PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[MediumLover]

It's not perfect, but it works, sometimes.

[Boba]

Thanks all for the advice and support in resolving this!

[oakman29]

Thanks all for the advice and support in resolving this!

 

Glad it all worked out.

[Bio-Rupp]

Sigh...I must nominate mikeggg for the Probation List

 

Story is as follows...

 

Purchased a Batman # 19 off mikeegg that came back with a Married cover and replaced staples.

 

I had owned this for a year (paid for it around 4/17/13) before I sent it in to have it graded.

 

I had done a fair amount of business with mikeggg (buying and selling) and was not informed of any work being done to the book... nor was the concept of a married cover revealed to me at any time during my purchase of this book.

 

The sales thread...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=295665&Number=6612058#Post6612058

 

Finally got it sent to CGC... and I let Mike know asap as to the green label designation that was assigned the book through the following PMs...

 

Sent a PM about this on 5/17/14 which was read and not answered.

Sent another PM about this on 11/9/14 which was read and not answered.

Sent another PM on 2/8/15 which was read and not answered.

Sent one last PM on 5/19/15 which was finally read after I posted the book for sale (and the history of purchase) from here...

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=379541&Number=8628367#Post8628367

 

Mike PMd me back on 5/25/15 and explained that he hadn't been on the boards much due to a family/relationship crisis... yet he was able to read my PMs over the past year and not respond.

 

Mike offered no restitution or any attempt to rectify the situation in his PM.

 

I PM'd him back (on 5/26/15) stating I understood family problems and all I wanted was a $60 refund on this $300+ purchase to cover my slabbing and postage fees concerning the book. The book had been in my possession a year and didn't feel I warranted a full refund, I figure slabbing and shipping fees are really all I need back. This PM still sets unread.

 

I understand that mistakes happen concerning catching book repair (I've missed a few myself over the years, and was quick to make things right with the buyer)... I just never would have had the book slabbed had I known the history and true condition of it.

 

I have sent Mike a separate PM telling him of my intentions of nominating him here. I, again, hate to do it due to Mike's and my positive buying/selling history... but this isn't the way to treat repeat business.

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

 

Well, I've received no return contact from my separate PM concerning this issue.

 

Have we reached a consensus concerning this nomination or is more discussion required?

 

xxx ooo

 

Rupp

[HarveySwick]

I think he should be added. He expressly stated "no restoration" which was false.

 

Whether he knew or did not know about the restoration, he is giving false information to potential buyers in his thread. There should be a warning for potential buyers regarding this seller. Luckily, we have the Probation List; which he could have avoided by being reasonable.

 

[Junkdrawer]

Personally If I was the seller, I would offer a complete refund and pay all the grading expenses. I would then sell the newly slabbed book and see where that ends me. Your word should be good on such a claim, 1 day 1 year, or 1 lifetime.

[jimjum12]

As much as I hate to agree (after so much time has elapsed...), he did state "No Restoration", with no qualifiers and no conditions. A claim such as this should be reserved for original owner books, de-slabbed blue labels, etc. ...... where one can be absolutely sure. Personally, I don't expect life time guarantees for books, it's not like we've had a child together. The only way I want to be involved with a book for the rest of my life is if I just keep it. It's obvious, however, that some do have that expectation and that's not likely to change. The lesson here I think is to clearly define your terms in advance in regards to returns. I always liked 6 months for missed resto..... this gives a buyer time to utilize the cheapest and slowest tier, but doesn't tie a casual seller to perpetual responsibility. Luckily most books are unrestored. If I were to sell an expensive key or high dollar book, a case by case basis would certainly be considered for a term of longer than 6 months. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Andahaion]

As much as I hate to agree (after so much time has elapsed...), he did state "No Restoration", with no qualifiers and no conditions. A claim such as this should be reserved for original owner books, de-slabbed blue labels, etc. ...... where one can be absolutely sure. Personally, I don't expect life time guarantees for books, it's not like we've had a child together. The only way I want to be involved with a book for the rest of my life is if I just keep it. It's obvious, however, that some do have that expectation and that's not likely to change. The lesson here I think is to clearly define your terms in advance in regards to returns. I always liked 6 months for missed resto..... this gives a buyer time to utilize the cheapest and slowest tier, but doesn't tie a casual seller to perpetual responsibility. Luckily most books are unrestored. If I were to sell an expensive key or high dollar book, a case by case basis would certainly be considered for a term of longer than 6 months. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

To me this seems one of the more reasonable suggestions. As a casual seller (and honestly casual collector as well), this conversation has really made me pause and reconsider ever selling here again. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe you more serious/professional guys and dolls should be the sellers in this forum.

[Columbia Comics]

As much as I hate to agree (after so much time has elapsed...), he did state "No Restoration", with no qualifiers and no conditions. A claim such as this should be reserved for original owner books, de-slabbed blue labels, etc. ...... where one can be absolutely sure. Personally, I don't expect life time guarantees for books, it's not like we've had a child together. The only way I want to be involved with a book for the rest of my life is if I just keep it. It's obvious, however, that some do have that expectation and that's not likely to change. The lesson here I think is to clearly define your terms in advance in regards to returns. I always liked 6 months for missed resto..... this gives a buyer time to utilize the cheapest and slowest tier, but doesn't tie a casual seller to perpetual responsibility. Luckily most books are unrestored. If I were to sell an expensive key or high dollar book, a case by case basis would certainly be considered for a term of longer than 6 months. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

To me this seems one of the more reasonable suggestions. As a casual seller (and honestly casual collector as well), this conversation has really made me pause and reconsider ever selling here again. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe you more serious/professional guys and dolls should be the sellers in this forum.

 

And now many will understand why I tend to only sell graded books. I want to remove the potential restoration issue.

 

Many people don't like graded books. To them I say: buy a flathead screwdriver!

[wombat]

So what happens in a situation where some people think someone should go on the PL and some people don't?

[Shark]

So what happens in a situation where some people think someone should go on the PL and some people don't?

 

Two weeks on, two weeks off. Two weeks on, two weeks off.....

[Columbia Comics]

So what happens in a situation where some people think someone should go on the PL and some people don't?

 

Two weeks on, two weeks off. Two weeks on, two weeks off.....

 

Sounds like time out....for adults.

[CAHokie]

Thats a good question. I am completely against lifetime warranties or anything over a year really and this is coming from someone who only buys here. Anything over that time period it would be nice if seller makes it right but not PL worthy (assuming there is no evidence of intentional deceit).

[jaybuck43]

So what happens in a situation where some people think someone should go on the PL and some people don't?

 

I would think it doesn't matter what we think. The nominator complied with the rules. He nominated someone for not completing the deal within 30 days (i.e. he bargained to purchase a Batman 19 unrestored and got a restored Bat 19), the seller has taken no steps to rectify the issue, the nominator PMed about the nomination, 3 days have passed, and nothing has been said by the seller. He should be added to the list.

[CAHokie]

How would it work if he would have responded to the pm and said, "I am sorry but I can not issue refunds for things discovered 18 months later because I dont know what happened to that book in that time period."

[EC ed]

this conversation has really made me pause and reconsider ever selling here again.

I think this conversation is a lesson that as a seller, one should have a clearly stated return policy in their sales thread rules. Leaving the return policy unstated opens things up to this sort of debate...as we have discussed before, there are no such things as "normal rules" in a sales thread. You must be clear.

 

Suppose this seller, in his sales thread, had said something like

 

"To the best of my knowledge, my books are unrestored. I will accept returns for six months (or three months, or two weeks...whatever the seller chooses) from the date of purchase, no questions asked. After that, you are out of luck. If you don't think this return policy is liberal enough, don't buy my books."

 

We wouldn't be having this PL conversation right now, correct?

[comix4fun]

How would it work if he would have responded to the pm and said, "I am sorry but I can not issue refunds for things discovered 18 months later because I dont know what happened to that book in that time period."

 

 

That might work with color touch or pieces added, but not a married cover that can be readily matched up with the scans from his original thread.

[EC ed]

I think this conversation is a lesson that as a seller, one should have a clearly stated return policy in their sales thread rules. Leaving the return policy unstated opens things up to this sort of debate...as we have discussed before, there are no such things as "normal rules" in a sales thread. You must be clear.

 

Also, I need to heed my own advice. I've gotten into the habit of stating my sales thread return policy like "I will accept returns for a full refund, no questions asked, within a reasonable time period."

 

I think I now need to state a specific time period for the return window, because "reasonable" is subject to debate...apparently including a lifetime. Of course, if I state a specific time period, nothing would prevent me from going beyond that time period on a case-by-case basis...but being specific would seem to provide some clarity around whether someone could pursue a PL nomination, etc...

[Andahaion]

this conversation has really made me pause and reconsider ever selling here again.

I think this conversation is a lesson that as a seller, one should have a clearly stated return policy in their sales thread rules. Leaving the return policy unstated opens things up to this sort of debate...as we have discussed before, there are no such things as "normal rules" in a sales thread. You must be clear.

 

Suppose this seller, in his sales thread, had said something like

 

"To the best of my knowledge, my books are unrestored. I will accept returns for six months (or three months, or two weeks...whatever the seller chooses) from the date of purchase, no questions asked. After that, you are out of luck. If you don't think this return policy is liberal enough, don't buy my books."

 

We wouldn't be having this PL conversation right now, correct?

 

The conversation is totally a teaching moment and I'm glad you folks are discussing it. And I believe the above to be really sound advice, particularly to folks like myself, regarding the inclusion of a restoration clause into everyone's sales threads. I've only had one sales thread in my brief time here and I purposefully chose books that I knew had been looked at with more experienced eyes (in this case I sold books that I purchased off HA and also one CGC book) not only for the restoration issue, but because no one here knows me. But even at that, I was lax in my return policy...I believe I said something to the effect of "we'll work it out". And now in hindsight, I need to be more clear should I choose to sell again in this forum.

 

When I buy more expensive books, I only buy CGC books. Yes, it's more expensive but that also comes with a piece of mind I find highly valuable.

[skypinkblu]

So what happens in a situation where some people think someone should go on the PL and some people don't?

 

I would think it doesn't matter what we think. The nominator complied with the rules. He nominated someone for not completing the deal within 30 days (i.e. he bargained to purchase a Batman 19 unrestored and got a restored Bat 19), the seller has taken no steps to rectify the issue, the nominator PMed about the nomination, 3 days have passed, and nothing has been said by the seller. He should be added to the list.

 

If you use that logic, then all things are refundable forever.... I'm not sure I want to sell to you...although I might want to hire you;)