Manufactured Gold

[scottish]

.

 

Have a good night, all!

 

HepKat Red

 

Sorry, but this is freakin' hilarious!

[drbanner]

 

Have a good night, all!

 

HepKat Red

 

Is that a young Dr. Bruce Banner on the right!?!?

[Viscosity-migration]

 

 

 

 

[Arty]

No doubt ... and it sounds like MasterChief is locked and loaded and ready to keep 'em coming when the time is right ...

 

Unfortunately, I do not have posts ready to go at the push of a button. Wish I had. They take time to put together both textually and graphically, and the work is usually done when the wife's working or the boss isn't looking. So please bear with me.

 

That said, one thing I don't have to do at this stage, which can be quite laborious, is the investigative research. For the most part that work is complete – at least for the books I have currently catalogued.

 

If I could say just one thing: Anyone who believes the examples provided here within are just anomalies, or could not be representative of a population is, in my opinion, simply naïve or just plain uninformed. (That is a generalized statement intended for the audience as a whole. It is not aimed at any one person in particular.)

 

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

Those that thrive on due diligence and are in the business of conducting personalized research will bare witness, either publicly or privately, to these treatment events. It has happened, is currently happening, and will continue to happen until such time as change occurs.

 

In the mean time, I will continue with my study. Moreover, I will post more examples as time and the public demand signal permits...

 

--MC

 

What if 5% of slabbed Golden Age books sold through Heritage have been resubbed and received improved grades?

 

Why 5%

 

That has already happened for the Church/Mile High and San Francisco pedigrees.

[esquirecomics]

No doubt ... and it sounds like MasterChief is locked and loaded and ready to keep 'em coming when the time is right ...

 

Unfortunately, I do not have posts ready to go at the push of a button. Wish I had. They take time to put together both textually and graphically, and the work is usually done when the wife's working or the boss isn't looking. So please bear with me.

 

That said, one thing I don't have to do at this stage, which can be quite laborious, is the investigative research. For the most part that work is complete – at least for the books I have currently catalogued.

 

If I could say just one thing: Anyone who believes the examples provided here within are just anomalies, or could not be representative of a population is, in my opinion, simply naïve or just plain uninformed. (That is a generalized statement intended for the audience as a whole. It is not aimed at any one person in particular.)

 

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

Those that thrive on due diligence and are in the business of conducting personalized research will bare witness, either publicly or privately, to these treatment events. It has happened, is currently happening, and will continue to happen until such time as change occurs.

 

In the mean time, I will continue with my study. Moreover, I will post more examples as time and the public demand signal permits...

 

--MC

 

What if 5% of slabbed Golden Age books sold through Heritage have been resubbed and received improved grades?

 

Why 5%

 

That has already happened for the Church/Mile High and San Francisco pedigrees.

 

And that 5% is not just any old 5%.

 

Given the historical importance of these two pedigrees, and the distasteful (IMHO) need for profiteers to manipulate these particular books for their own personal gain, it really doesn't matter whether the overall # was 25% or 50%. This 5% figure is sufficient to generate alarm.

[Bullet123]

No doubt ... and it sounds like MasterChief is locked and loaded and ready to keep 'em coming when the time is right ...

 

Unfortunately, I do not have posts ready to go at the push of a button. Wish I had. They take time to put together both textually and graphically, and the work is usually done when the wife's working or the boss isn't looking. So please bear with me.

 

That said, one thing I don't have to do at this stage, which can be quite laborious, is the investigative research. For the most part that work is complete – at least for the books I have currently catalogued.

 

If I could say just one thing: Anyone who believes the examples provided here within are just anomalies, or could not be representative of a population is, in my opinion, simply naïve or just plain uninformed. (That is a generalized statement intended for the audience as a whole. It is not aimed at any one person in particular.)

 

While I do not think the examples you have shown are anywhere the whole iceberg, you make a statement that sounds like 1 out of 10 books out there have had this done to them. Hreitage alone has had over 150,000 auctions for books and you have come up with less than 10 concrete examples. Even if I give you the benefit and say that you have found 50 and just have not had time to post them, that still represents less than 3 one thousandths of 1 percent. So how can you make this statement?

 

Those that thrive on due diligence and are in the business of conducting personalized research will bare witness, either publicly or privately, to these treatment events. It has happened, is currently happening, and will continue to happen until such time as change occurs.

 

In the mean time, I will continue with my study. Moreover, I will post more examples as time and the public demand signal permits...

 

--MC

 

What if 5% of slabbed Golden Age books sold through Heritage have been resubbed and received improved grades?

 

Why 5%

 

That has already happened for the Church/Mile High and San Francisco pedigrees.

 

Arty,

 

Do you think that pre CGC, that the same amount of books as a % of books sold was improved upon, less than or more than that? I would submit the Nicholas Cage collection as an example. How many of those books (as a percentage of his collection) came back having some form of restoration such as color touch, cover clean, etc. There is a pre-CGC high grade collector who would make a good comparison. I would say that at least 5% of his books were "improved" upon.

[esquirecomics]

Arty,

 

Do you think that pre CGC, that the same amount of books as a % of books sold was improved upon, less than or more than that? I would submit the Nicholas Cage collection as an example. How many of those books (as a percentage of his collection) came back having some form of restoration such as color touch, cover clean, etc. There is a pre-CGC high grade collector who would make a good comparison. I would say that at least 5% of his books were "improved" upon.

 

This may be accurate, but I would state it is somewhat irrelevant. Those of us who do not believe there is a need to improve the books, or at least that if done it should be disclosed, do not make a distinction between pre-CGC days and post-CGC days. It is the conduct that is at issue.

 

Nevertheless, I think there are many people, myself included, who believe the existence of CGC has spawned a larger industry for the press (and resub) game that did not exist before.

[Arty]

Just to clarify only a small part of those pedigrees are slabbed and about 5% of them are resubs. That's 110+ books. (Don't know where you get that 1500)

 

105 of 2180 of slabbed Church (+/- a couple of books) and 10 of 103 of San Francisco books in my database have been resubbed with better grade.

 

I just thought it might be possible that same has happened to almost equal percentage of other slabbed GA? How many they have sold so far?

[Bullet123]

Arty,

 

Do you think that pre CGC, that the same amount of books as a % of books sold was improved upon, less than or more than that? I would submit the Nicholas Cage collection as an example. How many of those books (as a percentage of his collection) came back having some form of restoration such as color touch, cover clean, etc. There is a pre-CGC high grade collector who would make a good comparison. I would say that at least 5% of his books were "improved" upon.

 

This may be accurate, but I would state it is somewhat irrelevant. Those of us who do not believe there is a need to improve the books, or at least that if done it should be disclosed, do not make a distinction between pre-CGC days and post-CGC days. It is the conduct that is at issue.

 

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Nevertheless, I think there are many people, myself included, who believe the existence of CGC has spawned a larger industry for the press (and resub) game that did not exist before.

[esquirecomics]

Just to clarify only a small part of those pedigrees are slabbed and about 5% of them are resubs. That's 110+ books. (Don't know where you get that 1500)

 

105 of 2180 of slabbed Church (+/- a couple of books) and 10 of 103 of San Francisco books in my database have been resubbed with better grade.

 

 

 

I totally forgot your #s referred to slabbed books. I was taking a percentage of the entire two pedigree collections. I deleted my inaccurate comment above.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Robert, you and I really do not disagree on the fundamentals. Whether it is "relevant" or not of course depends on the context of the discussion.

 

I fully agree that the conduct that is at issue was occurring before either CGC or Heritage existed. Certainly, and I don't believe you disagree with this, the extent to which the conduct now exists is, or at least appears to be, far greater. Did either entity cause the conduct? No, certainly not (except that certainly CGC "caused" the resub game as we know it as that is strictly a slabbing phenomenon).

 

What CGC and Heritage has done is implicitly fueled, and at times indeed explicitly encouraged, the conduct.

 

Now, one can applaud that fact or condemn it, or maybe something in between.

 

The other isses you raise I also agree with, but I view them separately. I like the fact that CGC exists in general. I am very happy, as flawed as sometimes it might be due to human factors, that the restoration check exists. I commend and applaud Heritage for their hi-res scans and database. I can, therefore, understand that overall you, and no doubt others, feel these attributes outweigh the negatives and view the current situation as the best in years.

 

I think our difference might be is that I prefer not to view it as a "take it or leave it" scenario. I think there is much good here, and much bad. And I desire to continue addressing the bad while also not seeking to throw the baby out with the bath water and commend the good, all at the same time. I think the current climate can improve and be even better for us as collectors, especially on the HG and investment level.

[Bullet123]

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Robert, you and I really do not disagree on the fundamentals. Whether it is "relevant" or not of course depends on the context of the discussion.

 

I fully agree that the conduct that is at issue was occurring before either CGC or Heritage existed. Certainly, and I don't believe you disagree with this, the extent to which the conduct now exists is, or at least appears to be, far greater. Did either entity cause the conduct? No, certainly not (except that certainly CGC "caused" the resub game as we know it as that is strictly a slabbing phenomenon).

 

What CGC and Heritage has done is implicitly fueled, and at times indeed explicitly encouraged, the conduct.

 

Now, one can applaud that fact or condemn it, or maybe something in between.

 

The other isses you raise I also agree with, but I view them separately. I like the fact that CGC exists in general. I am very happy, as flawed as sometimes it might be due to human factors, that the restoration check exists. I commend and applaud Heritage for their hi-res scans and database. I can, therefore, understand that overall you, and no doubt others, feel these attributes outweigh the negatives and view the current situation as the best in years.

 

I think our difference might be is that I prefer not to view it as a "take it or leave it" scenario. I think there is much good here, and much bad. And I desire to continue addressing the bad while also not seeking to throw the baby out with the bath water and commend the good, all at the same time. I think the current climate can improve and be even better for us as collectors, especially on the HG and investment level.

 

 

Mark,

 

What I find odd is that if your side of the fence (I am painting with a broad brush here) really wanted things to change, instead of waiting until months or years after a Heritage auction to expose the "improvements" of a particular book, where the person that is harmed by the negative light that is shown on the book is the purchaser of said "improved" book, thereby reducing the perceived value of the book and souring a collectors experience. If you truly want the practice to stop, then you need to post the exposed book before the auction when it still belongs to the "improver", making it harder for him to turn an easy profit. When the margins of improvement dissapear, then the practice will slow down. (I do not think it will ever cease to exist) Also, keep in mind that pressing is not considered restoration and exposing the book before the auction is complete is the only true way to find out where the hobby as a whole stands on the subject. If books that are identified pre-auction still command good prices, then we will know where the hobby stands on this subject. If the books do poorly, then the pressing will slow down, and the hobby will be better for it. But trashing a book once it is in a collectors hands post auction only sours a fellow collectors experience and we are all the worse for it. I dinstinctly remember how you felt when you found out you had improved books in your inventory, you were not very happy about it. Had you known ahead of time about the book, based on what you have posted here in the past, you would not have paid as much or bid at all thereby reducing the profit the improver made on the "improved" book. That is the only way to slow down profiteers. Endless speculation as to who it is or how it is being done will not IMO slow it down one bit. It just puts fellow collectors such as Tim and myself at odds with people like you, red hook and filter when we all share the same common love for the hobby

[Red Hook]

Bullet, that's some of the dang silliest stuff I've ever read on the boards.

[Bullet123]

So you think its more effective to have controversy than change?

[Red Hook]

I'm simply saying your line of reasoning makes no sense. As a collector, I'd rather know late than not know at all. You seem to think differently. Making an issue of the timing of the revelations about these particular books is again, trying to divert attention from the real issues.

 

And I will say, that finding myself at odds with collectors like you and Tim on these issues is not a particular concern of mine, or anyone else's here, than I can see.

 

Controversy often leads to change. In case you hadn't noticed, the hobby isn't particularly good at self-policing.

[esquirecomics]

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Robert, you and I really do not disagree on the fundamentals. Whether it is "relevant" or not of course depends on the context of the discussion.

 

I fully agree that the conduct that is at issue was occurring before either CGC or Heritage existed. Certainly, and I don't believe you disagree with this, the extent to which the conduct now exists is, or at least appears to be, far greater. Did either entity cause the conduct? No, certainly not (except that certainly CGC "caused" the resub game as we know it as that is strictly a slabbing phenomenon).

 

What CGC and Heritage has done is implicitly fueled, and at times indeed explicitly encouraged, the conduct.

 

Now, one can applaud that fact or condemn it, or maybe something in between.

 

The other isses you raise I also agree with, but I view them separately. I like the fact that CGC exists in general. I am very happy, as flawed as sometimes it might be due to human factors, that the restoration check exists. I commend and applaud Heritage for their hi-res scans and database. I can, therefore, understand that overall you, and no doubt others, feel these attributes outweigh the negatives and view the current situation as the best in years.

 

I think our difference might be is that I prefer not to view it as a "take it or leave it" scenario. I think there is much good here, and much bad. And I desire to continue addressing the bad while also not seeking to throw the baby out with the bath water and commend the good, all at the same time. I think the current climate can improve and be even better for us as collectors, especially on the HG and investment level.

 

 

Mark,

 

What I find odd is that if your side of the fence (I am painting with a broad brush here) really wanted things to change, instead of waiting until months or years after a Heritage auction to expose the "improvements" of a particular book, where the person that is harmed by the negative light that is shown on the book is the purchaser of said "improved" book, thereby reducing the perceived value of the book and souring a collectors experience. If you truly want the practice to stop, then you need to post the exposed book before the auction when it still belongs to the "improver", making it harder for him to turn an easy profit. When the margins of improvement dissapear, then the practice will slow down. (I do not think it will ever cease to exist) Also, keep in mind that pressing is not considered restoration and exposing the book before the auction is complete is the only true way to find out where the hobby as a whole stands on the subject. If books that are identified pre-auction still command good prices, then we will know where the hobby stands on this subject. If the books do poorly, then the pressing will slow down, and the hobby will be better for it. But trashing a book once it is in a collectors hands post auction only sours a fellow collectors experience and we are all the worse for it. I dinstinctly remember how you felt when you found out you had improved books in your inventory, you were not very happy about it. Had you known ahead of time about the book, based on what you have posted here in the past, you would not have paid as much or bid at all thereby reducing the profit the improver made on the "improved" book. That is the only way to slow down profiteers. Endless speculation as to who it is or how it is being done will not IMO slow it down one bit. It just puts fellow collectors such as Tim and myself at odds with people like you, red hook and filter when we all share the same common love for the hobby

 

Robert, first, I am not sure to what extent I am at odds with either Tim or yourself, or that Tim is in agreement with your positions here. Nor am I stating I am in cohoots with either RedHook or Filter, though I am happy to be in the company of any of the four of you.

 

That said, I don't think anyone here supports promoting unfounded speculation, nor is the objective to cause harm to the investment quality of a collector's book. I would describe "trashing" as an inappropriate term for what is occurring. I have said repeatedly that my issue with pressing (and I certainly will not concede pressing is not restoration as I believe it is) specifically is far more of one of disclosure than value. My complaints when I found I had modified books in my collection was always relating to the lack of disclosure, though for sure my bid on that particular book could very well have been impacted. But that is not to say the value should be impacted. I leave that to the hobby to decide.

 

It is certainly far better, or at least timely, to try and address books currently up for sale than to examine those previously sold. But again since the effort is primarily one of disclosure and not in order to harm the sale price it really doesn't matter to me when it is done. I wish I had the time to undertake the type of scrutiny that others on the boards devote to the effort. I commend their dedication and skills.

 

In any event since so many books end up being reauctioned time after time, especially through Heritage, it is certainly worthwhile to examine past auctions. The bottom line is to ensure adequate information to a prospective buyer so that the individual can reach an informed decision.

 

Frankly, the issue regarding disclosure of pressing, resubbing, dry cleaning and the like is far more controversial to those who secretly do it because THEY are the ones scared of how the hobby may react. I am not scared at all. I say let the hobby decide rather than a few greedy individuals who are cowardly manipulating the hobby we love for their own personal profits.

[esquirecomics]

I'm simply saying your line of reasoning makes no sense. As a collector, I'd rather know late than not know at all. You seem to think differently. Making an issue of the timing of the revelations about these particular books is again, trying to divert attention from the real issues.

 

And I will say, that finding myself at odds with collectors like you and Tim on these issues is not a particular concern of mine, or anyone else's here, than I can see.

 

Controversy often leads to change. In case you hadn't noticed, the hobby isn't particularly good at self-policing.

 

And I would add, from a personal perspective, I certainly prefer to have the information in my possession even if it comes after my purchase and though I may not like what I find out. The truth is sometimes not what we want to hear, but I shall not hide from it with my head in the sand in order to turn a profit.

[Aman619]

as to timing, lets make the "improvers" TELL us which books will be improved BEFORE they go on sale as Bullet suggests! And-- oh!-- tell em to send us before and after scans too to save time. He's right. the time to point out which books have been improved is BEFORE they go on sale. duh! I like it!! Brilliant! : )

[Bullet123]

as to timing, lets make the "improvers" TELL us which books will be improved BEFORE they go on sale as Bullet suggests! And-- oh!-- tell em to send us before and after scans too to save time. He's right. the time to point out which books have been improved is BEFORE they go on sale. duh! I like it!! Brilliant! : )

 

Have you ever even bought a book from Heritage? My point is at least with Heritage you get a week and sometimes a month or more to do your homework which is better than anyone else to expose the "improvements" and make an educated decision as to whether the book is for you or not.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Robert, you and I really do not disagree on the fundamentals. Whether it is "relevant" or not of course depends on the context of the discussion.

 

I fully agree that the conduct that is at issue was occurring before either CGC or Heritage existed. Certainly, and I don't believe you disagree with this, the extent to which the conduct now exists is, or at least appears to be, far greater. Did either entity cause the conduct? No, certainly not (except that certainly CGC "caused" the resub game as we know it as that is strictly a slabbing phenomenon).

 

What CGC and Heritage has done is implicitly fueled, and at times indeed explicitly encouraged, the conduct.

 

Now, one can applaud that fact or condemn it, or maybe something in between.

 

The other isses you raise I also agree with, but I view them separately. I like the fact that CGC exists in general. I am very happy, as flawed as sometimes it might be due to human factors, that the restoration check exists. I commend and applaud Heritage for their hi-res scans and database. I can, therefore, understand that overall you, and no doubt others, feel these attributes outweigh the negatives and view the current situation as the best in years.

 

I think our difference might be is that I prefer not to view it as a "take it or leave it" scenario. I think there is much good here, and much bad. And I desire to continue addressing the bad while also not seeking to throw the baby out with the bath water and commend the good, all at the same time. I think the current climate can improve and be even better for us as collectors, especially on the HG and investment level.

 

 

Mark,

 

What I find odd is that if your side of the fence (I am painting with a broad brush here) really wanted things to change, instead of waiting until months or years after a Heritage auction to expose the "improvements" of a particular book, where the person that is harmed by the negative light that is shown on the book is the purchaser of said "improved" book, thereby reducing the perceived value of the book and souring a collectors experience. If you truly want the practice to stop, then you need to post the exposed book before the auction when it still belongs to the "improver", making it harder for him to turn an easy profit. When the margins of improvement dissapear, then the practice will slow down. (I do not think it will ever cease to exist) Also, keep in mind that pressing is not considered restoration and exposing the book before the auction is complete is the only true way to find out where the hobby as a whole stands on the subject. If books that are identified pre-auction still command good prices, then we will know where the hobby stands on this subject. If the books do poorly, then the pressing will slow down, and the hobby will be better for it. But trashing a book once it is in a collectors hands post auction only sours a fellow collectors experience and we are all the worse for it. I dinstinctly remember how you felt when you found out you had improved books in your inventory, you were not very happy about it. Had you known ahead of time about the book, based on what you have posted here in the past, you would not have paid as much or bid at all thereby reducing the profit the improver made on the "improved" book. That is the only way to slow down profiteers. Endless speculation as to who it is or how it is being done will not IMO slow it down one bit. It just puts fellow collectors such as Tim and myself at odds with people like you, red hook and filter when we all share the same common love for the hobby

 

Do your above comments have anything at all to do with anything more than the potential return on your 'investments'?

 

It sounds to me like you believed that pressed books would be completely undetectable in the future, and therefore felt them to be 'safe investments'.

 

As more & more pressed books are detected(through the use of scans), you have now come to realize that your own inventory could potentially appear in threads like this...thus impacting their resale value.

 

Am I close?