor Rigid Sleeves

They stopped making them, but I was able to get the remaining stock.

They have been selling like crazy for me.

It's clear on both sides, and is much thicker than a mylar.

It keeps a comic in nice shape, and does not need a backing board.

It has a flap, that seals the comic without tape by tongue-in-groove.

I only have them in Current size.

 

 

Here's a link if you want ordering information.

 

Link

 

These nasty little bsatards have been responsible for more destroyed comics than flood, fire and exacto knives.

 

Possibly the worst achival product ever invented...bar none.

 

+1

 

I actual bought these back in the day

 

Back in the mid-90's, I put my run of Wolverine in them - and 15-16 years later, the only real problem with them is that some of the corners have gotten brittle and cracked. They still look good and clear - but I still like having a firm board behind my books.

[Dr. Balls]

There was a picture of an F14 fighter jet brought to my attention, that sat for a 1000 years. It showed the body of the jet completely rotted away, while the cockpit glass looked the same as the day it was made.

 

Next thing you'll be telling us is that T-Rex's piloted jet fighters!

 

[casarachi]

****Back in the mid-90's, I put my run of Wolverine in them - and 15-16 years later, the only real problem with them is that some of the corners have gotten brittle and cracked. They still look good and clear - but I still like having a firm board behind my books.****

 

Did you use the product you are showing there? Those are NOT "CLEARS".

 

If those are lucite, lucite I believe does break down over time and will get brittle over time.

 

LUCITE and MYLAR cost about 1 to 2/10ths (in weight), what LEXAN costs. (at least back in 1998 that was the difference.).

 

At that time, when I inquired about MYLAR, (lucite was mentioned by the chemists and because it is also known as a a type of "plexiglass" which will break down eventually, I chose not to use it)

 

I did not choose the "cost effective" route when I chose LEXAN. The problem I was faced with was the high cost, but when you are storing a $500+ comic book, what's $2-3?

 

Believe me, when I took my comics out of storage, I was quite relieved to see all was well, it was my best R&D because only time will reveal our major concerns.

 

Oh, and to the person who asked about ARCHIVAL/Museums etc, the display cases you see, which priceless documents and items are placed and sit, are not on glass, nor acrylic, nor plexiglass, they are I believe made out of LEXAN. I think the mona lisa has bullet proof sized Lexan for protection as well. Granted the painting does not come into direct contact with the LEXAN but they use it a lot for various things in those settings. Basically, those chemists explained and assured me, Lexan will have considerably less effect than any other rigid plastic known to man.

[casarachi]

Hi, , I'm only here to let you all know, TRANSPARENT BACKING BOARDS do exist.

 

And I understand fully and appreciate the concerns for storing our valuable comics.

[casarachi]

Personally, I give credit to PEDRIN's FORTRESS, they are probably the best & safest still! They were my inspiration for CLEARS. The mylar used in the FORTRESS is SHEET, not BAG, therefore, no plastisizers are present in the mylar, making them the ULTIMATE STORAGE METHOD.(note how easily they scratch, but who cares) My only complaint is the price for an entire collection, (unless you own a small but elite collection), and it can be a pain if you quickly want to look at a book and put it back. I would use this method for any SUPER HIGH VALUE book I wanted to put away and forget about. Actually, he could improve them if he used scratch resistant and ultraviolet treated LEXAN for the outer shell.

 

What I like about CLEARS is, there is no border(so very attractive when multiple books are lined up or overlapped) and of course much less $ and much easier to remove.

 

One of my sales tactics at the shows I did was to have a NM HULK 181 or other nice book inside a mylar and PROPERLY SIZED CLEAR(which had bonded via the friction mentioned previously), and toss it up in the air and watch it drop to the ground. Everyone was SHOCKED. ((((DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!)))) I was just trying to make a point. The worst that happened (to me) was the mylar would bend & or crack a bit at the corner when it hit the ground. So it would need to be replaced, but the book was fine.

Edited June 27, 2012 by casarachi

[VintageComics]

I think an important thing to remember is that the breakdown in newsprint comics happens from within the newsprint.

 

That is why no matter no matter which storage method you use, it's important to use some sort of alkalyne buffer to slow down the decomposition process.

 

This is where good quality backing boards, deacidification treatments on the bare pages or just the interleaving pages really make a difference.

 

 

[mschmidt]

MYLAR does break down over time, (it get's brittle), and does contain plastisizers, not in sheet form, in bag form (when two sheets are heated to create a bond to make a bag), where-as LEXAN CLEARS, are never heated. (I did experiment and found in extreme heat, 300 degrees, LEXAN will warp, but found it not turn color. In fact, the books I took out of storage a couple years ago, the mylar was yellowed but the lexan looked like day 1. That, I believe is because of the plastisizers present in the mylar. So, yes, like those bags we all put our comics in, which we are told to replace every several years, the same must be done with mylar, only mylar lasts considerably longer. LEXAN is good for 100's, possibly 1000's of years and you should never need to replace them.

 

I wasn't going to jump in here, but this is getting silly.

 

You're confusing mylar with polypropylene/polyethylene.

 

Mylar (which is a brand name for polyester film) does not contain any plasticizers (even in comic book bag form), does not yellow with age and will take 100s of years to break down.

 

Lexan (which is a brand name for polycarbonate), however, will break down when subjected to high temperature and high humidity, and as part of this break down process the polymer can become plasticized, which further hastens the degradation. It will yellow over time and is not suitable for long term archival storage which is why manufacturers of CDs and DVDs don't warrant their discs past a decade or so (all of those use a polycarbonate substrate in their manufacture).

[fantastic_four]

Oh, and to the person who asked about ARCHIVAL/Museums etc, the display cases you see, which priceless documents and items are placed and sit, are not on glass, nor acrylic, nor plexiglass, they are I believe made out of LEXAN. I think the mona lisa has bullet proof sized Lexan for protection as well. Granted the painting does not come into direct contact with the LEXAN but they use it a lot for various things in those settings. Basically, those chemists explained and assured me, Lexan will have considerably less effect than any other rigid plastic known to man.

 

THANKS, I appreciate all the info! (thumbs u

 

I can't entirely trust the word of the scientists alone you were referring to who work for DuPont and GE--they're biased because they sell the product. What I usually can trust is an independent third party, particularly a museum or library. Mylar is trusted because the Library of Congress ran tests a long time ago--I think the 1950s--and determined that Mylar didn't start to break down and release acid for a bit over 100 years. The material CGC used for their well, Barex, had no such independent tests run on it, so a non-profit hobby organization--I think one of the CBCA's predecessors, I forget who sponsored it--had an indepedent assessment run on the material. If memory serves, Tracey Heft ran the experiments in a similar way to the ones were run on Mylar by the LoC, and he published the results either in CBG or CBM. We discussed it around here when he ran the study, and Tracey himself posted about the results in the restoration forums here about a decade ago--I think it was 2003 but I could be off by a year.

 

I just did a search on the LoC web site on the term "Lexan" and only found one reference to it where they recommended it interchangeably with Lucite and Plexiglas for framing art as the layer of plastic that comes in direct contact with the art, so that's a decent indicator of its quality. Do you recall where you heard Lexan becomes acidic more slowly than Lucite, or where you heard that the Mona Lisa is encased in Lexan? I'm not sure I understand why you're asserting that unlike Mylar, Lexan never needs to be changed out. What makes you think Lexan breaks down more slowly than Mylar? The LoC found that Mylar without plasticizers breaks down in just over 100 years--where did you hear Lexan breaks down more slowly? The anecdote you gave about jet fighters being made from Lexan not deteriorating for 1000 years is interesting, but it doesn't really go towards establishing its archival durability relative to Mylar--I'm sure the Lexan in those jet fighters will start releasing acids long before they become brittle enough to break after ~1000 years.

 

Oh, and by the way--I'm not grilling you just to be a . I'm a bit of a conservationist geek and I think your idea for Clears is a great one--I've posted here several times over the last decade wishing there was a product like yours on the market, and I'm glad to see you created it and impressed by what I've heard so far regarding the approach you've taken to create the product.

[fantastic_four]

I think an important thing to remember is that the breakdown in newsprint comics happens from within the newsprint.

 

That is why no matter no matter which storage method you use, it's important to use some sort of alkalyne buffer to slow down the decomposition process.

 

This is where good quality backing boards, deacidification treatments on the bare pages or just the interleaving pages really make a difference.

 

 

The fact that a clear backing board won't absorb acid off-gassing from the comic is definitely a concern and a slight disadvantage of clear backing boards. However, I doubt there's any way to create a great-presenting clear backing board that could fill that role, and as you suggested, there are other ways to absorb acid released from the comic if you prefer the superior presentation of a clear board. Microchamber paper interleaved within interior pages seems like the ideal substitute if you're not going to use an inert, buffered board such as those sold by E. Gerber or Bill Cole that you have to change every decade or two.

[fantastic_four]

Mylar (which is a brand name for polyester film) does not contain any plasticizers (even in comic book bag form), does not yellow with age and will take 100s of years to break down.

 

The Mylar itself doesn't contain plasticizers, but I thought he was referring to the acidity of the material used to seal the two Mylar sheets together.

 

 

Lexan (which is a brand name for polycarbonate), however, will break down when subjected to high temperature and high humidity, and as part of this break down process the polymer can become plasticized, which further hastens the degradation. It will yellow over time and is not suitable for long term archival storage which is why manufacturers of CDs and DVDs don't warrant their discs past a decade or so (all of those use a polycarbonate substrate in their manufacture).

 

I'm not disputing this, but do you recall where you heard it?

[VintageComics]

I think an important thing to remember is that the breakdown in newsprint comics happens from within the newsprint.

 

That is why no matter no matter which storage method you use, it's important to use some sort of alkalyne buffer to slow down the decomposition process.

 

This is where good quality backing boards, deacidification treatments on the bare pages or just the interleaving pages really make a difference.

 

 

The fact that a clear backing board won't absorb acid off-gassing from the comic is definitely a concern and a slight disadvantage of clear backing boards. However, I doubt there's any way to create a great-presenting clear backing board that could fill that role, and as you suggested, there are other ways to absorb acid released from the comic if you prefer the superior presentation of a clear board. Microchamber paper interleaved within interior pages seems like the ideal substitute if you're not going to use an inert, buffered board such as those sold by E. Gerber or Bill Cole that you have to change every decade or two.

 

Many people have never heard of deacidification but it also is a very viable alternative.

 

It basically consists of spraying paper with a deacidification spray which if I am not mistaken is just chalk - a very calcium rich and therefore alkaline substance.

 

It sounds horrific but it's actually a recommended way to preserve paper when trying to prevent breakdown because of acidification of paper.

 

[fantastic_four]

Many people have never heard of deacidification but it also is a very viable alternative.

 

It basically consists of spraying paper with a deacidification spray which if I am not mistaken is just chalk - a very calcium rich and therefore alkaline substance.

 

It sounds horrific but it's actually a recommended way to preserve paper when trying to prevent breakdown because of acidification of paper.

 

What's the cost? Does it take expertise to do, or can anyone buy the spray and apply it assuming they're moderately careful?

[chrisco37]

Oh, and to the person who asked about ARCHIVAL/Museums etc, the display cases you see, which priceless documents and items are placed and sit, are not on glass, nor acrylic, nor plexiglass, they are I believe made out of LEXAN. I think the mona lisa has bullet proof sized Lexan for protection as well. Granted the painting does not come into direct contact with the LEXAN but they use it a lot for various things in those settings. Basically, those chemists explained and assured me, Lexan will have considerably less effect than any other rigid plastic known to man.

 

THANKS, I appreciate all the info! (thumbs u

 

I can't entirely trust the word of the scientists alone you were referring to who work for DuPont and GE--they're biased because they sell the product. What I usually can trust is an independent third party, particularly a museum or library. Mylar is trusted because the Library of Congress ran tests a long time ago--I think the 1950s--and determined that Mylar didn't start to break down and release acid for a bit over 100 years. The material CGC used for their well, Barex, had no such independent tests run on it, so a non-profit hobby organization--I think one of the CBCA's predecessors, I forget who sponsored it--had an indepedent assessment run on the material. If memory serves, Tracey Heft ran the experiments in a similar way to the ones were run on Mylar by the LoC, and he published the results either in CBG or CBM. We discussed it around here when he ran the study, and Tracey himself posted about the results in the restoration forums here about a decade ago--I think it was 2003 but I could be off by a year.

 

I just did a search on the LoC web site on the term "Lexan" and only found one reference to it where they recommended it interchangeably with Lucite and Plexiglas for framing art as the layer of plastic that comes in direct contact with the art, so that's a decent indicator of its quality. Do you recall where you heard Lexan becomes acidic more slowly than Lucite, or where you heard that the Mona Lisa is encased in Lexan? I'm not sure I understand why you're asserting that unlike Mylar, Lexan never needs to be changed out. What makes you think Lexan breaks down more slowly than Mylar? The LoC found that Mylar without plasticizers breaks down in just over 100 years--where did you hear Lexan breaks down more slowly? The anecdote you gave about jet fighters being made from Lexan not deteriorating for 1000 years is interesting, but it doesn't really go towards establishing its archival durability relative to Mylar--I'm sure the Lexan in those jet fighters will start releasing acids long before they become brittle enough to break after ~1000 years.

 

Oh, and by the way--I'm not grilling you just to be a . I'm a bit of a conservationist geek and I think your idea for Clears is a great one--I've posted here several times over the last decade wishing there was a product like yours on the market, and I'm glad to see you created it and impressed by what I've heard so far regarding the approach you've taken to create the product.

 

Understatement of the year!!!

[casarachi]

HI, I was told by GE chemist that "Plastisizers are introduced when two plastics are heated which is needed to create the bond". Such as is required to make a bag. That being said, I believe you may be correct that if LEXAN was heated at high temps, it could be in fact plasticized. That makes perfect sense but who would subject their comics to heat to begin with. Storage rule 101 is to keep your comics in a COOL/DRY place.

 

I have mylar bags that have in fact yellowed and have cracked at the corners, thus tells me they became brittle.

 

From my own experience, and I have asked this to various top dealers over the years who purchased CLEARS, because I want to know for my own books safety. "Have CLEARS damaged or deteriorated any of your comics over the years?" The answer is, so far, "no".

 

Has anyone else ever noticed their mylar turning color or cracked at the corners? I can't be the only one who's experience this. And I'm not knocking mylar, I like mylar bags but do find myself replacing them. There's nothing like a new mylar bag. Unfortunately, mylar is not appropriate for a backing board.

 

What plastic, in your opinion, works best as a backing board?

 

I appreciate your posting.

[fantastic_four]

I'm a bit of a conservationist geek

 

Understatement of the year!!!

 

I suppose I actually meant "nerd"--I'm no geek, I'm actually quite suave and coordinated. Don't make me come to your house and dunk on you in your driveway.

[fantastic_four]

I have mylar bags that have in fact yellowed and have cracked at the corners, thus tells me they became brittle.

 

Has anyone else experienced this? I can't say that I have, although that's not indicative of anything--different bag manufacturers may use different processes to seal the Mylar together. I do vaguely recall that the tests the Library of Congress ran on Mylar were on bags that were sealed on the sides because they ran multiple tests on bags sealed on variable numbers of sides--the tests were with Mylars sealed on four sides, three sides, two sides, one side, and none at all, i.e. paper sandwiched between two loose sheets of Mylar.

[mschmidt]

Mylar (which is a brand name for polyester film) does not contain any plasticizers (even in comic book bag form), does not yellow with age and will take 100s of years to break down.

 

The Mylar itself doesn't contain plasticizers, but I thought he was referring to the acidity of the material used to seal the two Mylar sheets together.

From what I know no new material is introduced when you're making the bag from an extruded mylar film - the edges are heat-sealed, and as the mylar is uncoated, no plasticizers are introduced during that process.

 

 

Lexan (which is a brand name for polycarbonate), however, will break down when subjected to high temperature and high humidity, and as part of this break down process the polymer can become plasticized, which further hastens the degradation. It will yellow over time and is not suitable for long term archival storage which is why manufacturers of CDs and DVDs don't warrant their discs past a decade or so (all of those use a polycarbonate substrate in their manufacture).

 

I'm not disputing this, but do you recall where you heard it?

I don't remember specifically where I found this info, but this article does talk about the degradation of polycarbonate:

 

Accelerated Aging Studies and the Prediction of the Archival Lifetime of Optical Disk Media

 

One thing that Lexan has going for it is that it's cheap, though.