PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Park]

I've often thought it would be a good idea to hold the Hall of Shame votes in Comics General. You would get more people voting there. A separate thread for each poll.

 

While I would not be afraid to voice my vote in person and I understand where Park is coming from, I think that there would be too many followers. People who think there are people here, who know more than others.

 

I hear it all the time..."important board members" etc.

 

So I'm not sure it would have the effect that Park is looking for.

 

What I would like to see is a blind poll, one where you can't see the results until it's over, so people don't make announcements in-between. That way maybe there would be less bandwagon stuff that way.

 

As far as having a committee to decide and having them voted on each year. It's going to be difficult to do that. What if people are away? I'm also not a huge fan of more and more rules.

 

Sometimes less is more.

 

 

 

 

There are going to be followers here no matter which way you shake it loose. The main thing that I would encourage is people stating their position when they cast their vote. Of course people will be swayed by another boardie's position but that is the point.

 

Quite honestly, there are so many people here that just shout the loudest in hyperbolic generalities and others join in and we have a mob. A non anonymous poll, with people clearly stating their position is the best way for others to make a well reasoned decision. I can look at the situation and make a decision but I also like to hear other positions in case I am missing a perspective. Almost nothing is black and white.

 

Mikey will have a cow but I don't care at this point. Stating that a committee is "ludicrous" is getting tiresome and the unending hyperbole does nothing to move the discussion. Do I agree with a committee? No, but the wild hyperbole basically ended any discussion. If that is how these discussions, and these boards in general, want to operate, guess what, you are going to be left with the mob because any reasonable discussion is not going to be worth dealing with this...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[newshane]

I see that the discussion regarding Menace is still raging.

 

I feel compelled at this point to discuss my experience.

 

1. There were issues with my order and issues with communication through the CGC message board.

 

2. Menace corrected these issues once I contacted him through email.

 

3. Menace delivered his product and issued the appropriate refunds within 48 hours of being contacted.

 

That is my basic experience. Take it for what you may. But for the record, I ultimately ended up satisfied.

 

I think the biggest problem here is communication. I don't think he is HOS worthy; I'm convinced his mistakes were honest and not malicious.

 

I do think it's fair, however, to air criticism at his "disappearance" from the board. If you make contractual agreements through the board, then you should use the system as a vehicle through which to maintain contact with your customers. I think the person making the money should be the one acting proactively throughout the transaction. When you sell something, like it or not, you are also providing customer service. If there is an issue or necessary update to be made, then it's up to the person providing the service to speak up first. As a seller myself, I think it's better to be proactive when there are problems or delays. It simply looks better than waiting for people to come knocking.

 

Just my opinions on the subject. I figured I'd post my experiences because people are continuing to call him out for not making things right. Well, he made things right with me...thankfully.

 

 

 

[Bio-Rupp]

Can anyone link me to the post that has Menace's HOS poll ?

 

Thanks

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7234259#Post7234259

Let's try a little test, quite unofficial. This poll will run through Christmas Eve, and we can't see the results until it's ended.

 

a better test would be to place this in the Comics General portion of the boards.

 

 

Why not just put a link in the Announcements Section

[thehumantorch]

Menace didn't seem to handle his business here on the boards properly but I don't think it's HOS worthy.

 

Probation List was designed to identify people who haven't completed deals properly and pressure them into fixing the problem. Anyone on the list has an opportunity to address and fix the problem.

 

The HOS is for those who've repeatedly screwed up or committed an act of great harm. Anyone on the list is considered incorrigible and beyond probation.

 

It doesn't make sense to add Menace to the HOS. Feels like a witch hunt to me

 

[skypinkblu]

I've often thought it would be a good idea to hold the Hall of Shame votes in Comics General. You would get more people voting there. A separate thread for each poll.

 

While I would not be afraid to voice my vote in person and I understand where Park is coming from, I think that there would be too many followers. People who think there are people here, who know more than others.

 

I hear it all the time..."important board members" etc.

 

So I'm not sure it would have the effect that Park is looking for.

 

What I would like to see is a blind poll, one where you can't see the results until it's over, so people don't make announcements in-between. That way maybe there would be less bandwagon stuff that way.

 

As far as having a committee to decide and having them voted on each year. It's going to be difficult to do that. What if people are away? I'm also not a huge fan of more and more rules.

 

Sometimes less is more.

 

 

 

 

There are going to be followers here no matter which way you shake it loose. The main thing that I would encourage is people stating their position when they cast their vote. Of course people will be swayed by another boardie's position but that is the point.

 

Quite honestly, there are so many people here that just shout the loudest in hyperbolic generalities and others join in and we have a mob. A non anonymous poll, with people clearly stating their position is the best way for others to make a well reasoned decision. I can look at the situation and make a decision but I also like to hear other positions in case I am missing a perspective. Almost nothing is black and white.

 

Mikey will have a cow but I don't care at this point. Stating that a committee is "ludicrous" is getting tiresome and the unending hyperbole does nothing to move the discussion. Do I agree with a committee? No, but the wild hyperbole basically ended any discussion. If that is how these discussions, and these boards in general, want to operate, guess what, you are going to be left with the mob because any reasonable discussion is not going to be worth dealing with this...

I think you are strong enough to withstand influences and state your position,but I know that many others don't want to post here because of the risk of conflict.

 

I'm not sure an open poll would bring those people out and I feel strongly that we need their participation, too.

 

Right now someone makes the request to have the person in the HOS, the potential HOS has the opportunity to respond then there is a poll.

 

I still think the threads belong in CG, but maybe having the people with strong opinions, nay or yay, should voice those opinions for a few days, THEN there could be a poll.

 

That way, people who are angry, would have a chance to calm down, people who need more background could read the comments, and the accused would have a few days to get their act together.

 

These HOS polls do not have to be rushed, do they?

 

I am not disagreeing with you Shawn, I see your point, but ...Just brainstorming here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[greggy]

You people are all crazy.

[comix4fun]

[Bosco685]

[Bosco685]

[skypinkblu]

You people are all crazy.

 

Is that a step up from being called a dorkette, ?

[Bosco685]

[joecgcmaniac]

Thread cleansing.

[HarveySwick]

*poof*

[Speedy-D]

Thread cleansing.

How will literally everyone form their opinions now?

[bababooey]

 

[jsilverjanet]

I've often thought it would be a good idea to hold the Hall of Shame votes in Comics General. You would get more people voting there. A separate thread for each poll.

 

While I would not be afraid to voice my vote in person and I understand where Park is coming from, I think that there would be too many followers. People who think there are people here, who know more than others.

 

I hear it all the time..."important board members" etc.

 

So I'm not sure it would have the effect that Park is looking for.

 

What I would like to see is a blind poll, one where you can't see the results until it's over, so people don't make announcements in-between. That way maybe there would be less bandwagon stuff that way.

 

As far as having a committee to decide and having them voted on each year. It's going to be difficult to do that. What if people are away? I'm also not a huge fan of more and more rules.

 

Sometimes less is more.

 

 

 

 

There are going to be followers here no matter which way you shake it loose. The main thing that I would encourage is people stating their position when they cast their vote. Of course people will be swayed by another boardie's position but that is the point.

 

Quite honestly, there are so many people here that just shout the loudest in hyperbolic generalities and others join in and we have a mob. A non anonymous poll, with people clearly stating their position is the best way for others to make a well reasoned decision. I can look at the situation and make a decision but I also like to hear other positions in case I am missing a perspective. Almost nothing is black and white.

 

Mikey will have a cow but I don't care at this point. Stating that a committee is "ludicrous" is getting tiresome and the unending hyperbole does nothing to move the discussion. Do I agree with a committee? No, but the wild hyperbole basically ended any discussion. If that is how these discussions, and these boards in general, want to operate, guess what, you are going to be left with the mob because any reasonable discussion is not going to be worth dealing with this...

I think you are strong enough to withstand influences and state your position,but I know that many others don't want to post here because of the risk of conflict.

 

I'm not sure an open poll would bring those people out and I feel strongly that we need their participation, too.

 

Right now someone makes the request to have the person in the HOS, the potential HOS has the opportunity to respond then there is a poll.

 

I still think the threads belong in CG, but maybe having the people with strong opinions, nay or yay, should voice those opinions for a few days, THEN there could be a poll.

 

That way, people who are angry, would have a chance to calm down, people who need more background could read the comments, and the accused would have a few days to get their act together.

 

These HOS polls do not have to be rushed, do they?

 

I am not disagreeing with you Shawn, I see your point, but ...Just brainstorming here...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

to add to this, maybe it would be helpful for individuals to post their reasons but not have those posts argued against. it seems the minute someone posts something contradicting, the instant reaction by some is to dissect any opposition instead of allowing the discussion to continue. not my greatest idea - just brainstorming.

 

Quick question, has there ever been an instance where the poll went to HOS and the individual was not voted in?

[fastballspecial]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

 

Maybe it's time to have a third list? I'm personally tired of these guys who come along and cheat people and only feel remorse and try to make it right because they've been caught or called out.

 

 

Perhaps.

 

Right now we've got a "make things right" list and a "burn in the fires of hell for all eternity" list. We probably need a "relentless anus incapable of empathy and civil dealing" list to fit in between.

 

That's what I'm talking about. A registered repeat offender list. How many times have we seen people get on the PL and then decide 5 months later they want to sell again so they make people whole and get removed from the list?

 

This way a new member can look at this "buyer / seller" beware list and know there may be a chance they'll get screwed because the person has a history.

 

Good idea. Nods

 

[fastballspecial]

As much as I am critical of Menace's handling of communication and fulfillment of duties in all the matters that came to light, I can't help but feel that adding him to a list of people who are actual thieves is an error that, in retrospect, will be the moment when this type of list "jumped the shark" into irrelevance, sadly.

 

+1, unless the HOS is kept for just the most egregious incidents, it looses it's bite.

 

I didn't vote either, I watch this forum but I got sidetracked and missed it, which is why I'd like the votes to be in CG, with a specific header, Proposal for So and So to enter the HOS, with the thread bumped so more people can see it. The more people who see it and vote, the more relevant any decision becomes.

 

But I don't think it will work without a lead statement, stating exactly what the HOS is for. I think there are newer people who think it equates to being told to sit in the corner in school. It's just that easy for new people to nagivate...or SOT either it seems;)

 

It might be a lack of experience or perspective, as many of the folks advocating most strongly for HOS in the last couple of incidents were not even here for most of the HOS member's inductions much less witnessed their actions first hand.

 

That might be the disconnect as if they don't realize there were full on 5 figures scams and criminal acts amongst those earlier inductees they make think that the PL list is a "jerk list" and the HOS is a "mega jerk list"

 

The red rocks and solarcadet inductions were the furthest afield we'd traveled. It departed from flat out theft and wanton forum destruction to more civil issues, borderline fraud, and simply lying. All are bad actions, but the HOS was carved out as a place mostly for those beyond (or not desirous of) rehabilitation. The argument for including those that thumbed their nose at the lies and misdeeds and the forum in general. That made sense. They didn't want to be here, conform to the laws of civility here, and do right by others here, so it was ensured they would get their wish and not be welcome here.

 

RR and Solar seemed mostly of this ilk. The new breed of unrepentant guys who don't care to conform to the rules set up or to take seriously their duties to others. I get that. It was a stretch from what the HOS started out at, but I got how the discussion went that way.

 

The Menace situation doesn't give me any sense of why or how this fits in with all the other "rogues". Even if ineffective and slow, he seems to be responding and attempting to fix his issues.

 

This leap, from Alleybat (for example), to Solarcadet, to Menace seems to have lost something in translation and it doesn't seem for the better.

 

 

Maybe it's time to have a third list? I'm personally tired of these guys who come along and cheat people and only feel remorse and try to make it right because they've been caught or called out.

 

A--Men brother...I personally was involved with an incident where I only got refunded finally because the seller admitted that if he didn't make it right it would be harder for him to keep selling on the boards...

 

That's why I'm in total agreement with those who are quick to put someone in the HOS sooner..it helps prevent more scams sooner rather than letting it keep happening over time

 

I agree with this as well especially for new sellers because this year we have seen a large influx of new sellers. I would love to sticky a list of PL and HOS in front of all 3 Sales forums.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Fastballspecial

[IchigosSoul]

So does this mean I can nominate every facilitator on here who has had ops going on for over a year with no completion? What about the one's I feel don't communicate properly? Or the ones who ship me broken slabs? Cause I have some in each catigory. Of course, I have some who also do quite well with all of the above and of which I have 0 complaints (Doug being at the top of that list).

 

Not saying that I will, but it seems that Menace is getting toasted for things that other facilitators are also doing and getting away with it.

[Ryan.]

Have any of those facilitators not worked to make the issues right? If so then yes, they should be nominated.