Manufactured Gold

[Foolkiller]

wow. 144 new posts.

[ciorac]

wow. 144 new posts.

 

Not sure I would categorize them as "new"...

[Aman619]

Are you with the Puritan Opposition On Pressings Outrageous Opportunists or

are you from the Blue Labels Over-power Weak Moral Ethics camp?

 

this gets my vote for Post Of The Day! SUms it up nicely...

[codfish]

1. I am a NOD member but I do not think I am superior or on higher moral ground than anyone else.

 

2. Being on NOD for me is about trying to get disclosure to be a standard. That does not mean that I think this industry is riddled with dishonesty. I tend to have faith in people until they screw me but yet I still try to be careful in transactions ... especially online. Not that I think that people are maliciously doing something but because I know that not everyone understands what may be important to me in my collecting or they are simply not very knowledgeable about grading, etc.

 

3. I think the importance of the NOD Gallery is not about whether there is or isn't something fishy going on at CGC or whether or not the books have certain, or any, any work done to them. It is important because it shows people they need to be on their toes even for graded books. There COULD be something hiding behind that label that certain collectors simply do not want ... regardless of whether or not another segment of the community thinks it is not restoration, etc. The gallery makes us ask questions and that is good because getting whatever it is out means it is not festering deep inside.

 

4. I am tired of people trying to paint NOD with a negative brush. NOD is not supposed to be about bashing CGC and its forum members. It is not a mantle to hide behind or higher ground to stand on. It is about trying to be a voice for collectors. It is about being up front about the history of books so that buyers can make an informed decision. Through this I think it could act as a check on the elements in this industry that people don't like

 

I think it is too bad that more people do not join and help it become a stronger voice because the comics industry is controlled by so few people and they seem to be able to get changes that cost us collectors money while fattening their pockets. Added to that the more diverse voices there are the better NOD will be for it.

 

I don't know it is just such a disheartening thing this argument because I think both sides have done and said lots of bad things about the other and it has polarized things way to much. NOD should not be considered a bad thing just as not every grade bump or big dealer out there is some huckster trying to wheedle your cash out of your pocket.

 

I just don't know. I want to help make things civil and rational but .....

[adamstrange]

wow. 144 new posts.

 

Not sure I would categorize them as "new"...

 

We're environmentally conscious! We re-cycle everything!

[Red Hook]

How does a balloon knot such as yourself not get a strike?

 

[Red Hook]

Now, now, you are becoming guilty of what you criticize.

 

Sorry, Bob, but that train left the station a looong time ago.

[Foolkiller]

It's not the NOD that is doing this. It's Mark. The NOD's "Gallery of Disclosure" is supposed to be just for books that have been proven to have some work done to them. From what I saw of Mark's post to Richard, Mark was going to add Richard's books to the Gallery of Disclosure even though nothing had been done to them. Just the pure fact that the books got upgraded was enough to get added to the Gallery, apparently. And this isn't even something that the NOD addresses in its guidelines, either. From my reading of NOD guidelines, NOD members are not required to disclose that a book used to be a different CGC grade as long as the book wasn't "enhanced." Mark just seems to want to impose his personal preference for disclosure of prior CGC grades onto the NOD (or in this case, he wants to impose it on a dealer who is not even a member of the NOD), without the rest of the NOD voting on it or approving it, I presume. And more annoyingly, wants to call out a dealer who has a much longer and distinguished track record in this hobby than he does in order to advance his personal agenda. This is the kind of thing that I would have hoped the other, more reasonable NOD committee members would have frowned upon. Am I wrong about that? If so, then I do have a problem with the NOD acting like a bully to pressure other dealers to do what they want.

 

Actually, I will chime in. What you say hits on something I don't think the NOD has taken into account. There are dealers out there who are honest, do disclose as a regular course of business, and do treat their customers with care and respect. These dealers don't feel the NOD is offering anything above what they (the dealers) already offer themselves. But the NOD does seem to have an air of superiority about itself (rightly or wrongly perceived) that the dealers don't want to have any part of. Speaking for myself, whether you like me or not, none of you can find a case where I deceived anyone. But the whole point of my anecdote was that you could in the future if that's what you CHOOSE to believe. And most of you who would choose that are NOD members.

 

Speaking as a newer member of NOD... I chose to join because of my active and vocal stance that I don't believe pressing to be restoration. BUT... I will disclose it and if others won't disclose it I'm not about to hide behind a membership and pass judgement. I just want the people I would deal with to know my ethics in the hobby. I'm not speaking for any other members but myself. I do believe that overall, it is a good organization with the right intentions but I guess I'm too far removed from the convention scene and to get a taste of the melodrama that can ensue... I can see it in this thread.. and that's bad enough. I think people are intelligent enough to make a choice on who they would deal with in this hobby and many people are aware of the practices of others. I don't see NOD as an organization that is policing the hobby, but one that is trying to better it thru education and awareness. It is wrong if personal agendas and egos come in...that derails the entire premise..to me anyways.

 

Well said, and if all were like you I think NOD and all it is supposed to stand for would be roundly supported by those of us who have held back.

 

As Richard noted, if education and awareness were #1, you'd have far more people endorsing and joining it.

 

We all know that Zaid and I have some great differences of opinion. The whole organization is structured with the reverse emphasis that I think should be made. The NOD has Mark Zaid as its most vocal spokesperson, who's fast becoming a polarizing figure in the hobby -- kind of like our Hillary Clinton -- some people love him -- others hate him with a passion. Ultimately, until the NOD, at least perception wise, becomes a greater entity than Zaid and what others associate as his "agenda", it will be hard to separate the two.

[esquirecomics]

I think you just strengthened my cause.

 

No...you're just whining again about the NOD. First "panic and hysteria" and now "entitlement"...are there any other qualifiers you'd like to falsely interject?

 

Seriously, you where one of the proponents of people actually doing something, anything, concerning their issues in the hobby other than just posting on a Forum. People have actually taken action and now all you can do is slam them. Looks as if you're the one doing nothing but arguing on a Forum...

 

Jim

 

It's not the NOD that is doing this. It's Mark. The NOD's "Gallery of Disclosure" is supposed to be just for books that have been proven to have some work done to them. From what I saw of Mark's post to Richard, Mark was going to add Richard's books to the Gallery of Disclosure even though nothing had been done to them. Just the pure fact that the books got upgraded was enough to get added to the Gallery, apparently. And this isn't even something that the NOD addresses in its guidelines, either. From my reading of NOD guidelines, NOD members are not required to disclose that a book used to be a different CGC grade as long as the book wasn't "enhanced." Mark just seems to want to impose his personal preference for disclosure of prior CGC grades onto the NOD (or in this case, he wants to impose it on a dealer who is not even a member of the NOD), without the rest of the NOD voting on it or approving it, I presume. And more annoyingly, wants to call out a dealer who has a much longer and distinguished track record in this hobby than he does in order to advance his personal agenda. This is the kind of thing that I would have hoped the other, more reasonable NOD committee members would have frowned upon. Am I wrong about that? If so, then I do have a problem with the NOD acting like a bully to pressure other dealers to do what they want.

 

Really? Where did I ever say Richard's books would end up in the NOD's Gallery of Disclosure? Richard was the one, in fact, who said he had no problem with disclosing the info anyway.

 

Where have I ever sought to impose NOD views, or my own, on any non-NOD member? Point to specifics.

 

Have I offered my opinion on matters? Yes. Have I advocated my opinon in writing? Yes. Do I have strong opinions on certain topics? Yes.

 

Let's see. Does Scott offer his opinion on matters? Yes. Has Scott advocated his opinion in writing? Yes. Does Scott have strong opinions on certain topics? Yes.

 

 

In some ways I am actually flattered by all these attacks. You and several others accord me far greater status and power in the NOD than I actually have. I am one member among dozens. I am one of three Committee members. There is nothing I have ever done within the NOD that has not been sanctioned by either the Committee acting within its voted upon authority or the organization as a whole. The NOD is a very democratically run organization, but by all means keep promoting me as dictator. It only draws attention to the NOD and yourself.

[esquirecomics]

We all know that Zaid and I have some great differences of opinion. The whole organization is structured with the reverse emphasis that I think should be made. The NOD has Mark Zaid as its most vocal spokesperson, who's fast becoming a polarizing figure in the hobby -- kind of like our Hillary Clinton -- some people love him -- others hate him with a passion. Ultimately, until the NOD, at least perception wise, becomes a greater entity than Zaid and what others associate as his "agenda", it will be hard to separate the two.

 

Well it is at least nice to know it is acknowledged that there are some people out there who love me.

 

I wish for once, and I am not necessarily directing this at you Brian (just using your post and comment), that someone would identify what exactly my "agenda" is. Oh I know what some of you guys think my agenda might be, but I have never heard or read anyone actually able to demonstrate some evidence supporting their premise of what my "agenda" is.

 

Apparently there is someone in my "circle" telling Scott and others that I am speaking out of turn about him and/or others, that is if you believe this allegation to be true. But then why hasn't someone come forward to reveal my diabolical secret plans to run the comic book world? No recounting of first-hand conversations. No dissemination of e-mails. Yet we all know that it is impossible for egotisical people such as apparently myself to keep our hobby domination plans to ourselves. So, what's up? Am I just that darn good!

 

Of course if the perceived "'agenda" is for collectors/investors to be educated and have the most information possible in order to reach an informed decision, and that pedigree designations should be retained for historical posterity, I am guilty as charged!

[Foolkiller]

We all know that Zaid and I have some great differences of opinion. The whole organization is structured with the reverse emphasis that I think should be made. The NOD has Mark Zaid as its most vocal spokesperson, who's fast becoming a polarizing figure in the hobby -- kind of like our Hillary Clinton -- some people love him -- others hate him with a passion. Ultimately, until the NOD, at least perception wise, becomes a greater entity than Zaid and what others associate as his "agenda", it will be hard to separate the two.

 

Well it is at least nice to know it is acknowledged that there are some people out there who love me.

 

I wish for once, and I am not necessarily directing this at you Brian (just using your post and comment), that someone would identify what exactly my "agenda" is. Oh I know what some of you guys think my agenda might be, but I have never heard or read anyone actually able to demonstrate some evidence supporting their premise of what my "agenda" is.

 

Apparently there is someone in my "circle" telling Scott and others that I am speaking out of turn about him and/or others, that is if you believe this allegation to be true. But then why hasn't someone come forward to reveal my diabolical secret plans to run the comic book world? No recounting of first-hand conversations. No dissemination of e-mails. Yet we all know that it is impossible for egotisical people such as apparently myself to keep our hobby domination plans to ourselves. So, what's up? Am I just that darn good!

 

Of course if the perceived "'agenda" is for collectors/investors to be educated and have the most information possible in order to reach an informed decision, and that pedigree designations should be retained for historical posterity, I am guilty as charged!

 

Mark -- in this format, it's impossible to debate the truth or not of what your "agenda" may be. You would simply deny it, and like most agendas, as you well know from your career in government suits, they are often hidden.

 

The whole point is that the most subversive agendas are never easy to identify and point to the press conference where someone announced exactly what it was.

 

What I will say is this is -- I think there are all sorts of thoughts about your agenda, from the conflict of your position as a dealer who is trying to use the NOD as a means to position yourself in the marketplace, to the need to use it as a platform to serve your ego, to go on the offensive against other dealers as a business move to separate yourself from the competition because you need a distinguishing feature for yourself amongst the already established dealers -- to the fact that it's motivated by your need to feed your constant love of conspiracy theories that over spills from your job -- or simply to feed your need to put your face constantly in any spotlight you have an interest in.

 

I don't know how many of these are true or if they encompass all the ones I've ever heard -- but the fact remains as you also know, sometimes perception becomes the reality that everyone accepts as truth. At the end of the day Mark, my point is simply that you can't deny that you have a way of becoming a magnet for this sort of attention, and it isn't because you shrink from the spotlight. It's part of the reason why you are often maligned -- and since I don't expect you to be someone you are not, why you will always be so.

[garthgantu]

Speaking for myself, whether you like me or not, none of you can find a case where I deceived anyone. But the whole point of my anecdote was that you could in the future if that's what you CHOOSE to believe. And most of you who would choose that are NOD members.

 

Good for you! I've said this to several people. Nothing against NOD, but if I'm honest and i disclose everything about every book i sell already, why should i join? If you're an honest person and behave like one, you don't need any organization to put their seal of approval on you or pat you on the back for it. JMO.

 

Dee dee: Just to clarify...which part of Mr.Bedrock's point do you agree with? The part where he says the problem with the NoD is that it has the makings of a witch-hunt by virtue of some made-up criteria he's conjured on behalf of the NoD, suggesting the NoD would willy-nilly post the nonexistent before-and-after scans of Mr.Bedrock's CGC resubs as new examples of undisclosed clean-and/or-press jobs?

 

'Cause that's what he's implying... that the majority of folks ready to leap on any example of grade improvement as an example of the satanic clean-and/or-press activity are NoD members.

 

Which is simply dead wrong... he's twisted the defense of the NoD in this thread, and one of the principles on which the NoD is based (disclosure of pressing and cleaning), by several members (and I think even more non-members) and turned it completely around in your and probably others' heads.

 

This guy is good ...he may have a low number next to his nick, but this ain't his first rodeo...

[esquirecomics]

I don't know how many of these are true or if they encompass all the ones I've ever heard -- but the fact remains as you also know, sometimes perception becomes the reality that everyone accepts as truth. At the end of the day Mark, my point is simply that you can't deny that you have a way of becoming a magnet for this sort of attention, and it isn't because you shrink from the spotlight. It's part of the reason why you are often maligned -- and since I don't expect you to be someone you are not, why you will always be so.

 

Brian, a fair enough assessment. I respect your willingness to post a straightforward comment like this. There are certain personalities, and apparently I can count myself as one, that for some reason invoke the extremes of opinion and everywhere in between. Always been that way, probably always will.

 

I'll say this. Anyone who ever has any questions about my beliefs or "agendas", I am an open book and all you need to do is contact me. And if you are ever in the DC area, call me up and lets talk comics over a beer. Or better yet go visit Geppi's Entertainment Museum in Baltimore!

 

Now, lets get this thread back on the track it should be on.

 

Oh, and I would be remiss not to publicly state that none of the suggested agendas on your list are on the mark.

[THE_BEYONDER]

If you could seperate your position in the professional world from your position in this hobby for even a brief moment.....you might begin understand why people like myself will never join the NOD.

 

This isn't a courtroom. This isn't a political forum. It's a comic book message board. Your inability to check your 'status' at the door is one of the biggest obstacles the NOD is currently facing IMO.

[esquirecomics]

If you could seperate your position in the professional world from your position in this hobby for even a brief moment.....you might begin understand why people like myself will never join the NOD.

 

This isn't a courtroom. This isn't a political forum. It's a comic book message board. Your inability to check your 'status' at the door is one of the biggest obstacles the NOD is currently facing IMO.

 

And what makes you think I would want people like yourself even in the NOD? Sorry, you set yourself up for that one and couldn't resist. I can have fun too.

 

But seriously, your comment is appreciated. No doubt the leadership of the NOD will consider it.

 

BTW, consider joining the NOD on or about June 25, 2007. My Committee term expires then and perhaps my re-election, should I even choose to run again, can be defeated.

[DeeDee-migration]

Speaking for myself, whether you like me or not, none of you can find a case where I deceived anyone. But the whole point of my anecdote was that you could in the future if that's what you CHOOSE to believe. And most of you who would choose that are NOD members.

 

Good for you! I've said this to several people. Nothing against NOD, but if I'm honest and i disclose everything about every book i sell already, why should i join? If you're an honest person and behave like one, you don't need any organization to put their seal of approval on you or pat you on the back for it. JMO.

 

Dee dee: Just to clarify...which part of Mr.Bedrock's point do you agree with? The part where he says the problem with the NoD is that it has the makings of a witch-hunt by virtue of some made-up criteria he's conjured on behalf of the NoD, suggesting the NoD would willy-nilly post the nonexistent before-and-after scans of Mr.Bedrock's CGC resubs as new examples of undisclosed clean-and/or-press jobs?

 

'Cause that's what he's implying... that the majority of folks ready to leap on any example of grade improvement as an example of the satanic clean-and/or-press activity are NoD members.

 

Which is simply dead wrong... he's twisted the defense of the NoD in this thread, and one of the principles on which the NoD is based (disclosure of pressing and cleaning), by several members (and I think even more non-members) and turned it completely around in your and probably others' heads.

 

This guy is good ...he may have a low number next to his nick, but this ain't his first rodeo...

 

This was his post

 

Actually, I will chime in. What you say hits on something I don't think the NOD has taken into account. There are dealers out there who are honest, do disclose as a regular course of business, and do treat their customers with care and respect. These dealers don't feel the NOD is offering anything above what they (the dealers) already offer themselves. But the NOD does seem to have an air of superiority about itself (rightly or wrongly perceived) that the dealers don't want to have any part of. Speaking for myself, whether you like me or not, none of you can find a case where I deceived anyone. But the whole point of my anecdote was that you could in the future if that's what you CHOOSE to believe. And most of you who would choose that are NOD members.

 

I simply gave him props for the fact that he deals honestly with people no matter what. So do I. There are lots of honest sellers that aren't members of the NOD. I don't need NOD or anyone else to police me, I don't hide anything about the books i sell. Thats all I'm saying.

[garthgantu]

1. I am a NOD member but I do not think I am superior or on higher moral ground than anyone else.

 

2. Being on NOD for me is about trying to get disclosure to be a standard. That does not mean that I think this industry is riddled with dishonesty. I tend to have faith in people until they screw me but yet I still try to be careful in transactions ... especially online. Not that I think that people are maliciously doing something but because I know that not everyone understands what may be important to me in my collecting or they are simply not very knowledgeable about grading, etc.

 

3. I think the importance of the NOD Gallery is not about whether there is or isn't something fishy going on at CGC or whether or not the books have certain, or any, any work done to them. It is important because it shows people they need to be on their toes even for graded books. There COULD be something hiding behind that label that certain collectors simply do not want ... regardless of whether or not another segment of the community thinks it is not restoration, etc. The gallery makes us ask questions and that is good because getting whatever it is out means it is not festering deep inside.

 

4. I am tired of people trying to paint NOD with a negative brush. NOD is not supposed to be about bashing CGC and its forum members. It is not a mantle to hide behind or higher ground to stand on. It is about trying to be a voice for collectors. It is about being up front about the history of books so that buyers can make an informed decision. Through this I think it could act as a check on the elements in this industry that people don't like

 

I think it is too bad that more people do not join and help it become a stronger voice because the comics industry is controlled by so few people and they seem to be able to get changes that cost us collectors money while fattening their pockets. Added to that the more diverse voices there are the better NOD will be for it.

 

I don't know it is just such a disheartening thing this argument because I think both sides have done and said lots of bad things about the other and it has polarized things way to much. NOD should not be considered a bad thing just as not every grade bump or big dealer out there is some huckster trying to wheedle your cash out of your pocket.

 

I just don't know. I want to help make things civil and rational but .....

 

Well and cogently put, codfish. I think you're on the right track... and you can simplify the thought even further, IMO... there are quite a few on these boards whose knee-jerk reaction is to attack anything that smacks of any sort of threat to CGC and the gravy train it fuels. I mean any threat. Because of course there will be posts mocking this one - "you're suggesting the NoD is a threat to CGC? wahahah..." But just as a pit bull will take apart a kitten, the sycophants of which I speak will directly and very indirectly work quite hard to undermine the 'opposition' as quickly as possible.

 

It ranges from derailing discussions with personal attacks and baiting, to a dozen straight graemlin-only posts to put some to sleep to slight but steady changes of subject until a previously interesting and informative (and civil!) thread is just a pile of mush.

 

FWIW, take a look around - it's not the NoD members doing much, if any, of that bull*spoon*...just to stoop the level of generalizations for a moment

[DeeDee-migration]

Your inability to check your 'status' at the door is one of the biggest obstacles the NOD is currently facing IMO.

 

I thought the same thing a few pages back when someone, can't remember exactly who, said that "serious collectors" are people who spend 5 or 6 figures on a book without blinking... i disagree... serious collectors are people who take collecting seriously, regardless of the amount they spend on their books.

[qualitycomix]

Mark -- in this format, it's impossible to debate the truth or not of what your "agenda" may be. You would simply deny it, and like most agendas, as you well know from your career in government suits, they are often hidden.

 

The whole point is that the most subversive agendas are never easy to identify and point to the press conference where someone announced exactly what it was.

 

What I will say is this is -- I think there are all sorts of thoughts about your agenda, from the conflict of your position as a dealer who is trying to use the NOD as a means to position yourself in the marketplace, to the need to use it as a platform to serve your ego, to go on the offensive against other dealers as a business move to separate yourself from the competition because you need a distinguishing feature for yourself amongst the already established dealers -- to the fact that it's motivated by your need to feed your constant love of conspiracy theories that over spills from your job -- or simply to feed your need to put your face constantly in any spotlight you have an interest in.

 

I don't know how many of these are true or if they encompass all the ones I've ever heard -- but the fact remains as you also know, sometimes perception becomes the reality that everyone accepts as truth. At the end of the day Mark, my point is simply that you can't deny that you have a way of becoming a magnet for this sort of attention, and it isn't because you shrink from the spotlight. It's part of the reason why you are often maligned -- and since I don't expect you to be someone you are not, why you will always be so.

 

I'm going to be Mark's advocate here for a minute. Based on what I know about Mark, he has always fought for what he thinks is right. If it makes waves, so much the better. He is generally on the side of the little guy fighting against a bigger, more powerful adversary with far more resources than he - namely the US government. Maybe Mark toots his own horn some. I would too, if I were on MSNBC and Fox News as an expert legal analyst in my field. His motivations have come into question many times. He rubs some people the wrong way. As far as I'm concerned, his motives are pure. He likes to fight the good fight and his principles coincide with what the NOD stands for. Some see that as grandstanding. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. That's not for me to say. What I do know is that he's worked very hard to help the NOD and provide input as of all the committee members have into the NOD's growth.

 

As far as Mark being a polarizing figure, I understand that too. With Mark, there isn't a whole lot of gray area. It either is or it isn't. Either you like him or you don't and he doesn't care either way. That's how he's been able to get things done in Washington for so many years. Actually, it's probably one of the only ways to get things done there. But I'm no expert on political wranglings. Instead of viewing Mark as a ego-driven, gun-toting lawyer out to make a name for himself, maybe you can start to view him a little more realistically. Or, at the very least, realize that the NOD is much more than Mark Zaid. Mark's ideas (and mine) have been shot down so many times within the NOD, it's a wonder he (and I) are not riddled with bullet holes. It's a part of the evolution of the NOD, it's a committee, and all important matters are put to a vote of the membership anyways. Mark has a strong voice within the organization, but it's not the only voice, believe me.

[esquirecomics]

Your inability to check your 'status' at the door is one of the biggest obstacles the NOD is currently facing IMO.

 

I thought the same thing a few pages back when someone, can't remember exactly who, said that "serious collectors" are people who spend 5 or 6 figures on a book without blinking... i disagree... serious collectors are people who take collecting seriously, regardless of the amount they spend on their books.

 

Dee, how does that apply to me? I didn't say that?

 

I agree with you. The level of seriousness a collector may exert has nothing to do with money.