PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[crassus]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

[Logan510]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

[crassus]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

 

Speaking for myself only, my reluctance is thinking through the consequences of such a poll. Any poll that so quickly reverses an existing poll will sow further doubts about the validity of the system, and of course one vote to be removed could be followed by another to put him back on, and so on forever until one group is exhausted.

 

My other concern is that each case would be different. I'm not sure where Solarcadet is in this process, but supposing he were on the list and then removed it also sends a dangerous message. I may not think he deserves to be in the Hall of Shame, but equally there is no harm in him being there, and getting him off may be read as endorsing his behaviour.

 

Which is why there is really no substitute for getting it right the first time.

[Logan510]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

 

Speaking for myself only, my reluctance is thinking through the consequences of such a poll. Any poll that so quickly reverses an existing poll will sow further doubts about the validity of the system, and of course one vote to be removed could be followed by another to put him back on, and so on forever until one group is exhausted.

 

My other concern is that each case would be different. I'm not sure where Solarcadet is in this process, but supposing he were on the list and then removed it also sends a dangerous message. I may not think he deserves to be in the Hall of Shame, but equally there is no harm in him being there, and getting him off may be read as endorsing his behaviour.

 

Which is why there is really no substitute for getting it right the first time.

 

 

 

[crassus]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

 

Speaking for myself only, my reluctance is thinking through the consequences of such a poll. Any poll that so quickly reverses an existing poll will sow further doubts about the validity of the system, and of course one vote to be removed could be followed by another to put him back on, and so on forever until one group is exhausted.

 

My other concern is that each case would be different. I'm not sure where Solarcadet is in this process, but supposing he were on the list and then removed it also sends a dangerous message. I may not think he deserves to be in the Hall of Shame, but equally there is no harm in him being there, and getting him off may be read as endorsing his behaviour.

 

Which is why there is really no substitute for getting it right the first time.

 

 

 

 

You asked. I gave you a straight up answer.

[Speedy-D]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

 

Speaking for myself only, my reluctance is thinking through the consequences of such a poll. Any poll that so quickly reverses an existing poll will sow further doubts about the validity of the system, and of course one vote to be removed could be followed by another to put him back on, and so on forever until one group is exhausted.

 

My other concern is that each case would be different. I'm not sure where Solarcadet is in this process, but supposing he were on the list and then removed it also sends a dangerous message. I may not think he deserves to be in the Hall of Shame, but equally there is no harm in him being there, and getting him off may be read as endorsing his behaviour.

 

Which is why there is really no substitute for getting it right the first time.

 

 

 

 

You asked. I gave you a straight up answer.

This was your mistake.

[PovertyRow]

The consolidation of any power, perceived or real, down to a select few is ludicrous.

 

"You don't have to go to college. Is this Russia Danny?"

 

+1

 

Not to mention, the people who would be the absolute best choices for "council" members are those who would never take the position. And I'd probably be leery of those people who would lobby for themselves to get the position. It was said earlier, and it bears repeating because it would be true, the vote for who would be in the group would simply turn into a popularity contest. A few undeserving candidates would get in, and the whole thing would turn into a farce.

 

And for those complaining that the polls simply turn into the "pitchfork and torches mob" where members simply vote one way or the other do to the mob mentality, the answer is simple. Polls can be set up so that the results can't be seen until the time limit of the poll expires. Do the polls this way, and nobody will know where the vote stands until the time for the poll is finished. This seems like a better idea than the "public" voting idea, which would simply turn into a flame-war gone wild.

 

+ 2

 

I REALLY like the idea of keeping a poll secret until a set time, so folks don't lean towards a trend. I don't think I've seen an HOS poll done that way before.

 

+3 (or whatever increment we are on). It is a simple (obvious now that it has been expressed) idea with no downside I can see.

 

Let me say first that I agree, of the two options a blind poll is the simplest solution as it requires no elaborate rule changes and is technically easy. It will indeed have some good effect slowing down a mob mentality.

 

That said there is always a downside in allowing people to pass judgment on a person and remain hidden in doing so. There is no virtue in this. The HoS is condemning a person, its not like voting out a public official. I don't see why, if one really truly believes a person should be condemned, they cannot have the courage of their convictions and say so in public.

The polls we have now are just as anonymous as what's being proposed. The only difference is that the results won't be visible until the poll is ended. :shrug:

 

It helps reduce a tendency to vote with the majority. With the results unseen until the end there would be no majority to be influenced by.

 

Regardless, I think the system does need a shakeout now. Hopefully someone will helm this.

[Speedy-D]

The consolidation of any power, perceived or real, down to a select few is ludicrous.

 

"You don't have to go to college. Is this Russia Danny?"

 

+1

 

Not to mention, the people who would be the absolute best choices for "council" members are those who would never take the position. And I'd probably be leery of those people who would lobby for themselves to get the position. It was said earlier, and it bears repeating because it would be true, the vote for who would be in the group would simply turn into a popularity contest. A few undeserving candidates would get in, and the whole thing would turn into a farce.

 

And for those complaining that the polls simply turn into the "pitchfork and torches mob" where members simply vote one way or the other do to the mob mentality, the answer is simple. Polls can be set up so that the results can't be seen until the time limit of the poll expires. Do the polls this way, and nobody will know where the vote stands until the time for the poll is finished. This seems like a better idea than the "public" voting idea, which would simply turn into a flame-war gone wild.

 

+ 2

 

I REALLY like the idea of keeping a poll secret until a set time, so folks don't lean towards a trend. I don't think I've seen an HOS poll done that way before.

 

+3 (or whatever increment we are on). It is a simple (obvious now that it has been expressed) idea with no downside I can see.

 

Let me say first that I agree, of the two options a blind poll is the simplest solution as it requires no elaborate rule changes and is technically easy. It will indeed have some good effect slowing down a mob mentality.

 

That said there is always a downside in allowing people to pass judgment on a person and remain hidden in doing so. There is no virtue in this. The HoS is condemning a person, its not like voting out a public official. I don't see why, if one really truly believes a person should be condemned, they cannot have the courage of their convictions and say so in public.

The polls we have now are just as anonymous as what's being proposed. The only difference is that the results won't be visible until the poll is ended. :shrug:

 

It helps reduce a tendency to vote with the majority. With the results unseen until the end there would be no majority to be influenced by.

 

Regardless, I think the system does need a shakeout now. Hopefully someone will helm this.

Yep, I get that. The concern I was responding to was that this change would allow "people to pass judgment on a person and remain hidden in doing so." I was just saying that that's already the case.

[MetalPSI]

Has Menace refunded everyone who wanted or needed a refund ?

 

Only one refund that I'm aware of and it's done. Apparently one open sketch opp and the books will be at CGC after the holidays.

 

Good thing we saved the community from him.

 

I just can't see putting this guy in the HOS if he has tried... and is continuing to try... to get the job done.

 

I know a member who can call moderation and get things done in less than 24 hours... maybe we can have him instantly taken off.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about and yet I'm very interested.

 

Since he's in the HOS, he really doesn't have any reason to try to get anything done now. No refunds, no books, no anything.

 

I know the guy didn't handle his business to the best of his abilities... but it appeared he was trying.

 

I suspect he will still fulfill his obligations and the pro-HOS crew will claim it is because they voted him in when it will actually show how foolish they were to do it.

 

Lets hope so. It would be proof that he IS a good person to do business with and not the flake people voted him in for...

[MetalPSI]

I didn't read all of the details on the menace op or really follow it that closely & I didn't vote.

I don't think most of us know how the signature opportunities really work...I don't.

I read there to look at sketches & drama but I rarely post.

 

The little bit that I know about the process tells me that this recent rush to justice is likely to reduce the number of people who are willing to handle these "public" opportunities and take submissions from people they don't already know. When the bar is set low for this type of backlash from a majority of people voting here how can that not make facilitators more cautious about who they do business with?

 

When I first signed up here I "found" the sig forum & thought it was cool that I could communicate through these boards to get one of my personal books signed, sketched & slabbed by a favourite writer/artist...I avoided yellow fever though

 

It would be a shame if the public opportunities become less available because of this.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand all that either. I have books I would love to get signed and sketched, but I have no idea how the system for submission works, or even where the rules to submission, who handles submission and how to get my books back is.

[Speedy-D]

Has Menace refunded everyone who wanted or needed a refund ?

 

Only one refund that I'm aware of and it's done. Apparently one open sketch opp and the books will be at CGC after the holidays.

 

Good thing we saved the community from him.

 

I just can't see putting this guy in the HOS if he has tried... and is continuing to try... to get the job done.

 

I know a member who can call moderation and get things done in less than 24 hours... maybe we can have him instantly taken off.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about and yet I'm very interested.

 

Since he's in the HOS, he really doesn't have any reason to try to get anything done now. No refunds, no books, no anything.

 

I know the guy didn't handle his business to the best of his abilities... but it appeared he was trying.

 

I suspect he will still fulfill his obligations and the pro-HOS crew will claim it is because they voted him in when it will actually show how foolish they were to do it.

 

Lets hope so. It would be proof that he IS a good person to do business with and not the flake people voted him in for...

Well...there's lots of room to get your obligations met eventually and still be a flake. And being a flake shouldn't be enough to get you on the HoS. If people remember what it was like when Frankie (Dr. Frankenstein aka Muscleshark) or Alleybat or Cap Freak were tearing it up, there's a huge difference. To tell you the truth, some of the stuff I've been hearing about solarcadet is closer to that than what Menace's situation appears to be.

[Speedy-D]

I didn't read all of the details on the menace op or really follow it that closely & I didn't vote.

I don't think most of us know how the signature opportunities really work...I don't.

I read there to look at sketches & drama but I rarely post.

 

The little bit that I know about the process tells me that this recent rush to justice is likely to reduce the number of people who are willing to handle these "public" opportunities and take submissions from people they don't already know. When the bar is set low for this type of backlash from a majority of people voting here how can that not make facilitators more cautious about who they do business with?

 

When I first signed up here I "found" the sig forum & thought it was cool that I could communicate through these boards to get one of my personal books signed, sketched & slabbed by a favourite writer/artist...I avoided yellow fever though

 

It would be a shame if the public opportunities become less available because of this.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand all that either. I have books I would love to get signed and sketched, but I have no idea how the system for submission works, or even where the rules to submission, who handles submission and how to get my books back is.

If you're interested, start a thread in the SS section with your questions. Those guys over there know everything.

[slym2none]

Solarcadet's nomination is a "nip it in the bud" thing. IMHO, he has the ability to get that far (a la CapFreak) and has proven so with just a few actions here. I don't think it is an overreaction.

 

Menace does seem PL-worthy, but not HoS.

 

 

 

-slym

[slym2none]

I didn't read all of the details on the menace op or really follow it that closely & I didn't vote.

I don't think most of us know how the signature opportunities really work...I don't.

I read there to look at sketches & drama but I rarely post.

 

The little bit that I know about the process tells me that this recent rush to justice is likely to reduce the number of people who are willing to handle these "public" opportunities and take submissions from people they don't already know. When the bar is set low for this type of backlash from a majority of people voting here how can that not make facilitators more cautious about who they do business with?

 

When I first signed up here I "found" the sig forum & thought it was cool that I could communicate through these boards to get one of my personal books signed, sketched & slabbed by a favourite writer/artist...I avoided yellow fever though

 

It would be a shame if the public opportunities become less available because of this.

 

 

 

 

I don't understand all that either. I have books I would love to get signed and sketched, but I have no idea how the system for submission works, or even where the rules to submission, who handles submission and how to get my books back is.

 

Spend some time reading around the Signatures Room forum. There is lots of info there.

 

 

 

-slym

[MetalPSI]

Has Menace refunded everyone who wanted or needed a refund ?

 

Only one refund that I'm aware of and it's done. Apparently one open sketch opp and the books will be at CGC after the holidays.

 

Good thing we saved the community from him.

 

I just can't see putting this guy in the HOS if he has tried... and is continuing to try... to get the job done.

 

I know a member who can call moderation and get things done in less than 24 hours... maybe we can have him instantly taken off.

 

I have no idea what you're talking about and yet I'm very interested.

 

Since he's in the HOS, he really doesn't have any reason to try to get anything done now. No refunds, no books, no anything.

 

I know the guy didn't handle his business to the best of his abilities... but it appeared he was trying.

 

I suspect he will still fulfill his obligations and the pro-HOS crew will claim it is because they voted him in when it will actually show how foolish they were to do it.

 

Lets hope so. It would be proof that he IS a good person to do business with and not the flake people voted him in for...

Well...there's lots of room to get your obligations met eventually and still be a flake. And being a flake shouldn't be enough to get you on the HoS. If people remember what it was like when Frankie (Dr. Frankenstein aka Muscleshark) or Alleybat or Cap Freak were tearing it up, there's a huge difference. To tell you the truth, some of the stuff I've been hearing about solarcadet is closer to that than what Menace's situation appears to be.

 

I'll agree with you on that. Having been around a bit more and educating myself on how things work here, I can understand the true meaning of having the HoS and PL. Menace's situation WAS more of a PL than HoS offense. If there is a poll to remove him, I will be changing my vote to do so.

 

And thanks for the info on the SS stuff I inquired about.

[Speedy-D]

Solarcadet's nomination is a "nip it in the bud" thing. IMHO, he has the ability to get that far (a la CapFreak) and has proven so with just a few actions here. I don't think it is an overreaction.

 

Menace does seem PL-worthy, but not HoS.

 

 

 

-slym

I'm with you on both counts. Solarcadet has been dickish enough to make me think that, given the opportunity, he'd pull something pretty egregious.

[Logan510]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

I used to assume that the HoS was like the "Hall of Fame for Scoundrels" and that I'd know a bona fide candidate when I saw one, kind of like how there is often a clear consensus on certain athletes that they are headed for the Hall of Fame. But I can see this analogy is not sufficient.

 

Neither Solarcadet nor Menace are in any sense Hall of Fame scoundrels, not even close.

 

So make a poll calling for a vote to get them off the list

 

Speaking for myself only, my reluctance is thinking through the consequences of such a poll. Any poll that so quickly reverses an existing poll will sow further doubts about the validity of the system, and of course one vote to be removed could be followed by another to put him back on, and so on forever until one group is exhausted.

 

My other concern is that each case would be different. I'm not sure where Solarcadet is in this process, but supposing he were on the list and then removed it also sends a dangerous message. I may not think he deserves to be in the Hall of Shame, but equally there is no harm in him being there, and getting him off may be read as endorsing his behaviour.

 

Which is why there is really no substitute for getting it right the first time.

 

 

 

 

You asked. I gave you a straight up answer.

 

Did you?

[Menace]

Yes, a blind poll. Colour me unimpressed. Take a poll in moderns on whether the latest TV rumour will be a smash hit. People love to pile on.

 

 

Here is what I see.

 

Menace took on way too much. I called this the day he joined the boards. For those who wish to research I believe I posted this when he offered multiple opps in the 1st week he joined the boards.

 

So he is now drowning in a pile of commitments and I'll bet he is so overwhelmed that he has no idea what to do next. I'll also bet that he is not organized enough to even have an idea of the full list to be completed.

 

So, as a community we can step on the head of the drowning man or help him out of the water. All I see here is inexperience and not a desire to rip anyone off. Someone asked if holding a buyer's money for 5 months is ripping someone off. No it is not. He was refunded.

 

So long as Menace has a desire and we see an attempt to clear things up then he belongs on the probation list. When all those with an issue decide to write off their time and money then we can all say a collective you and put him in the HOS.

 

Doug Scott offered to help with one issue and there are a few of us that can help with the other opps if need be.

 

I completely understand that some feel disrespected, used, played or lied to but when we don't take intention into account and only the results then who does that leave willing to try?

 

Signature Series and sketch opps can become overwhelming very fast. I probably have more experience than the average submitter and I severely limit the quantity and control who I allow to submit through me. This was learned over time.

 

Is this just a really long winded way of saying "Burn the Witch?" If not, expect it to fall on deaf ears.

 

I think we can agree on the odds of anything calming the mob but I thought it was worth a try. The HOS is quickly becoming useless as well. I stopped using the "No HoS or Probies" in my sales threads. Although the list of boardies I will not accept any SS subs from has grown tremendously.

 

In the SS forum, Menace said he never received my email. PM me your email and I can forward you his response to my email. Its not just about getting my refund. I am not going to let him bash me by saying he did not get my emails. He is showing no remorse and needs to man up and tell the truth for once.

 

So I am still waiting for this communication to be produced... was this a lie? Who needs to man up and tell the truth here?

 

 

[Menace]

For anyone who missed it MENACE is being nominated for the HOS. Vote is on page 1990

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7234272&fpart=1990

 

And he already hit the notify moderator button on the poll.

 

I guess he feels we shouldn't follow our own guidelines.

 

 

Didn't you know he is above the rules??? How else could he still operate as a facilitator for CGC with all of the complaints on him

 

Where is this list of complaints you keep referring to? I see 2 issues.

 

He has had numerous complaints on him brought to Mikes attention of the last year or more. All of this is nothing new with Menace.

 

AKA - you do not know. It's ok not to know. If you have a list please share otherwise hearsay doesn't help. (thumbs u

 

I sense a very personal vibe with your posts. Do you have something personal with Menace?

 

No not hearsey what I know is from my conversations with Mike B a year ago when Menace screwed me. Menace also was added to the probie list last May by me. After a long apology Email from him about his family business blah blah blah. I felt bad and request the mods delete my flamming. I'm sure there are some from the ss room than can recall this and back me. Dscott I am sure remembers he helped with the situation.

 

Can you please produce this email... now this one for sure is a total lie.

 

Again, you freaked out after I posted your full name, as you lied then, saying I had not refunded you so I posted the PayPal transaction ID # etc.

 

This is your second lie... I think your should be on the HOS....

[Bosco685]

Solarcadet's nomination is a "nip it in the bud" thing. IMHO, he has the ability to get that far (a la CapFreak) and has proven so with just a few actions here. I don't think it is an overreaction.

 

Menace does seem PL-worthy, but not HoS.

 

 

 

-slym

 

I do agree with Slym. Solarcadet lied about his father's death to get out of a transaction (and admitted it later), changed up his sales terms in the middle of an active transaction, and then blew it all out of proportion by (1) stating he didn't care as he would do transactions privately and (2) started changing his username a few times.

 

He started off with PL-level activity, and pretty much drove people to a HOS vote with his Cap Freak-like antics.