PROBATION DISCUSSIONS 21 21

[comicwiz]

 

I just don't get how this went from a deal going bad on an "absolute" 9.0, to the entitlement of getting a 9.4 as restitution? Are we penalizing people here now because they're wising-up too quickly to give veterans a shot at profiting at their expense?

 

 

It was never an absolute anything. The seller thought it was a 9.4.

 

And we went to giving the buyer what he agreed to buy for the price he agreed to pay as soon as the seller offered the book at the price with full knowledge and forethought.

 

And we aren't penalizing anyone. We are requesting that a seller, an adult, honor their word and complete their deal.

 

Making this about veterans and noobs is a red herring. These are two adults with all their faculties making a voluntary agreement to a deal and one of them potentially lying and cheating his way out of it and people saying to give him a pass because he's "new."

 

I don't see it being a red herring at all. He didn't list this in the marketplace, and the buyer made an offer after seeing it in a PGM book thread. Quoting GPA, discussing pressing scenarios, and capping the book at an 9.0 - it doesn't get anymore absolute than using this approach. As for the owners inexperience, it could range from not having a GPA membership (to at least validate what the buyer was saying) to never having had a book pressed in their life.

 

I think the format and approach require good faith negotiations, and it just appears that the buyer was trying to control the negotiations to the point of not agreeing unless the owner sold it to him at what the owner originally paid. Again, with some experience or knowledge which may have come from the PGM thread, or from a second opinion or communication from the pressing service, everything that took place might have forced him to have a difference of opinion on whether the book could grade higher than was being suggested.

[comix4fun]

 

I just don't get how this went from a deal going bad on an "absolute" 9.0, to the entitlement of getting a 9.4 as restitution? Are we penalizing people here now because they're wising-up too quickly to give veterans a shot at profiting at their expense?

 

 

It was never an absolute anything. The seller thought it was a 9.4.

 

And we went to giving the buyer what he agreed to buy for the price he agreed to pay as soon as the seller offered the book at the price with full knowledge and forethought.

 

And we aren't penalizing anyone. We are requesting that a seller, an adult, honor their word and complete their deal.

 

Making this about veterans and noobs is a red herring. These are two adults with all their faculties making a voluntary agreement to a deal and one of them potentially lying and cheating his way out of it and people saying to give him a pass because he's "new."

 

I don't see it being a red herring at all. He didn't list this in the marketplace, and the buyer made an offer after seeing it in a PGM book thread. Quoting GPA, discussing pressing scenarios, and capping the book at an 9.0 - it doesn't get anymore absolute than using this approach. As for the owners inexperience, it could range from not having a GPA membership (to at least validate what the buyer was saying) to never having had a book pressed in their life.

 

I think the format and approach require good faith negotiations, and it just appears that the buyer was trying to control the negotiations to the point of not agreeing unless the owner sold it to him at what the owner originally paid. Again, with some experience or knowledge which may have come from the PGM thread, or from a second opinion or communication from the pressing service, everything that took place might have forced him to have a difference of opinion on whether the book could grade higher than was being suggested.

 

 

Where were all those communications? I don't see them in the PGM thread?

 

Also buyers and sellers try to control negotiations all the time, in every deal. Unless there's a gun to someone's head the word "NO" works just fine.

 

There was no forcing of anything there.

 

I'd be more apt to worry about whether Matt was acting unethically by not wanting to pay more than GPA 9.0 for a raw book if it wasn't for the seller telling him the book was pressed graded and sold back in September when it appears the book was graded and put into his registry in October.

 

One is a guy trying to get a price where he limits his downside risk and the other is a guy doing a whole bunch more that should concern us all a whole bunch more.

[comicwiz]

 

Taking the "comic" variable out and substituting for something else simpler.

 

I buy a pen for a dollar.

The seller decides it's worth more than a dollar after the fact.

The seller backs out (through various forms of avoidance and alleged lying).

I nominate for PL for this activity.

 

Is it this simple or am I missing something?

Why hasn't the seller chimmed in on this board?

 

It's how the negotiations and final price where achieved that matters to me in making a final decision. More specifically, if someone starts skewing GPA (which I'm not saying happened here) to their advantage by leaving out data which could increase the pay price, why would this not be considered dishonest or unethical?

 

Usually we see this type of controversy when people back out of a deal because they got a higher offer. But in this case, it seems the owner just decided to disagree with the opinion offered by the buyer.

 

There is also an outlier here, and that has to do with appraisal code of conduct and ethics, and it's exactly situations like this that requires good faith negotiations to prevent things from going sideways. If the owner had listed the book with a set price, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

However, the owner was approached by someone who was appraising the value of the book using variables of grading and GPA data points. I keep harping on this point because I think their out from any wrongdoing was offering to pay FMV for the book if the seller decided to grade it himself.

 

Now of course, with the book being discovered bearing a 9.4 certified grade, that doesn't come into factor, except to demand he be restored what he would have gained by doing the deal at a 9.0 price?

 

It's confusing to me too, but to steamroll through and say this is a permanent HOS nomination without discussing or elaborating on these other aspects of the deal wouldn't be benefiting the community as a whole because it's a great incident that could be made an example for anyone reading on the "how to's" and taking notes on how to conduct themselves honourably and ethically.

[seanfingh]

perhaps a term HOS nomination might be more appropriate.

 

I don't know whether this is HOS worthy or not. My concern is that, if Soup1998 is going to come off the PL, that he do so under circumstances where the nominator has received all the facts, that all facts received are true, providing that the satisfaction and basis for removal from the PL is on the up and up.

 

As distasteful as I find Soup1998's conduct, I do not believe that he should be subject to any additional or different terms than are typically provided for removal from the PL.

[comix4fun]

 

There is also an outlier here, and that has to do with appraisal code of conduct and ethics, and it's exactly situations like this that requires good faith negotiations to prevent things from going sideways. If the owner had listed the book with a set price, then we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

However, the owner was approached by someone who was appraising the value of the book using variables of grading and GPA data points. I keep harping on this point because I think their out from any wrongdoing was offering to pay FMV for the book if the seller decided to grade it himself.

 

 

The appraisal code of ethics, which I deal with daily with the dozen plus appraisal firms my firm employs, has to do with being an independent third party valuation outside of the buying and selling process.

 

Once you are a buyer or seller in the process you cannot claim to be an independent appraiser as you have a vested interest in the outcome of the valuation.

 

No one was passing themselves off as an independent third party appraiser of this book. Everyone had their opinion of grade. It was always a buyer and seller relationship so the "appraisal code of ethics" has nothing to do with two parties, each with a vested interest given their opinions of value, one with book in hand, and the other looking at (what the seller admitted were) crappy scans.

 

The buyer may have offered, originally to pay FMV if the seller subbed himself. I can't find that post but let's assume that happened. Once the seller rejected that proposal, offered a straight up raw sales price, that was accepted all prior negotiations and offers are invalid and no longer exist. The seller could have taken that offer, but he didn't. He made another offer, one that was accepted.

 

Instead of attempting to renegotiate he decided to say the book was "pressed, graded and sold" immediately after as a means to cut off discussion because the book was purportedly "GONE". If it turns out he still has the book, that this is the same book, then he chose to lie. Chose that path as an adult who had two clear paths to take. This is what was chosen.

 

 

[comicwiz]

No one was passing themselves off as an independent third party appraiser of this book. Everyone had their opinion of grade. It was always a buyer and seller relationship so the "appraisal code of ethics" has nothing to do with two parties, each with a vested interest given their opinions of value, one with book in hand, and the other looking at (what the seller admitted were) crappy scans.

 

I used this in the context of explaining how the selling of this item required a starting point, and how it was achieved. Again, if this was a marketplace listing with a set price, we wouldn't be having this discussion. WTB and soliciting boardie's from PGM threads are always tricky because it requires striking that balance between the buyer/sellers expectations.

 

I meant to ask earlier - is the registry submission the reason why people think he still has it? I mean being dishonest with a registry entry for a book which may no longer be in a persons possession wouldn't be cool, but certainly wouldn't be the worst to come of all this. I may have missed this, but was there any other proof he still has it?

[seanfingh]

No one was passing themselves off as an independent third party appraiser of this book. Everyone had their opinion of grade. It was always a buyer and seller relationship so the "appraisal code of ethics" has nothing to do with two parties, each with a vested interest given their opinions of value, one with book in hand, and the other looking at (what the seller admitted were) crappy scans.

 

I used this in the context of explaining how the selling of this item required a starting point, and how it was achieved. Again, if this was a marketplace listing with a set price, we wouldn't be having this discussion. WTB and soliciting boardie's from PGM threads are always tricky because it requires striking that balance between the buyer/sellers expectations.

 

I meant to ask earlier - is the registry submission the reason why people think he still has it? I mean being dishonest with a registry entry for a book which may no longer be in a persons possession wouldn't be cool, but certainly wouldn't be the worst to come of all this. I may have missed this, but was there any other proof he still has it?

 

Nope. Radio silence from Soup1998 has been deafening.

[comix4fun]

No one was passing themselves off as an independent third party appraiser of this book. Everyone had their opinion of grade. It was always a buyer and seller relationship so the "appraisal code of ethics" has nothing to do with two parties, each with a vested interest given their opinions of value, one with book in hand, and the other looking at (what the seller admitted were) crappy scans.

 

I used this in the context of explaining how the selling of this item required a starting point, and how it was achieved. Again, if this was a marketplace listing with a set price, we wouldn't be having this discussion. WTB and soliciting boardie's from PGM threads are always tricky because it requires striking that balance between the buyer/sellers expectations.

 

I meant to ask earlier - is the registry submission the reason why people think he still has it? I mean being dishonest with a registry entry for a book which may no longer be in a persons possession wouldn't be the worst to come of all this, but is there any other proof he still has it?

 

 

We've asked that question. It's fallen on deaf ears so far.

 

All we know is that back in September, Soup told Anfield that the book was no longer available that it had been pressed, graded and sold.

 

Then he got called out, flipped this forum the bird, and walked away.

 

Then this copy is graded on October 1, meaning it would not be in the owners hands for at least a week or more after grading. Then it's in his registry on October 15th. The cert number was never listed and sold on any site that GPA tracks.

 

 

Then he arrived here, now, wanting to sell and buy again and wanting off the list, and told this forum that the book had been pressed, graded, and sold and mentioned that he couldn't call up the auction because "feebay" doesn't have records back that far. Once again intimating that he sold the book and sold it on Ebay.

 

GPA tracks Ebay, and this cert number was never sold on Ebay according to GPA. They have no record of it at all.

 

Now a screen shot of his registry is posted here. To some his registry is obscured but the book is still there.

 

The law is as black letter as it gets. There's no leeway here. If he sold that book for more than his contract with Anfield, then he needs to prove the sale price and he owes Anfield the profit he made off of the breach (the dollars in excess of $700 contract price) , or if he still has the book and owes Anfield a completed deal for the book in question at the agreed upon price.

 

Market conditions, subsequent facts, and details outside of the bounds of the contract do not alter, in the least, the responsibilities of each party to perform as they agreed.

 

Take away all of those details and everyone should be really concerned regarding what we were told and what was the truth.

 

[comicwiz]

There is a handle on eBay that uses the exact same name, but is NARU and hasn't listed anything since 02. I also tried reading the metadata on those scans to see if I could get a created date, but the info was likely stripped when they were uploaded to the registry.

[comicwiz]

I have to admit, reading and seeing this pattern of lying is concerning. I think a term HOS is a non-starter unless he comes here to answer to what's happened.

[JazzMan]

[Anfield Fox]

I apologize if I haven't followed the timeline, or for not placing names to the aliases, but something isn't clear to me.

 

The part I'm not getting is during the PM exchange, why was the verdict reached that it would only hit a 9.0?

 

I'm looking at that point in the PM where there might have been some disagreement over what the book could get if pressed, which could also make a big difference in the value of the raw book.

 

It seems to me that steering the discussion in the direction that what the owner paid ($675 - and based on the suggested 9.0 grade) meant the owner might have overpaid.

 

So if the owner didn't complete the deal, seeing it in a 9.4 holder seems like the 9.0 suggestion was probably why they didn't want to sell the book at a break even price.

 

The book was posted in the PGM section. There were many replies and the vast majority had this book between 9.0 and 9.2. The book is then pressed and CGC give it a 9.4.

 

I come to an agreement that's HIGHER than the CGC price for a 9.0 on a raw, ungraded book that many people were calling a 9.0/9.2 and you think it's unethical?

 

Only a few weeks ago someone on the boards sold a book as a 7.0. CGC graded the book a 9.0. Does the owner of the 9.0 owe the seller a back payment? Because that's what your posts are suggesting.

[comicwiz]

I apologize if I haven't followed the timeline, or for not placing names to the aliases, but something isn't clear to me.

 

The part I'm not getting is during the PM exchange, why was the verdict reached that it would only hit a 9.0?

 

I'm looking at that point in the PM where there might have been some disagreement over what the book could get if pressed, which could also make a big difference in the value of the raw book.

 

It seems to me that steering the discussion in the direction that what the owner paid ($675 - and based on the suggested 9.0 grade) meant the owner might have overpaid.

 

So if the owner didn't complete the deal, seeing it in a 9.4 holder seems like the 9.0 suggestion was probably why they didn't want to sell the book at a break even price.

 

The book was posted in the PGM section. There were many replies and the vast majority had this book between 9.0 and 9.2. The book is then pressed and CGC give it a 9.4.

 

I come to an agreement that's HIGHER than the CGC price for a 9.0 on a raw, ungraded book that many people were calling a 9.0/9.2 and you think it's unethical?

 

Only a few weeks ago someone on the boards sold a book as a 7.0. CGC graded the book a 9.0. Does the owner of the 9.0 owe the seller a back payment? Because that's what your posts are suggesting.

 

I didn't get the part in Option 2 about wanting to be restored for the 9.4 certified value, when it was the 9.0 ungraded you had originally wanted to purchase.

 

I think at this point, it's your call anyway. Based on some information I've just read about this individual, I'm more inclined to consider HOS be the most appropriate way of dealing with this person.

[Anfield Fox]

Anyway, Soup opted for the refund. I've just given it to him.

 

He denies he still has the book. Wouldn't answer questions which i put to him to try resolve this another way. Now he's changed his story yet again by saying

 

The sale price was $719.25 (free shipping) but it was a direct sale via paypal not done through feebay.

 

When a few days ago he said it was through eBay.

 

So i lost out on $55 but that's ok if it stops just one more person having to deal with him and being misled.

 

Please put him back on the list per his request. I'll let you guys decide which list.

[seanfingh]

 

Wow. Another new story. I am shocked, I tell you, shocked.

[comicwiz]

Whatever list is decided, his privileges to post WTB's should also be revoked.

[HugeRosen]

Anyway, Soup opted for the refund. I've just given it to him.

 

He denies he still has the book. Wouldn't answer questions which i put to him to try resolve this another way. Now he's changed his story yet again by saying

 

The sale price was $719.25 (free shipping) but it was a direct sale via paypal not done through feebay.

 

When a few days ago he said it was through eBay.

 

So i lost out on $55 but that's ok if it stops just one more person having to deal with him and being misled.

 

Please put him back on the list per his request. I'll let you guys decide which list.

 

He could easily do a screenshot of his paypal transaction and post if that's true.

[comix4fun]

Anyway, Soup opted for the refund. I've just given it to him.

 

He denies he still has the book. Wouldn't answer questions which i put to him to try resolve this another way. Now he's changed his story yet again by saying

 

The sale price was $719.25 (free shipping) but it was a direct sale via paypal not done through feebay.

 

When a few days ago he said it was through eBay.

 

So i lost out on $55 but that's ok if it stops just one more person having to deal with him and being misled.

 

Please put him back on the list per his request. I'll let you guys decide which list.

 

 

 

 

At this point, I am inclined to believe that the only parts of the following that are true are the "pressed" and "graded" parts.

 

Again, the book was pressed, graded and sold for around $730ish. It has been past the 90 day mark so I don't have anymore history in feebay.

 

 

Reading what he just told Matt above and what he posted just before does anyone have any doubt as to what we are dealing with here?

[Bosco685]

Anyway, Soup opted for the refund. I've just given it to him.

 

He denies he still has the book. Wouldn't answer questions which i put to him to try resolve this another way. Now he's changed his story yet again by saying

 

The sale price was $719.25 (free shipping) but it was a direct sale via paypal not done through feebay.

 

When a few days ago he said it was through eBay.

 

So i lost out on $55 but that's ok if it stops just one more person having to deal with him and being misled.

 

Please put him back on the list per his request. I'll let you guys decide which list.

 

Well, if it is going to be HOS, it is going to require a board vote. But is lying the grounds for HOS recommendation?

 

I do think it is wrong what the seller did (or failed to do). And it has become very clear there was misinformation involved. But is that a Probation List activity since it is a first event, or a HOS situation because any lying is not tolerated?

 

My concern is if lying is what leads to HOS recommendation, be ready for the onslaught of other cases that may occur. Especially if a seller offers a book at a certain price and they state the price is due to what they paid - it is discovered through some Ebay/Heritage/Comiclink research they lied and paid less - and now a buyer feels like they were not told the facts when making a buying decision.

[bababooey]

I put him back on the PL list, if there's a HOS vote it can be changed.