PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[Dick Pontoon]

You'll need to send a PM to Architect, the Board Overlord, and plead your case with him. I'm sure he'll take care of you in short order. (thumbs u

[MediumLover]

Personal payments for merchandise is against Paypal policy.

 

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase

 

"Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill.

 

 

 

(emphasis obviously added.)

 

Despite the fact that it has been discussed to death on these boards, despite the fact that Paypal makes it very clear when you actually send money, despite the fact that this board has a stated policy saying sellers cannot ask for personal payments for merchandise, people STILL insist on doing it.

 

And PLEASE don't try to play word games and say "well, the seller can't ask, but the buyer can offer!" If you do...you're just ASKING for someone to rip you off.

 

And what buyers trying to "help" sellers don't understand is that sending personal for merchandise makes a seller risk his/her ability to receive personal payments for what they are actually FOR.

 

I CANNOT tell you how many times I've wanted to send CAWs and other "official witness like types" money for this or that sig opportunity, only to find out that they FOOLISHLY took personal payments for merchandise, and LOST the ability....and now I can't send them money for signing fees, CGC grading fees, and all sorts of stuff which ISN'T FOR THEM, without them paying fees. Then they don't WANT to pay fees (and rightly so), and so *I* have to either cover the fees, or send them the money some other more inconvenient way.

 

All of which could have been avoided had they just lived by the damn rules in the first place.

 

And buyers who send personal....? Do you just not understand that it's the same thing as sending CASH? Would you send CASH to a total stranger? But yet you have the audacity to complain about it when a seller walks off, or looks like they might walk off, with your money....? You have NO recourse whatsoever if you send personal payment for merchandise, and the seller just walks off with your money. NONE. And you will be laughed at by Paypal, when they say "excuse me...but why did you send a PERSONAL payment for merchandise to someone you don't know?"

 

 

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Kong...but this is a lesson you needed to learn, and maybe this will prevent you from making an even worse mistake like this in the future, and perhaps keep other members from making the same mistake. You should be grateful that it wasn't worse.

 

A grown person, with knowledge of how the internet works, sending the equivalent of CASH to someone you don't know, despite all sorts of measures to prevent just such a thing from happening? And you're offended enough to call someone a "jack hole" because they posted an ANONYMOUS not aimed directly at you ...? You should be offended at yourself and your own foolishness instead (and it looks like you are. Kudos!)

 

Finally...Paypal provides a SERVICE. They have a LEGAL RIGHT to charge for that service. Just because there is a "way around" paying for that service does NOT mean that, in full contravention of their terms, it's ok to STEAL from them by not paying the fee they charge for that service.

 

If you don't like Paypal's fees: DON'T USE THEIR SERVICE.

 

Please...explain to me why we have a "Probation List" to go after "naughty boardies", but COMPLETELY turn a blind eye to ACTUAL THEFT from Paypal?

 

Right. Paypal's a big, horrid corporation, their fees aren't "fair", and they "deserve" whatever people can get away with.

 

Hypocrisy at it's FINEST.

 

 

----> "I guess it's just money moving if the CAW isn't charging you anything over and above what could be considered "moving money" for their out of pocket costs" <-----

 

(thumbs u

 

but other than that, services should attract the fee.

 

(thumbs u

 

A CAW should probably itemize their out of pocket separate from their service fees if wanting to avoid paypal fees on the bulk of the payment but I think it's still a stretch to call it a non-commercial transaction

I don't disagree with the stance on personal paypal abuse but your example of an "eligible" transaction is flawed.

 

 

 

 

Fees depend on whether you are making a commercial transaction or a personal transaction. A commercial transaction involves buying and selling goods or services, and payments received when you "request money" using PayPal. A personal transaction involves sending money (initiated from the "Personal" tab of the "Send Money" flow or Send Money through PayPal mobile) to and receiving money into your PayPal account from friends and family without making a purchase, (ie the payment is not for goods or services).

 

 

Stan Lee is charging $100 for his sig, so could you Paypal me the money for that? Personal, as it's not for me, but for him.

 

(thumbs u

 

My fee for getting Stan Lee's sig is $35. You can Paypal me that money (but don't send personal, because you are buying MY service.)

 

(thumbs u

Is this not using Paypal to pay Stan Lee ?

[PovertyRow]

A very simple way of looking at this. If you pay via Paypal Personal you should not be getting anything in return for that payment.

[MediumLover]

A very simple way of looking at this. If you pay via Paypal Personal you should not be getting anything in return for that payment.

Thus, the quoted example does not qualify.

[KONG]

Under the new "simplified rules" here's all you need to do now:

 

2) Notification on the Probation Discussion Thread

a) After the 30 Day Rule is fulfilled, the accuser will send a PM to the accused informing them the issue is being submitted to the Probation Discussion Thread for their inclusion in the PL. This should be a new PM and not part of an existing PM chain.

 

b) After the PM is sent the accuser may submit the accused for inclusion in the PL via the Probation Discussion Thread.

 

c) The accuser should outline as completely as possible the circumstances surrounding the transaction in dispute. Where possible include hyperlinks to board transactions and contact attempts along with dates.

 

d) If reasonable additional expenses are incurred the accuser may include them as part of the resolution. The validity of "reasonable additional expenses" may be subject to discussion.

 

e) If completing the transaction is no longer possible, the accuser may outline a proposed path to resolution.

 

3) Being Placed On The PL

a) After a 72-hour waiting period, if the accused does not respond they will be placed on the PL.

b) If the accused responds in the Probation Discussion Thread and it is determined the conditions of the transaction was not met, they will be added to the PL.

 

c) If the accused is not available during that 72-hour period and is placed on the PL, they are free to later respond in the Probation Discussion Thread and present their side.

 

d) If the accused has not responded in the Probation Discussion Thread but continues to post on the boards, a reply can be made informing them they are being considered for placement on the PL.

 

Not a word from this doosh

[lookwhoitis]

Paypal personal breaks the "graemlin post only" protest.

 

[tjanse]

sorry to hear this kong your a great boardie and wish this didnt happen to ya. I wish you best of luck in all this.

[RockMyAmadeus]

A very simple way of looking at this. If you pay via Paypal Personal you should not be getting anything in return for that payment.

Thus, the quoted example does not qualify.

 

 

 

 

=

[RockMyAmadeus]

Paypal personal breaks the "graemlin post only" protest.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Personal payments for merchandise is against Paypal policy.

 

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase

 

"Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill.

 

 

 

(emphasis obviously added.)

 

Despite the fact that it has been discussed to death on these boards, despite the fact that Paypal makes it very clear when you actually send money, despite the fact that this board has a stated policy saying sellers cannot ask for personal payments for merchandise, people STILL insist on doing it.

 

And PLEASE don't try to play word games and say "well, the seller can't ask, but the buyer can offer!" If you do...you're just ASKING for someone to rip you off.

 

And what buyers trying to "help" sellers don't understand is that sending personal for merchandise makes a seller risk his/her ability to receive personal payments for what they are actually FOR.

 

I CANNOT tell you how many times I've wanted to send CAWs and other "official witness like types" money for this or that sig opportunity, only to find out that they FOOLISHLY took personal payments for merchandise, and LOST the ability....and now I can't send them money for signing fees, CGC grading fees, and all sorts of stuff which ISN'T FOR THEM, without them paying fees. Then they don't WANT to pay fees (and rightly so), and so *I* have to either cover the fees, or send them the money some other more inconvenient way.

 

All of which could have been avoided had they just lived by the damn rules in the first place.

 

And buyers who send personal....? Do you just not understand that it's the same thing as sending CASH? Would you send CASH to a total stranger? But yet you have the audacity to complain about it when a seller walks off, or looks like they might walk off, with your money....? You have NO recourse whatsoever if you send personal payment for merchandise, and the seller just walks off with your money. NONE. And you will be laughed at by Paypal, when they say "excuse me...but why did you send a PERSONAL payment for merchandise to someone you don't know?"

 

 

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Kong...but this is a lesson you needed to learn, and maybe this will prevent you from making an even worse mistake like this in the future, and perhaps keep other members from making the same mistake. You should be grateful that it wasn't worse.

 

A grown person, with knowledge of how the internet works, sending the equivalent of CASH to someone you don't know, despite all sorts of measures to prevent just such a thing from happening? And you're offended enough to call someone a "jack hole" because they posted an ANONYMOUS not aimed directly at you ...? You should be offended at yourself and your own foolishness instead (and it looks like you are. Kudos!)

 

Finally...Paypal provides a SERVICE. They have a LEGAL RIGHT to charge for that service. Just because there is a "way around" paying for that service does NOT mean that, in full contravention of their terms, it's ok to STEAL from them by not paying the fee they charge for that service.

 

If you don't like Paypal's fees: DON'T USE THEIR SERVICE.

 

Please...explain to me why we have a "Probation List" to go after "naughty boardies", but COMPLETELY turn a blind eye to ACTUAL THEFT from Paypal?

 

Right. Paypal's a big, horrid corporation, their fees aren't "fair", and they "deserve" whatever people can get away with.

 

Hypocrisy at it's FINEST.

 

 

----> "I guess it's just money moving if the CAW isn't charging you anything over and above what could be considered "moving money" for their out of pocket costs" <-----

 

(thumbs u

 

but other than that, services should attract the fee.

 

(thumbs u

 

A CAW should probably itemize their out of pocket separate from their service fees if wanting to avoid paypal fees on the bulk of the payment but I think it's still a stretch to call it a non-commercial transaction

I don't disagree with the stance on personal paypal abuse but your example of an "eligible" transaction is flawed.

 

 

 

 

Fees depend on whether you are making a commercial transaction or a personal transaction. A commercial transaction involves buying and selling goods or services, and payments received when you "request money" using PayPal. A personal transaction involves sending money (initiated from the "Personal" tab of the "Send Money" flow or Send Money through PayPal mobile) to and receiving money into your PayPal account from friends and family without making a purchase, (ie the payment is not for goods or services).

 

 

Stan Lee is charging $100 for his sig, so could you Paypal me the money for that? Personal, as it's not for me, but for him.

 

(thumbs u

 

My fee for getting Stan Lee's sig is $35. You can Paypal me that money (but don't send personal, because you are buying MY service.)

 

(thumbs u

Is this not using Paypal to pay Stan Lee ?

 

 

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/banking/bank.htm

[silverweb]

Yep, and I believe the intent of probation lists are for a) buyers who don't pay on time or b) sellers who don't ship books after being paid.

 

I agree. No money was sent. Qualitycomix should be more on the ball and send out invoice PMs but does not belong on the Probation list.

 

I have had a few transactions with Brent and have absolutely no hesitation to purchase from him.

[Speedy-D]

Yep, and I believe the intent of probation lists are for a) buyers who don't pay on time or b) sellers who don't ship books after being paid.

 

I agree. No money was sent. Qualitycomix should be more on the ball and send out invoice PMs but does not belong on the Probation list.

 

I have had a few transactions with Brent and have absolutely no hesitation to purchase from him.

You realize it's been over two months now, right? If a buyer hasn't paid after two months, he'll definitely be on the PL, even though no money has changed hands. Why should it be any different for a seller?

[divad]

Yep, and I believe the intent of probation lists are for a) buyers who don't pay on time or b) sellers who don't ship books after being paid.

 

I agree. No money was sent. Qualitycomix should be more on the ball and send out invoice PMs but does not belong on the Probation list.

 

I have had a few transactions with Brent and have absolutely no hesitation to purchase from him.

 

I'm sure Brent has had a good many positive transactions with many board members - he's been here forever. But offering books and not following through with the sale once claimed is equally objectionable. It doesn't matter that no money has changed hands. The rules include such non-actions on the part of a seller. Otherwise, we 'd have a lot more buyers "blown off" by sellers with "better opportunities".

[MediumLover]

Personal payments for merchandise is against Paypal policy.

 

4.1 Receiving Personal Payments. If you are selling goods or services, you may not ask the buyer to send you a Personal Payment for the purchase

 

"Personal Payment" means amounts sent between two individuals (not to or from a business) without a purchase. Examples of Personal Payments include sending a gift to a friend or paying a friend back for your share of a lunch bill.

 

 

 

(emphasis obviously added.)

 

Despite the fact that it has been discussed to death on these boards, despite the fact that Paypal makes it very clear when you actually send money, despite the fact that this board has a stated policy saying sellers cannot ask for personal payments for merchandise, people STILL insist on doing it.

 

And PLEASE don't try to play word games and say "well, the seller can't ask, but the buyer can offer!" If you do...you're just ASKING for someone to rip you off.

 

And what buyers trying to "help" sellers don't understand is that sending personal for merchandise makes a seller risk his/her ability to receive personal payments for what they are actually FOR.

 

I CANNOT tell you how many times I've wanted to send CAWs and other "official witness like types" money for this or that sig opportunity, only to find out that they FOOLISHLY took personal payments for merchandise, and LOST the ability....and now I can't send them money for signing fees, CGC grading fees, and all sorts of stuff which ISN'T FOR THEM, without them paying fees. Then they don't WANT to pay fees (and rightly so), and so *I* have to either cover the fees, or send them the money some other more inconvenient way.

 

All of which could have been avoided had they just lived by the damn rules in the first place.

 

And buyers who send personal....? Do you just not understand that it's the same thing as sending CASH? Would you send CASH to a total stranger? But yet you have the audacity to complain about it when a seller walks off, or looks like they might walk off, with your money....? You have NO recourse whatsoever if you send personal payment for merchandise, and the seller just walks off with your money. NONE. And you will be laughed at by Paypal, when they say "excuse me...but why did you send a PERSONAL payment for merchandise to someone you don't know?"

 

 

I'm sure you're a nice guy, Kong...but this is a lesson you needed to learn, and maybe this will prevent you from making an even worse mistake like this in the future, and perhaps keep other members from making the same mistake. You should be grateful that it wasn't worse.

 

A grown person, with knowledge of how the internet works, sending the equivalent of CASH to someone you don't know, despite all sorts of measures to prevent just such a thing from happening? And you're offended enough to call someone a "jack hole" because they posted an ANONYMOUS not aimed directly at you ...? You should be offended at yourself and your own foolishness instead (and it looks like you are. Kudos!)

 

Finally...Paypal provides a SERVICE. They have a LEGAL RIGHT to charge for that service. Just because there is a "way around" paying for that service does NOT mean that, in full contravention of their terms, it's ok to STEAL from them by not paying the fee they charge for that service.

 

If you don't like Paypal's fees: DON'T USE THEIR SERVICE.

 

Please...explain to me why we have a "Probation List" to go after "naughty boardies", but COMPLETELY turn a blind eye to ACTUAL THEFT from Paypal?

 

Right. Paypal's a big, horrid corporation, their fees aren't "fair", and they "deserve" whatever people can get away with.

 

Hypocrisy at it's FINEST.

 

 

----> "I guess it's just money moving if the CAW isn't charging you anything over and above what could be considered "moving money" for their out of pocket costs" <-----

 

(thumbs u

 

but other than that, services should attract the fee.

 

(thumbs u

 

A CAW should probably itemize their out of pocket separate from their service fees if wanting to avoid paypal fees on the bulk of the payment but I think it's still a stretch to call it a non-commercial transaction

I don't disagree with the stance on personal paypal abuse but your example of an "eligible" transaction is flawed.

 

 

 

 

Fees depend on whether you are making a commercial transaction or a personal transaction. A commercial transaction involves buying and selling goods or services, and payments received when you "request money" using PayPal. A personal transaction involves sending money (initiated from the "Personal" tab of the "Send Money" flow or Send Money through PayPal mobile) to and receiving money into your PayPal account from friends and family without making a purchase, (ie the payment is not for goods or services).

 

 

Stan Lee is charging $100 for his sig, so could you Paypal me the money for that? Personal, as it's not for me, but for him.

 

(thumbs u

 

My fee for getting Stan Lee's sig is $35. You can Paypal me that money (but don't send personal, because you are buying MY service.)

 

(thumbs u

Is this not using Paypal to pay Stan Lee ?

 

 

http://money.howstuffworks.com/personal-finance/banking/bank.htm

(thumbs u

[sufunk]

Yep, and I believe the intent of probation lists are for a) buyers who don't pay on time or b) sellers who don't ship books after being paid.

 

I agree. No money was sent. Qualitycomix should be more on the ball and send out invoice PMs but does not belong on the Probation list.

 

I have had a few transactions with Brent and have absolutely no hesitation to purchase from him.

 

I don't understand this reasoning at all? Under this logic, the only possible way to get on the PL would be for sellers who didn't send books after they were paid for. Anyone could throw up the in a sales thread and not pay and then have the "what??? No money was sent!" defense

[PovertyRow]

Yep, and I believe the intent of probation lists are for a) buyers who don't pay on time or b) sellers who don't ship books after being paid.

 

I agree. No money was sent. Qualitycomix should be more on the ball and send out invoice PMs but does not belong on the Probation list.

 

I have had a few transactions with Brent and have absolutely no hesitation to purchase from him.

 

I don't understand this reasoning at all? Under this logic, the only possible way to get on the PL would be for sellers who didn't send books after they were paid for. Anyone could throw up the in a sales thread and not pay and then have the "what??? No money was sent!" defense

 

Quite right. As the first rule states: "a) If a transaction between board members is not completed within 30 days, the offended party may submit the offender's name for inclusion to the HOS/Probation List (hereafter called the PL)"

 

Posting books for sale, allowing the to be made, then doing nothing is a failure to complete a transaction.

 

In this example, the buyer would stop looking for a particular book/books and may have passed up similar offerings that would have been fulfilled. That is a disservice to the buyer and also to the sellers who may have been offering similar books.

[Anfield Fox]

A few people have suggested Supapimp be added to the Hall of Shame. Having considered it i would like to formally submit him.

 

Here are the details

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5776619#Post5776619

 

Technically it wasn't a marketplace deal, more like a trade but i think it's eligible because:

 

1. I gave some stuff away and paid shipping to send it, he would have recieved something from someone else but he didn't give anything back despite promising to do so. That's receiving goods under false pretense, i.e; that's theft.

 

2. He used the excuse about not wanting to pay shipping despite my and others offering to pay it. He didn't even bother to read it.

 

3. He still refuses to make good on it and basically doesn't care. A few people in that thread said they won't deal with him anymore so might as well make it official.

[Spiderphill]

A few people have suggested Supapimp be added to the Hall of Shame. Having considered it i would like to formally submit him.

 

Here are the details

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5776619#Post5776619

 

Technically it wasn't a marketplace deal, more like a trade but i think it's eligible because:

 

1. I gave some stuff away and paid shipping to send it, he would have recieved something from someone else but he didn't give anything back despite promising to do so. That's receiving goods under false pretense, i.e; that's theft.

 

2. He used the excuse about not wanting to pay shipping despite my and others offering to pay it. He didn't even bother to read it.

 

3. He still refuses to make good on it and basically doesn't care. A few people in that thread said they won't deal with him anymore so might as well make it official.

Sounds good to me

[Speedy-D]

A few people have suggested Supapimp be added to the Hall of Shame. Having considered it i would like to formally submit him.

 

Here are the details

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5776619#Post5776619

 

Technically it wasn't a marketplace deal, more like a trade but i think it's eligible because:

 

1. I gave some stuff away and paid shipping to send it, he would have recieved something from someone else but he didn't give anything back despite promising to do so. That's receiving goods under false pretense, i.e; that's theft.

 

2. He used the excuse about not wanting to pay shipping despite my and others offering to pay it. He didn't even bother to read it.

 

3. He still refuses to make good on it and basically doesn't care. A few people in that thread said they won't deal with him anymore so might as well make it official.

Sounds good to me

For All of Shame? It was $15, right? 5 years ago? And he's had no problems with anyone since? I'd say maybe that was probation-worthy if it'd been brought up at the time, but HoS five years later? Sounds like some serious overkill to me.

[Anfield Fox]

A few people have suggested Supapimp be added to the Hall of Shame. Having considered it i would like to formally submit him.

 

Here are the details

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=5776619#Post5776619

 

Technically it wasn't a marketplace deal, more like a trade but i think it's eligible because:

 

1. I gave some stuff away and paid shipping to send it, he would have recieved something from someone else but he didn't give anything back despite promising to do so. That's receiving goods under false pretense, i.e; that's theft.

 

2. He used the excuse about not wanting to pay shipping despite my and others offering to pay it. He didn't even bother to read it.

 

3. He still refuses to make good on it and basically doesn't care. A few people in that thread said they won't deal with him anymore so might as well make it official.

Sounds good to me

For All of Shame? It was $15, right? 5 years ago? And he's had no problems with anyone since? I'd say maybe that was probation-worthy if it'd been brought up at the time, but HoS five years later? Sounds like some serious overkill to me.

 

Erm i don't think you read the details. A New Mutants 98 CGC 9.6 has never been $15. I was personally out about $80-100 with shipping if i remember correctly and it was 4 1/2 years ago. More than the cash amount it's about conduct, circumstances (Christmas for crying out loud!) and ignoring PM's and replies back then and even now. It's shameful. I let it slide until others were saying what a stand up guy he was and i wanted it known that well, he sadly isn't.