fallen GA Keys of yesteryear........ 2 2

[MrBedrock]

1) Were you surprised at the jump that OS did when he bumped the book from $2,100 all the way to $8,500 (or 305%) in one fell swoop, especially considering OS's normal conservative pricing history?

Absolutely surprised. It was a fairly unprecedented jump at the time. Understand, though, that the discussions about that book in particular were in hindsight, and brought up as a cautionary tale against agressive price increases.

 

2) At the time, did you think this price increase in the guide was a mistake on Overstreet's part or fully justified? Knowing what you know now, do you think this was a mistake looking backwards at its impact on the book?

I don't think the increase was necessarily a mistake. It was reflective of actual sales. I have gotten the impression (and this is purely my opinion) that Bob felt pressured to implement price increases larger than what he felt comfortable with. Seeing the results after doing so, he has stuck to his instincts with all subsequent instances where a large price increase would seem justified but doesn't occur.

Hindsight is always 20/20, but I still don't think it was a mistake at the time. The guide was reflecting what was happening in the marketplace. Bob's overriding concern has always been to not put the hobby in a state of flux by having prices go up and down. But prices do go up and down.

 

3) Considering that this book is now priced at $17,500 top guide, do you think the price would be higher (or much more in demand) if OS had applied a more standard pricing approach to this book at the time (remembering that collectors like to chase after perceived "undervalued" books and avoid perceived "overvalued" or "fully valued" books.

No. Like most books, it has found its level based on what folks are willing to pay. If this weren't so then the tail would be wagging the dog. I do feel that the guide at one time was a tremendous influence on pricing. But with the auction atmosphere that is driving the market, the guide doesn't have the influence on pricing that it once did.

 

4) If this meteoric price increae of 305% in one year was what killed the book, why did it not have the same impact on the only other book in Overstreet's Top 100 to experience the same kind of price increase......namely the Suspense #3. This book went from $2,000 up to $8,000 or 300% in the same year, and is now sitting at $30K in top guide and still able to sell for multiples to guide?

That is a great question. My only guess would be that other factors than perceived value have influenced the Suspense 3 (rarity and cover appeal being the foremost two that come to mind). Plus, the one constantly increasing segment of the golden age market over this time period ('90 - present) has been Timelys and Suspense 3 has a tremendous appeal in that area.

 

5) I assume the answer to #4 above would be due to the collector's mentality to chase after classic covers. Certainly can't be about scarcity since Suspense #3 has a total of 9 graded unrestored copies while MM#1 has only 4 graded unrestored copies with the top one at only a 6.5 condition. Any guesses as to what a HG unrestored copy say in the 9.0+ range would bring in today's cooler market for this book?

Point of reference.....a couple of other books that also took huge prices increases in that same year. Namely, Exciting Comics #9 which went from $1,100 up to $5,000 for a 355% increase; and Terrific Comics #5 from $700 up to $3,200 or an increase of 357%. Interesting to note that these huge increases did not slow the pace for these two books relative to MM#1, with Exciting #9 now sitting at $16,500 and Terrific #5 at $9,500.

Well you can see that I am answering as I am reading.. . I have been told the Allentown MM#1 (which I am sure is very nice) was available for double 9.2 guide but has had no takers.

 

 

6) Looking at the Exciting #9, it brings up another interesting question! Wasn't Exciting #9 and Startling Comics #10 thought to be companion books at one point in time as they both featured first appearances of Black Terror and Fighting Yank respectively? What was the thinking in the room at the time that resulted in the Exciting going from $1,100 up to $5,000 while the Startling went from $1,100 up to only $2,000? That's a hugh disparity that still exist today with one sitting at $16,500 while the other continues to languish at only $6,400, especially when many consider the Startling to actually be a tougher book to find (I believe the highest graded copy is only a 5.5).

Honestly, when the advisors used to get together there was very little discussion about particular books. Things were discussed more in terms of genres and generalized sales trends. Specific pricing was Bob's decision alone. That being said, I completely understand the disparity between Exciting 9 and Startling 10. While you and I may love him, The Fighting Yank is kind of a lame character. In the last two years I sold the Pennsylvania FY #1 (8.5) for less than guide and bought the Mile High copy for less than 1.5X guide. If the equivalent Black Terror #1s were available, they would sell for substantially more.

 

Now I can post a pretty picture...

[adamstrange]

Pretty pictures

[lou_fine]

Richard;

 

Greatly appreciate your insightful answers to all of my above questions! (thumbs u

 

It's always good to hear what goes on inside some of these closed door meetings. It's also good to get the inside scoop from experienced dealers on particular books in the marketplace.

 

Thanks again; (thumbs u

 

Lou

[Aman619]

hey, dont ;ook now, but Fighting Yank is back, starring in The Twelve. A dozen forgotten Timely heroes were frozen by the Nazis and just woke up Pretty interesting so far.

[MrBedrock]

My pleasure, Lou. (thumbs u

One thing I have always wondered is why Timelys continue to appreciate year-in and year-out, inspite of large price increases in guide and a seemingly adequate supply. I love 'em, but I can't believe how they keep blasting along.

[batman_fan]

There are some books that I just can't see ever coming back. Early Famous Funnies come to mind. The books are scarse, but the covers are well, sort of lame. The Frazetta cover's will always be in demand because, well, it's Frazetta. Same is true for Lou Fine covers. But Captain Marvel, sorry, I just don't see it coming back in style. I do look at the current prices of Key books and wonder how fast collector like myself will be priced out of the market. Take Detective 31 for example. Key book with one of the all time clasic covers but a 4.5 unrestored is probably in the 18k+ range. That's a lot of money folks.

[Crowzilla]

 

Great post Rich and I'll try to fill in a little more with my thimble-full of insight/opinions.

 

1) Were you surprised at the jump that OS did when he bumped the book from $2,100 all the way to $8,500 (or 305%) in one fell swoop, especially considering OS's normal conservative pricing history?

I think pretty much everyone was surprised by this at the time and know several other dealers were shocked that there would be such a price increase in any given year.

 

2) At the time, did you think this price increase in the guide was a mistake on Overstreet's part or fully justified? Knowing what you know now, do you think this was a mistake looking backwards at its impact on the book?

 

I agree with Rich that Bob was feeling a lot of pressure to make some changes that were greater than he felt comfortable with. At the time I was very close with Jon Warren who had been running the update, and Jon was much more aggressive in his pricing of Silver Age books (probably thanks to people like Keith C., Jay M., and myself) and Jon constantly complained of how he bumped heads with Bob with the increases he did/wanted to do. Bob was constantly reminding Jon that the annual guide was the crown jewel/cash cow, and that nothing should take away from that focus (But Wizard was doing a good enough job of that on it's own).

So I think for that first Golden Age update Bob really wanted to have a few dramatic things happen to create a sense of urgency with the book and for people to purchase it. (Who's going to buy a GA Update at a high price point if nothing goes up and the regular guide was only a few months away regardless?) That update was really Bob's baby, and I think he saw it as a way to shift focus from the red-hot SA market back to something under his control - and the GA market was certainly hot at the time and ready for a book like that.

 

But absolutely the prices were based on actual sales and not just pulled out of thin air.

Was it a mistake? I don't know, but with the even-handed approach and stability Bob brought to the hobby I think he's entitled to a mistake or two.

I agree with Mark Wilson's suggestion that probably the biggest mistake made around that time was when Bob redid the price spreads (from 1-3-6 to 1-4-8 or whatever it was) that instead of increasing NM prices to be 8x the Good, he reduced Good to be 1/8 of NM, wiping out millions of dollars in "value" of collections worldwide. Much better to increase the NM price to the 8x, which would have been closer to reality, and leave Good stagnant and allow prices to catch up.

 

3) Considering that this book is now priced at $17,500 top guide, do you think the price would be higher (or much more in demand) if OS had applied a more standard pricing approach to this book at the time (remembering that collectors like to chase after perceived "undervalued" books and avoid perceived "overvalued" or "fully valued" books.

 

Again Rich is a wise man. Lower prices of course increase demand, but the guide isn't the driving force in prices like it once was.

 

4) If this meteoric price increae of 305% in one year was what killed the book, why did it not have the same impact on the only other book in Overstreet's Top 100 to experience the same kind of price increase......namely the Suspense #3. This book went from $2,000 up to $8,000 or 300% in the same year, and is now sitting at $30K in top guide and still able to sell for multiples to guide?

 

Even with the jump in price that Suspense #3 took, it was still priced well below market. In '95 I had an a copy at SD that was maybe a F/GD and missing the life-raft story, yet I still had dealers offering me over NM guide for it. It's Schomburg, a Gerber 9 (whether that is reality or not), a more eye-catching cover than MM#1, so I can see the continued appeal.

 

5) I assume the answer to #4 above would be due to the collector's mentality to chase after classic covers. Certainly can't be about scarcity since Suspense #3 has a total of 9 graded unrestored copies while MM#1 has only 4 graded unrestored copies with the top one at only a 6.5 condition. Any guesses as to what a HG unrestored copy say in the 9.0+ range would bring in today's cooler market for this book?

Point of reference.....a couple of other books that also took huge prices increases in that same year. Namely, Exciting Comics #9 which went from $1,100 up to $5,000 for a 355% increase; and Terrific Comics #5 from $700 up to $3,200 or an increase of 357%. Interesting to note that these huge increases did not slow the pace for these two books relative to MM#1, with Exciting #9 now sitting at $16,500 and Terrific #5 at $9,500.

 

Terrific #5 was/is seen as a poor man's Suspense #3 and Exciting #9 is a darn cool book - certainly much cooler than Startling #10. I can see why the demand exists for those two and believe the Exciting will keep putting the Startling in it's rear view mirror.

 

 

[VintageComics]

.... But Captain Marvel, sorry, I just don't see it coming back in style...

 

I wonder....markets change, trends change....is there any chance of bringing him back? I remember reading that modern mini series...what was it called...where the old man was quoting the book of revalation and Captain Marvel was possessed and became a bad guy for a while...any way he was marketed as a bit darker, a bit badder and a whole lot stronger than I thought was possible. In short, I thought they did a great job re-inventing him. I think with little bit of effort there would be a chance...just a thought.

 

 

R.

 

 

[batman_fan]

.... But Captain Marvel, sorry, I just don't see it coming back in style...

 

I wonder....markets change, trends change....is there any chance of bringing him back? I remember reading that modern mini series...what was it called...where the old man was quoting the book of revalation and Captain Marvel was possessed and became a bad guy for a while...any way he was marketed as a bit darker, a bit badder and a whole lot stronger than I thought was possible. In short, I thought they did a great job re-inventing him. I think with little bit of effort there would be a chance...just a thought.

 

 

R.

 

I think it would be very hard. The old time fans may not like it because they like the old Captain Marvel and the new fans may think the old stories are lame. I do think the Captain Marvel titles had some of the coolest covers myself.

[adamstrange]

.... But Captain Marvel, sorry, I just don't see it coming back in style...

 

I wonder....markets change, trends change....is there any chance of bringing him back? I remember reading that modern mini series...what was it called...where the old man was quoting the book of revalation and Captain Marvel was possessed and became a bad guy for a while...any way he was marketed as a bit darker, a bit badder and a whole lot stronger than I thought was possible. In short, I thought they did a great job re-inventing him. I think with little bit of effort there would be a chance...just a thought.

 

 

R.

 

I think it would be very hard. The old time fans may not like it because they like the old Captain Marvel and the new fans may think the old stories are lame. I do think the Captain Marvel titles had some of the coolest covers myself.

 

I've enjoyed some of the revival work by Jerry Ordway but I think you have to re-envision the character to make him work. I actually think that happened, though not intentionally, with Scott McCloud's "Zot". McCloud had never read Capt Marvel but captured the spirit of the original down to a red uniform with a lightning bolt on the chest.

[skypinkblu]

I didn't see that anyone has mentioned All-Star #8. I realize that #3 has a large price tag affixed to it, but the 1st appearance of Wonder Woman makes that book the one that I would love to have. It doesn't seem to get a whole lot a hype compared to other early hero books.

 

I have a feeling that she was more popular back then than she is now, although I am sure she has a cult following now-a-days.

 

Cult following is putting it lightly. Wonder Woman fans are wild...and there are a lot of them. Many of the books CANNOT be found in better than 5.0, especially the Sensations and some cannot be found at all. Try finding a Wonder Woman 6, or a Sensation 6. I have people writing to me, asking if I have doubles of any of the books.

 

It took me about 3 years to find a copy of Wonder Woman #6, and I had lots of people looking...and I was willing to pay 3x guide (which I did)

 

BTW, I still think the guide is just a Guide...and perhaps some of the books are overguided, especially All Stars...so...if any of you have some dreadful, boring, extra All Stars, at a reasonable portion of guide...I'll be happy to take a few off your hands...

[pennynike1]

Cult following is putting it lightly. Wonder Woman fans are wild...and there are a lot of them. Many of the books CANNOT be found in better than 5.0, especially the Sensations and some cannot be found at all. Try finding a Wonder Woman 6, or a Sensation 6. I have people writing to me, asking if I have doubles of any of the books.

 

It took me about 3 years to find a copy of Wonder Woman #6, and I had lots of people looking...and I was willing to pay 3x guide (which I did)

 

BTW, I still think the guide is just a Guide...and perhaps some of the books are overguided, especially All Stars...so...if any of you have some dreadful, boring, extra All Stars, at a reasonable portion of guide...I'll be happy to take a few off your hands...

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Wonder Woman. I didn't realize she was that popular, but I am glad to hear it. I have always had a fondness for her character, and the cover of All-Star #8 is quite good IMO (although she is not pictured). How rare would you say All Star #8 is? I see 45 on the census. Wonder Woman #1? I see there are 45 on the census, but not sure how many raw. Sensation #1? 28 on the census.

 

Thx for sharing

[skypinkblu]

Cult following is putting it lightly. Wonder Woman fans are wild...and there are a lot of them. Many of the books CANNOT be found in better than 5.0, especially the Sensations and some cannot be found at all. Try finding a Wonder Woman 6, or a Sensation 6. I have people writing to me, asking if I have doubles of any of the books.

 

It took me about 3 years to find a copy of Wonder Woman #6, and I had lots of people looking...and I was willing to pay 3x guide (which I did)

 

BTW, I still think the guide is just a Guide...and perhaps some of the books are overguided, especially All Stars...so...if any of you have some dreadful, boring, extra All Stars, at a reasonable portion of guide...I'll be happy to take a few off your hands...

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Wonder Woman. I didn't realize she was that popular, but I am glad to hear it. I have always had a fondness for her character, and the cover of All-Star #8 is quite good IMO (although she is not pictured). How rare would you say All Star #8 is? I see 45 on the census. Wonder Woman #1? I see there are 45 on the census, but not sure how many raw. Sensation #1? 28 on the census.

 

Thx for sharing

 

All Star 8, Wonder Woman #1 and Sensation 1, are relatively easy to find next to some of the others. There is a Wonder Woman thread in Gold, some good information there:) The later Sensations are hard, Wonder Woman 7 (she runs for President) ...try finding some, you'll have fun... and read the thread:)

[pennynike1]

Will do, thanks

[innocuous]

Buck Rogers is another character that has fallen by the wayside. Once the phase "That Buck Rogers stuff" was the way most people referred to SF. Now the character hasn't had any popular exposure since the Gil Gerard show nearly thirty years ago.

:thumbsup:

 

The Frazetta covers are the only BR comics that are rising.

[rjpb]

My pleasure, Lou. (thumbs u

One thing I have always wondered is why Timelys continue to appreciate year-in and year-out, inspite of large price increases in guide and a seemingly adequate supply. I love 'em, but I can't believe how they keep blasting along.

 

Great covers and a part of Marvel history are reasons enough, not to mention an adequate supply, but not an over supply. I'm not entirely sure, but lower grade Timely books seem to have kept up with inflation over the last decade or so, but in most cases not really outstripped it. Compared to some titles that have stagnated at the low end of guide, that's good, but not surprising. When you think about where the prices of Schomburg Nedors and MLJ war covers have gone in the last decade, Timely's don't look as expensive as they used to by comparison.

[Socratic Wonder]

Cult following is putting it lightly. Wonder Woman fans are wild...and there are a lot of them. Many of the books CANNOT be found in better than 5.0, especially the Sensations and some cannot be found at all. Try finding a Wonder Woman 6, or a Sensation 6. I have people writing to me, asking if I have doubles of any of the books.

 

It took me about 3 years to find a copy of Wonder Woman #6, and I had lots of people looking...and I was willing to pay 3x guide (which I did)

 

BTW, I still think the guide is just a Guide...and perhaps some of the books are overguided, especially All Stars...so...if any of you have some dreadful, boring, extra All Stars, at a reasonable portion of guide...I'll be happy to take a few off your hands...

 

Thanks for sharing your knowledge on Wonder Woman. I didn't realize she was that popular, but I am glad to hear it. I have always had a fondness for her character, and the cover of All-Star #8 is quite good IMO (although she is not pictured). How rare would you say All Star #8 is? I see 45 on the census. Wonder Woman #1? I see there are 45 on the census, but not sure how many raw. Sensation #1? 28 on the census.

 

Thx for sharing

 

All Star 8, Wonder Woman #1 and Sensation 1, are relatively easy to find next to some of the others. There is a Wonder Woman thread in Gold, some good information there:) The later Sensations are hard, Wonder Woman 7 (she runs for President) ...try finding some, you'll have fun... and read the thread:)

 

Spot on Sharon......spot on (thumbs u

[bobpfef]

Animal Comics #1 (First Pogo) used to be a top 100 Overstreet book. It is now so cheap *I* can even afford one.

[143ksk]

Animal Comics #1 (First Pogo) used to be a top 100 Overstreet book. It is now so cheap *I* can even afford one.

 

Yeah, but I gave you a deal on it

[Crowzilla]

Animal Comics #1 (First Pogo) used to be a top 100 Overstreet book. It is now so cheap *I* can even afford one.

 

Ohh, great one - In Overstreet #9 that book guided for as much as Detective #31.