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PROBATION DISCUSSIONS
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36,203 posts in this topic

What Sagat did is despicable and should be broadcast through out the boards but isn't probie worthy.

 

 

If only there was some kind of "list" where people who did this kind of thing could be put on some sort of "probation" until they rectify their wrongs.

 

We could broadcast their name on the boards if only such a list existed.

 

Well it was a good idea anyway. I guess we'll never know if it could have worked.

 

Oh well, I'm gonna go make some soup and ruminate until I solve this most dastardly of riddles.

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What Sagat did is despicable and should be broadcast through out the boards but isn't probie worthy.

 

 

If only there was some kind of "list" where people who did this kind of thing could be put on some sort of "probation" until they rectify their wrongs.

 

We could broadcast their name on the boards if only such a list existed.

 

Well it was a good idea anyway. I guess we'll never know if it could have worked.

 

Oh well, I'm gonna go make some soup and ruminate until I solve this most dastardly of riddles.

:roflmao:
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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

I would suggest simply adding a 3rd tier to the already existing HOS and PL. An Off Board Transactions list targetting forum members. This would include e-bay, in person, email deals etc etc.

 

The basic Probation List rules would have to be modified/updated to reflect it is also encompassing off-board transactions.it should be restricted to boardies so they can have a chance to show their side of the story.

 

It is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

 

 

 

 

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

I would suggest simply adding a 3rd tier to the already existing HOS and PL. An Off Board Transactions list targetting forum members. This would include e-bay, in person, email deals etc etc.

 

The basic Probation List rules would have to be modified/updated to reflect it is also encompassing off-board transactions.it should be restricted to boardies so they can have a chance to show their side of the story.

 

It is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

 

 

 

 

An off board black list would be good. I would have some names to add to the list.

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I just quickly reread your original post in PG section. To me you purchased the book based on knowing him from high school. It appears to me that Sagat being a a board member here didn't play a part in the purchasing decision. Now two years later rather than have a warning thread in CG, you are requesting him to be placed on the list because he is a member here.

 

I can see making justifications on transactions that are done off the boards based on the trust of a member here. But I don't see that being the case here. I feel for you and I wish that you get every penny back. I am sure that Sagat's selling days are over here regardless if he is on the list or not.

 

Just a few weeks back purchased a book with an undisclosed color touch. It was terribly done and I didn't catch it in the dim lighting of the LCS. Luckily I looked at it in my car and the spot was very apparent. The fact remains, while it sucks, you should have inspected the book before forking over that much money.

 

Did he actually purchase it on ebay. I am under the impression that it was a face to face transaction all around. If it was on ebay why didn't he use the proper channels through ebay to get his money back.

 

Normally, i would agree with tortoise and others that since this wasnt a board transaction, it shouldnt be probation list worthy.

 

BUT

 

This was an insanely bad transaction. Unless SAGAT had been in the hobby for less than 30 seconds, there is NO possible way he didnt know that book was restored! I'm about a 1 on a scale of 10 detecting resto and even i saw that immediately. My 8 year old daughter would have done a better job re-drawing Thor and Iron Mans head and the lettering!

 

No possible way that SAGAT didnt know this was restored and 100% intend to screw twisty in my mind. I'd vote for probation list on this one definitely (thumbs u

 

 

Add to it that Andy "October" told him to his face, directly, without equivocation, doubt or failure of certainty that the book was absolutely, positively, restored to which he responded that he would "sell it on ebay anyway" which is how Twisty bought it...then you've got something worse than the seller being simply stupid.

 

I did purchase it from SAGAT on ebay however as it was a local pick up he asked me to do it off of ebay, or rather cancel the transaction so he could save the fees.

 

I had not been collection for a few years at this point and had never seen a restored book, even though it was quite bad.

 

I specifically asked him if it was restored while he was sitting there and he said," I don't think it is" and" it looks good to me." This I remember vividly, as it was the "I don't think it is" part that made me decide to meet him half way on the refund as he made it seem like he really did not know.

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

I would suggest simply adding a 3rd tier to the already existing HOS and PL. An Off Board Transactions list targetting forum members. This would include e-bay, in person, email deals etc etc.

 

The basic Probation List rules would have to be modified/updated to reflect it is also encompassing off-board transactions.it should be restricted to boardies so they can have a chance to show their side of the story.

 

It is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

Okay, great, semantics is the wrong word. But why should there be a third list? The probation list is for people who have screwed up, but can redeem themselves. The HOS is for those who have screwed up and are not going to be given another chance. What would the "3rd tier" be?

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

I would suggest simply adding a 3rd tier to the already existing HOS and PL. An Off Board Transactions list targetting forum members. This would include e-bay, in person, email deals etc etc.

 

The basic Probation List rules would have to be modified/updated to reflect it is also encompassing off-board transactions.it should be restricted to boardies so they can have a chance to show their side of the story.

 

It is not a difficult thing to accomplish.

Okay, great, semantics is the wrong word. But why should there be a third list? The probation list is for people who have screwed up, but can redeem themselves. The HOS is for those who have screwed up and are not going to be given another chance. What would the "3rd tier" be?

 

Off site sellers to be cautious of.

I think its a no brainer. If nothing else it will cut down on the numerous "can anyone vouch for" threads by providing an easily accessible list of potentially dangerous sellers.

Edited by tortoise
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I just quickly reread your original post in PG section. To me you purchased the book based on knowing him from high school. It appears to me that Sagat being a a board member here didn't play a part in the purchasing decision. Now two years later rather than have a warning thread in CG, you are requesting him to be placed on the list because he is a member here.

 

I can see making justifications on transactions that are done off the boards based on the trust of a member here. But I don't see that being the case here. I feel for you and I wish that you get every penny back. I am sure that Sagat's selling days are over here regardless if he is on the list or not.

 

Just a few weeks back purchased a book with an undisclosed color touch. It was terribly done and I didn't catch it in the dim lighting of the LCS. Luckily I looked at it in my car and the spot was very apparent. The fact remains, while it sucks, you should have inspected the book before forking over that much money.

 

Did he actually purchase it on ebay. I am under the impression that it was a face to face transaction all around. If it was on ebay why didn't he use the proper channels through ebay to get his money back.

 

Normally, i would agree with tortoise and others that since this wasnt a board transaction, it shouldnt be probation list worthy.

 

BUT

 

This was an insanely bad transaction. Unless SAGAT had been in the hobby for less than 30 seconds, there is NO possible way he didnt know that book was restored! I'm about a 1 on a scale of 10 detecting resto and even i saw that immediately. My 8 year old daughter would have done a better job re-drawing Thor and Iron Mans head and the lettering!

 

No possible way that SAGAT didnt know this was restored and 100% intend to screw twisty in my mind. I'd vote for probation list on this one definitely (thumbs u

 

 

Add to it that Andy "October" told him to his face, directly, without equivocation, doubt or failure of certainty that the book was absolutely, positively, restored to which he responded that he would "sell it on ebay anyway" which is how Twisty bought it...then you've got something worse than the seller being simply stupid.

 

I did purchase it from SAGAT on ebay however as it was a local pick up he asked me to do it off of ebay, or rather cancel the transaction so he could save the fees.

 

I had not been collection for a few years at this point and had never seen a restored book, even though it was quite bad.

 

I specifically asked him if it was restored while he was sitting there and he said," I don't think it is" and" it looks good to me." This I remember vividly, as it was the "I don't think it is" part that made me decide to meet him half way on the refund as he made it seem like he really did not know.

 

We knew eachother in HS, however when I purchased the book from him it was on ebay and I had no idea who he was. All I knew was that this seller was located in Toronto. He contacted me after the sale went down and asked if we could cancel the transaction and he would drop off the book in person and collect the money. I agreed, which was stupid on my behalf.

 

Only when he showed up did I realize who he was and we had not spoken to eachother in over 20 years. I had no idea who he was until that moment. I quickely looked at the book and asked him if it was restored as it looked like it maybe was but I wasn't positive. He replied, "No I dont' think it is" and "It looks good to me" I said are you sure? He repeated again.

 

This transaction had absolutely nothing to do with knowing him as a buddy and buying a book from a buddy, it could have been anyone buying the book from him. It was only after this that we started to talk again, mainly about comics.

 

When I took it into Paradise Comics here in Toronto, I had Peter and Doug (owner and manager) look at it and they said yes definitely the book is restored. I contacted Frank he basically said too bad I can't have my money back. He then refused to answer any calls or emails.

 

I then had a lawyer draw up a letter and ask him to make good. Based on the lawyers advice I had Kenny (Zeman) look at the book and make a professional opinion that it was restored. I was considering court but then decided that it would cost me more to prove all this and evetually just let it slide after months of dealing with this.

 

Now when I got partial payment from him over a week ago our mutual agreement was based on the fact that he was honestly ignorant of the fact that it was restored and I believed him.

 

I hope that clears it up a bit as to whether or not this was an ebay transaction or a transaction between friends.

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A 3rd tier isn't really one that can be "policed". That could turn into a real problem.

 

Lets say you have someone with a vendetta against you, which happens in our little collecting circle alot... over reasons that are simply mindblowing.

 

Had a fellow come into the store a few years back wanting to get his money back on packs of cards from Men in Black II because normal duplication had occurred. I refused and he went on a two year rant about how he was shafted. I was put on his "3rd tier" list.

 

A 3rd tier list isn't a bad idea... just might be hard to oversee without the "confines" of the board.

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

 

 

 

The "legislative intent" of the probation list is to inform forum members of other forum members failing to live up to their promises or transactions.

 

It is also there to warn and hopefully prevent other forum members from being pulled into a transaction, unwittingly, with the same problem forum member.

 

Being stuck on the exact words of how people are added to the probation list is to be mired in the semantics of what's written instead of embracing the broader goal and purpose of the list, why it was instituted, and why it is necessary.

 

When you have one forum member, ripped off by another forum member, and a third forum member can give 1st hand testimony that it is fraudulent in nature and they both come onto this forum to speak about it they have made it the forum's business, they have brought the transaction to this forum.

 

So semantics means exactly what I think it means.

 

The list exists to help and prevent problems and fraud. It doesn't exist to preserve its specific language or WORSE to let its language stand in the way of clear and obvious fraud and warning our members of the same in order to protect themselves.

 

Would the word minutia be more to everyone's liking, being that they are now stuck on the semantics of the word semantics?

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I just quickly reread your original post in PG section. To me you purchased the book based on knowing him from high school. It appears to me that Sagat being a a board member here didn't play a part in the purchasing decision. Now two years later rather than have a warning thread in CG, you are requesting him to be placed on the list because he is a member here.

 

I can see making justifications on transactions that are done off the boards based on the trust of a member here. But I don't see that being the case here. I feel for you and I wish that you get every penny back. I am sure that Sagat's selling days are over here regardless if he is on the list or not.

 

Just a few weeks back purchased a book with an undisclosed color touch. It was terribly done and I didn't catch it in the dim lighting of the LCS. Luckily I looked at it in my car and the spot was very apparent. The fact remains, while it sucks, you should have inspected the book before forking over that much money.

 

 

 

I am seriously hoping you are joking here or that you didn't read Andy "October"'s post about how SAGAT knew that the book was restored, was told to his face it was restored and them stated he was selling it on ebay anyway.

 

People are not allowed to make false claims about their product in order to induce a transaction. There are several criminal statutes built around that concept.

 

Are you REALLY blaming the victim here? Really?

 

They are all members here, including the eye witnesses. Who gives a flying fig about WHY Twisty bought the book from him? The fraudulent description is the core issue here.

 

Because he didn't rely on knowing him from the boards before buying? Really? That's what you are standing on? That's more important than outright fraud?

 

How can you possibly blame Twisty when you have independent 3rd party testimony from an established and respected board member that SAGAT knew for a fact the book was restored and sold it as un-restored?

If you want to stick you head in the sand and ignore what SAGAT did to Twisty that is your choice. The rest of us seem to prefer knowing when something like this happens, protecting ourselves and protecting each other.

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Here's a link to the voting:

 

 

HOS, Probation, or What?

 

 

As of right now it's

 

28 votes for HOS

16 votes for probation

6 for nothing until rules are rewritten

3 lock him in the stockade throw away the key.

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

 

 

 

The "legislative intent" of the probation list is to inform forum members of other forum members failing to live up to their promises or transactions.

 

It is also there to warn and hopefully prevent other forum members from being pulled into a transaction, unwittingly, with the same problem forum member.

 

Being stuck on the exact words of how people are added to the probation list is to be mired in the semantics of what's written instead of embracing the broader goal and purpose of the list, why it was instituted, and why it is necessary.

 

When you have one forum member, ripped off by another forum member, and a third forum member can give 1st hand testimony that it is fraudulent in nature and they both come onto this forum to speak about it they have made it the forum's business, they have brought the transaction to this forum.

 

So semantics means exactly what I think it means.

 

The list exists to help and prevent problems and fraud. It doesn't exist to preserve its specific language or WORSE to let its language stand in the way of clear and obvious fraud and warning our members of the same in order to protect themselves.

 

Would the word minutia be more to everyone's liking, being that they are now stuck on the semantics of the word semantics?

 

I objected to the use of "semantics" being used to overide the specificity of the Probation List: to monitor and report on bad transactions in the Forum Only Selling Area. That is the reason it is placed within the Forum Only Selling Area.

 

This principle has been discussed several times and several times off-board transactions that have gone wrong were not reported on the PL for that very reason: that they were Off-Board. This is not minutia. It impacts the core purpose of the PL and is why I suggested a third tier for transactions that took place Off-Board.

 

The Third Tier would also include transactions that have taken place within the forum's Sales Advertising - Ebay, Dealers, etc. and the forums Wanted areas as well. That would also address those incidents where, many times, the question is raised "Was this advertised in the Ebay, Dealers forum or the Forum Only Selling area?"

 

 

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People keep using the word "semantics" in relation to the Probation List. I do not think "semantics" means what they think it means.

 

There are no semantics. The Probaiton List explicitly targets transactions completed in the Forum Only Selling Area. Where are the semantics there?

 

 

 

 

The "legislative intent" of the probation list is to inform forum members of other forum members failing to live up to their promises or transactions.

 

It is also there to warn and hopefully prevent other forum members from being pulled into a transaction, unwittingly, with the same problem forum member.

 

Being stuck on the exact words of how people are added to the probation list is to be mired in the semantics of what's written instead of embracing the broader goal and purpose of the list, why it was instituted, and why it is necessary.

 

When you have one forum member, ripped off by another forum member, and a third forum member can give 1st hand testimony that it is fraudulent in nature and they both come onto this forum to speak about it they have made it the forum's business, they have brought the transaction to this forum.

 

So semantics means exactly what I think it means.

 

The list exists to help and prevent problems and fraud. It doesn't exist to preserve its specific language or WORSE to let its language stand in the way of clear and obvious fraud and warning our members of the same in order to protect themselves.

 

Would the word minutia be more to everyone's liking, being that they are now stuck on the semantics of the word semantics?

 

+1

 

I think intent is the correct answer, when Divad started this thread a long time ago, there were no votes, no specific language reviews, he started it as a warning system to allert people about potential pitfalls with buyers and sellers. That's what this is, a warning about a potential pitfall.

 

It's nice to have a central place to keep this information, starting more threads might make it harder to find for new people.

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A 3rd tier isn't really one that can be "policed". That could turn into a real problem.

 

Lets say you have someone with a vendetta against you, which happens in our little collecting circle alot... over reasons that are simply mindblowing.

 

Had a fellow come into the store a few years back wanting to get his money back on packs of cards from Men in Black II because normal duplication had occurred. I refused and he went on a two year rant about how he was shafted. I was put on his "3rd tier" list.

 

A 3rd tier list isn't a bad idea... just might be hard to oversee without the "confines" of the board.

 

As it would be restriced to Boardies it would be easier to address. As is often the case with the PL, the offending party is notified, usually after several PMs/emails trying to resolve the issue, that they are being nominated for the PL. That usually results in an appearance by all concerned parties within the Probation Discussion forum. From there both sides would be heard and a decision rendered. Like rendering fat from a nice slab of panchetta.

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