TTA 59 9.6 sells for 10K

[Monstro]

Hoo boy, you're asking the wrong guy that particular question. I'm definitely one of those who feel that any high grade collectors who improve their books artificially is cheating, and it pretty much undermines the whole reason for collecting high grade. Like I've said before, if all they want is a brand new looking book, no matter how it gets that way, why bother with half measures like pressing and restoration, when they could just go all the way and just create a really nice glossy xerox cover and slap it onto a coverless copy? Obviously there are often more sinister or financially-driven motives at work.

 

 

could not be said any better

[VintageComics]

Hoo boy, you're asking the wrong guy that particular question. I'm definitely one of those who feel that any high grade collectors who improve their books artificially is cheating, and it pretty much undermines the whole reason for collecting high grade. Like I've said before, if all they want is a brand new looking book, no matter how it gets that way, why bother with half measures like pressing and restoration, when they could just go all the way and just create a really nice glossy xerox cover and slap it onto a coverless copy? Obviously there are often more sinister or financially-driven motives at work.

 

 

could not be said any better

 

We know.

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

And while we’re talking about labels, if the collector is motivated to find the best copies, why is he artificially creating them by pressing? Isn’t the thrill of the hunt, and the beauty of a high grade book the fact that 98% of the existing copies of any given SA book haven’t survived the last 40 years in decent shape, thereby making pristine copies a truly incredible thing? So why isn’t a 40 year old book that is pristine enough to garner a 9.4 not good enough? Why are hg collectors taking a pristine book and squeezing the life out of it in order to get a 9.6? Because they “love” the book? Give me a break.

Hoo boy, you're asking the wrong guy that particular question. I'm definitely one of those who feel that any high grade collectors who improve their books artificially is cheating, and it pretty much undermines the whole reason for collecting high grade. Like I've said before, if all they want is a brand new looking book, no matter how it gets that way, why bother with half measures like pressing and restoration, when they could just go all the way and just create a really nice glossy xerox cover and slap it onto a coverless copy? Obviously there are often more sinister or financially-driven motives at work.

 

There's definitely no doubt that some high grade collectors have lost sight of their reason for collecting. Whether it's competition, desire for adulation, or simple collecting compulson, it's no longer enough in their mind to have a super nice looking book, it must be a super nice looking book AND be confirmed by CGC as meeting a minimum grade, and they'll do whatever it takes to get the right confirmation from CGC.

 

Dagnammit Tim

 

How are we supposed to engage in a flame war if you make posts that I agree with?

[Bronty]

[Aman619]

Batman #1 > Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

without reading the whole thread, you know this is a false comparison, right?

 

the true comparison here is

is a low grade copy of Batman #1 thats worth 10K now > a 9.6 copy of Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

to me, OF COURSE Batman#1 is a heckuva lot better book than TTA59. duh

EVen the buyer would agree.

But gun to my head? in this case Id take the 9.6 TTA59.

and not cause I already have a Bat1. not entirely anyway. Its the low grade vs highest grade that makes the difference to me in this equation.

[Bronty]

well based on history it will go up more, if that's where you're driving at. My whole point earlier was can this be sustained? I know history has seen nothing but exponential rises in books like this - but that does not placate me, in fact I view it as cause for concern. Doesn't the rubber have to hit the road somewhere and prices start to make a bit more logical sense? Maybe not. Maybe label chasing and ego will just keep fuelling these price increases. but as somebody who doesn't buy into that, it makes for quite a spectacle

[greggy]

So...let's add some fuel to the fire.

 

Who's the dork forum member who purchased this book?

 

Last time you made a comment like that, a flame war erupted

And I had lots of fun with that one.

[DrWatson]

Batman #1 > Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

without reading the whole thread, you know this is a false comparison, right?

 

the true comparison here is

is a low grade copy of Batman #1 thats worth 10K now > a 9.6 copy of Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

to me, OF COURSE Batman#1 is a heckuva lot better book than TTA59. duh

EVen the buyer would agree.

But gun to my head? in this case Id take the 9.6 TTA59.

and not cause I already have a Bat1. not entirely anyway. Its the low grade vs highest grade that makes the difference to me in this equation.

You are too analytical.

 

But, you do have a copy of Batman #1. Do you have a copy of TTA 59?

[COI]

And while we’re talking about labels, if the collector is motivated to find the best copies, why is he artificially creating them by pressing? Isn’t the thrill of the hunt, and the beauty of a high grade book the fact that 98% of the existing copies of any given SA book haven’t survived the last 40 years in decent shape, thereby making pristine copies a truly incredible thing? So why isn’t a 40 year old book that is pristine enough to garner a 9.4 not good enough? Why are hg collectors taking a pristine book and squeezing the life out of it in order to get a 9.6? Because they “love” the book? Give me a break.

Hoo boy, you're asking the wrong guy that particular question. I'm definitely one of those who feel that any high grade collectors who improve their books artificially is cheating, and it pretty much undermines the whole reason for collecting high grade. Like I've said before, if all they want is a brand new looking book, no matter how it gets that way, why bother with half measures like pressing and restoration, when they could just go all the way and just create a really nice glossy xerox cover and slap it onto a coverless copy? Obviously there are often more sinister or financially-driven motives at work.

 

There's definitely no doubt that some high grade collectors have lost sight of their reason for collecting. Whether it's competition, desire for adulation, or simple collecting compulson, it's no longer enough in their mind to have a super nice looking book, it must be a super nice looking book AND be confirmed by CGC as meeting a minimum grade, and they'll do whatever it takes to get the right confirmation from CGC.

 

I don't think we're as far apart on this as you may have initially thought. (thumbs u

 

 

[Aman619]

Batman #1 > Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

without reading the whole thread, you know this is a false comparison, right?

 

the true comparison here is

is a low grade copy of Batman #1 thats worth 10K now > a 9.6 copy of Tales To Astonish #59

 

 

to me, OF COURSE Batman#1 is a heckuva lot better book than TTA59. duh

EVen the buyer would agree.

But gun to my head? in this case Id take the 9.6 TTA59.

and not cause I already have a Bat1. not entirely anyway. Its the low grade vs highest grade that makes the difference to me in this equation.

You are too analytical.

 

But, you do have a copy of Batman #1. Do you have a copy of TTA 59?

 

of course I do. In fact three copies. Doesnt everybody? : )

I used to have two more copies that I traded out.

But I dont have a 9.6, or a 9.4 or even better than a VF+.

truthfully, TTA is just not one of my must have HG runs.

[Aman619]

well based on history it will go up more, if that's where you're driving at. My whole point earlier was can this be sustained? I know history has seen nothing but exponential rises in books like this - but that does not placate me, in fact I view it as cause for concern. Doesn't the rubber have to hit the road somewhere and prices start to make a bit more logical sense? Maybe not. Maybe label chasing and ego will just keep fuelling these price increases. but as somebody who doesn't buy into that, it makes for quite a spectacle

 

I would agree that the price (as high as it is) will go higher still. Maybe not right away. But thats cause, as high as comics sell for today, overall, they are cheap. The hobby is maturing, and the good stuf just doesnt sell for hundreds anymore, or even a grand. There are enough well funded collectors who buy and hold, and another group who buy then sell to buy again to keep prices moving higher. They flip, but out of necessity as opposed to the flipping profiteers.

 

Anyway, why should the minor key books sell for 5 or 10 grand in the scarcer to grades? So long as there less than 5 or so copies out there. Thats about how many high end run chasers we have, no?

[Aman619]

I think high grade collectors have change focus since CGC. Obviously, right? Before CGC you bought a 'NM' copy. SOme were better than others, but once you had one you were less focussed on an uopgrade because w/o carrying your books to a show how could you know a newer copy was actualy better.

 

But now comics have people in Florida lok=oking closely at them and putting big numbers on them. And we can all do the math in our heads: I have a 9.0 at home. This is a 9.2. Ergo - - THIS one is an upgrade.

 

Rinse and repeat up to 9.8

[batman_fan]

I don't really care what someone spends their money on. Would I pay $10k for that book, no way! For me, it is a $200 dollar book on a good day but that is because I don't really place any significance on it. What I do take serious issue with is that assuming this sell was real, I don't have a 9.8 to sell. If a 9.6 is worth $10k, a 9.8 should be worth at least $15k.

[COI]

Yep. And the number on the label not only opened the door for upgrades, but also comparison and competition. And this competition is the only explanation for what we're seeing in terms of pressing (besides the obvious financial incentives for "dealers") and the multiples being paid from one grade to the next.

[tth2]

Plenty GA books bore me into insanity, but I respect some of my friends rights to gush over them. But they aren't trying to make the point that All Western Winners #2 or Red Raven #1 (or whatever) is the be all, end all of comics lore.

:mad:You making fun of Red Raven #1, the greatest comic book in the history of mankind?! I'll kill you and your family!!!

 

 

 

[tth2]

I think high grade collectors have change focus since CGC. Obviously, right? Before CGC you bought a 'NM' copy. SOme were better than others, but once you had one you were less focussed on an uopgrade because w/o carrying your books to a show how could you know a newer copy was actualy better.

 

But now comics have people in Florida lok=oking closely at them and putting big numbers on them. And we can all do the math in our heads: I have a 9.0 at home. This is a 9.2. Ergo - - THIS one is an upgrade.

 

Rinse and repeat up to 9.8

Very true. Of course, what you had in the old days was the big collectors would simply accumulate multiple copies of "NM" books, at relatively low prices, so they could compare at their leisure and determine which one they wanted to keep and which ones were trade fodder. It was a real revelation for me when I found out that the "NM" X-Men #1 I had purchased was the "C" copy of a noted SA collector, as it had never occurred to me to stockpile like that.

 

Of course, when a clearly superior copy came along, such as many of the PC or Curator copies, then there was no hesitation and it was snagged immediately. Never underestimate the talent of the ultra-HG collector to memorize and obsess over the tinest defects in his books and recognize instantly if another copy is better.

[tth2]

Give me one other reason for participation in the registry.

For me personally, it was just cool to list out my books for other peoples' reference. Is there some desire for adulation or some competitiveness? Maybe, but I've been woeful about keeping my registries up to date and I've never been too fussed about not being #1 in any particular registry.

 

Give me, as Andrew said, a reason why ugly 9.6's sell for more than strong 9.4's.

Well, the label is the label, and the market has accepted what the label says. Note that GPA doesn't say "9.6 with bad centering", it just lists an average for 9.6s. As I've said before, I can argue til the cows come home that my book in a 9.4 label is better than most of the copies in a 9.6 lable, but no one is going to pay me a 9.6 price. They'll more likely say that if the book is as good as I say it is, I should resub it and put it into a 9.6 label.

 

Also, I think not all collectors are as discriminating. I have to confess that until I joined these boards, I was totally anal about structural defects but didn't really care about miswraps, and just took the viewpoint that a book shouldn't be penalized for manufacturer deficiencies in quality control. To me, it's still only a differentiator if it's a relatively common book in grade. I'm not going to pass on a 9.6 Adventure 247 because it's got a miswrap or isn't well centered.

 

It's only with the advent of the ability to see scans through the internet and seeing multiple copies of the same issue in a CGC slab with the same grade that more and more people have started to fixate on QP as yet another differentiator.

[kc120us]

Give me one other reason for participation in the registry.

For me personally, it was just cool to list out my books for other peoples' reference. Is there some desire for adulation or some competitiveness? Maybe, but I've been woeful about keeping my registries up to date and I've never been too fussed about not being #1 in any particular registry.

 

Give me, as Andrew said, a reason why ugly 9.6's sell for more than strong 9.4's.

Well, the label is the label, and the market has accepted what the label says. Note that GPA doesn't say "9.6 with bad centering", it just lists an average for 9.6s. As I've said before, I can argue til the cows come home that my book in a 9.4 label is better than most of the copies in a 9.6 lable, but no one is going to pay me a 9.6 price. They'll more likely say that if the book is as good as I say it is, I should resub it and put it into a 9.6 label.

 

Also, I think not all collectors are as discriminating. I have to confess that until I joined these boards, I was totally anal about structural defects but didn't really care about miswraps, and just took the viewpoint that a book shouldn't be penalized for manufacturer deficiencies in quality control. To me, it's still only a differentiator if it's a relatively common book in grade. I'm not going to pass on a 9.6 Adventure 247 because it's got a miswrap or isn't well centered.

 

It's only with the advent of the ability to see scans through the internet and seeing multiple copies of the same issue in a CGC slab with the same grade that more and more people have started to fixate on QP as yet another differentiator.

 

Well said, Tim.

[Dark Knight]

Well, if I had $10k laying around, i'd certainly buy a Batman #1 unrestored low grade. It's hard to stomach how collectors are paying a premium for a 2nd tier perhaps even 3 tier book. It's such a common book to be had in any grade. I don't know, I guess some collectors are just high graded collector freaks.

Well, if I had $10k laying around, i'd certainly NOT buy a Batman #1 unrestored low grade. It's hard to stomach how collectors are paying a premium for a low grade copy, with lots of unattractive stress marks and creases, of one of the most common GA keys. It's such a common book to be had in any grade below VF/NM. I don't know, I guess some collectors are just willing to settle for anything.

 

Yep. Silly us again. Settling for one of the most gigantic comics in history, with first appearances of two of the most important and influential villains in comics history, and beginning an unbroken nearly 70 year run of a single comic character book, who is arguably the second or third most recognizable character in the entire world is just plain silly.

 

I'll settle for that anyday over any 3rd tier SA comic that you have to have a reach like Reed Richards to find any real "keyness" about, any day of the week and thrice on Sunday.

 

But you know that Tim, we've had this discussion before.

 

(thumbs u THanks Bill, you beat me to the punch

[BEACHCOMBER]

Some recent SA sales- for comparision!!

 

 

 

Fantastic Four # 50 - $12,500- 10 copies in grade, with 3 above- Silver Surfer cross-over

 

Avengers # 57 - $7,600 - 13 copies in grade- First Vision Appearance

 

X-men #12 - $14,000 - 2 copies, with 1 above- professor X origin

 

TOS # 39 - $25,250 - 13 in grade with 18 copies above- First Iron man

 

 

for the first full feature Hulk appearance, outside of #1-6,.this seems inline, only X-men #12, has fewer copies in grade...all the rest have at least a dozen copies in grade or higer!!!

 

Just some food for thought!!