Manufactured Gold

[Red Hook]

That's not going to be a problem, because he and Tim can just keep selling them back and forth to each other (through Heritage of course) in ever-increasing increments of price and grade.

[Aman619]

as to timing, lets make the "improvers" TELL us which books will be improved BEFORE they go on sale as Bullet suggests! And-- oh!-- tell em to send us before and after scans too to save time. He's right. the time to point out which books have been improved is BEFORE they go on sale. duh! I like it!! Brilliant! : )

 

Have you ever even bought a book from Heritage? My point is at least with Heritage you get a week and sometimes a month or more to do your homework which is better than anyone else to expose the "improvements" and make an educated decision as to whether the book is for you or not.

 

But Bullet, thats all the posters here are trying to do! THE RESEARCH! I like the idea that some here take the time and efort to dig thru the books finding their former selves. And when they do, and post the info here, we are all free to extrapolate from the info as we choose. More information is better!

 

Some here will announce their opinions too. Some will loudy decry FOUL! But so what. Should we try to shut them up. or, just take their opinions and compare with our own, and make up our own minds... How is this any different than watching the news, or reading newspapers etc? Or anything else. We listen to facts, or "facts" weight the pros and cons, and make our decisions accordingly.

 

I can handle some negativity here. I can be skeptical too when (IMO) they go too far. But I WANT to see and hear what others think is going on. And if its bad, Id like to help stop it. Dont you?

[Bullet123]

Mark, it is relevant. The difference between you and I is not that we like/dislike the "improvemnent" game on comics. Its the fact that people on these boards pretend like this only happened after CGC was born or that it has proliferated since CGC became about. At least from what I have seen, whenever there has been a dollar to be made in this hobby, people have taken advantage of it. The difference now is, with CGC on the scene, I now have someone to do restoration check for me, I have Heritage's large Hi-res scans to decide for myself by comparison if a book might have been improved upon, thereby as a high grade collector putting me in the best shape I have been in for at least twenty years. I understand your point that you do not like the game, neither do I. But to say that CGC and Heritage are the cause of it is like saying the weatherman is the cause of the weather. He does not make the weather, he simply reports on it in his expert opinion based on the facts at hand

 

Robert, you and I really do not disagree on the fundamentals. Whether it is "relevant" or not of course depends on the context of the discussion.

 

I fully agree that the conduct that is at issue was occurring before either CGC or Heritage existed. Certainly, and I don't believe you disagree with this, the extent to which the conduct now exists is, or at least appears to be, far greater. Did either entity cause the conduct? No, certainly not (except that certainly CGC "caused" the resub game as we know it as that is strictly a slabbing phenomenon).

 

What CGC and Heritage has done is implicitly fueled, and at times indeed explicitly encouraged, the conduct.

 

Now, one can applaud that fact or condemn it, or maybe something in between.

 

The other isses you raise I also agree with, but I view them separately. I like the fact that CGC exists in general. I am very happy, as flawed as sometimes it might be due to human factors, that the restoration check exists. I commend and applaud Heritage for their hi-res scans and database. I can, therefore, understand that overall you, and no doubt others, feel these attributes outweigh the negatives and view the current situation as the best in years.

 

I think our difference might be is that I prefer not to view it as a "take it or leave it" scenario. I think there is much good here, and much bad. And I desire to continue addressing the bad while also not seeking to throw the baby out with the bath water and commend the good, all at the same time. I think the current climate can improve and be even better for us as collectors, especially on the HG and investment level.

 

 

Mark,

 

What I find odd is that if your side of the fence (I am painting with a broad brush here) really wanted things to change, instead of waiting until months or years after a Heritage auction to expose the "improvements" of a particular book, where the person that is harmed by the negative light that is shown on the book is the purchaser of said "improved" book, thereby reducing the perceived value of the book and souring a collectors experience. If you truly want the practice to stop, then you need to post the exposed book before the auction when it still belongs to the "improver", making it harder for him to turn an easy profit. When the margins of improvement dissapear, then the practice will slow down. (I do not think it will ever cease to exist) Also, keep in mind that pressing is not considered restoration and exposing the book before the auction is complete is the only true way to find out where the hobby as a whole stands on the subject. If books that are identified pre-auction still command good prices, then we will know where the hobby stands on this subject. If the books do poorly, then the pressing will slow down, and the hobby will be better for it. But trashing a book once it is in a collectors hands post auction only sours a fellow collectors experience and we are all the worse for it. I dinstinctly remember how you felt when you found out you had improved books in your inventory, you were not very happy about it. Had you known ahead of time about the book, based on what you have posted here in the past, you would not have paid as much or bid at all thereby reducing the profit the improver made on the "improved" book. That is the only way to slow down profiteers. Endless speculation as to who it is or how it is being done will not IMO slow it down one bit. It just puts fellow collectors such as Tim and myself at odds with people like you, red hook and filter when we all share the same common love for the hobby

 

Do your above comments have anything at all to do with anything more than the potential return on your 'investments'?

 

It sounds to me like you believed that pressed books would be completely undetectable in the future, and therefore felt them to be 'safe investments'.

 

As more & more pressed books are detected(through the use of scans), you have now come to realize that your own inventory could potentially appear in threads like this...thus impacting their resale value.

 

Am I close?

 

Not even the same Solar system. If you have read any of my posts in the past, I assume that all of my high grade books have been "potentialized" so therefore I can not be dissapointed when I find out they were something else in a previous life. I am a collector. If you saw what I have in my collection you would understand this. In my previous hobby, I spent 15 years putting together a collection only to donate that collection to a museum so where is the investment potential in that?

[tth2]

tth2 and others:

 

it is my opinion that you are undermining this thread and making it difficult to observe

the undected restoration etc. of these crack and re-sub books that MasterChief etc. are posting.

 

we don't need you to tell us that some of the claims people make on here are speculation, some circumstantial and some factual.

 

but since you have minorly insulted me (by trying to tell me what to believe etc.), thank you.

i realize you may be a nice/good guy, but my impression after reading this thread is that either you are playing devil's advocate (which i and others don't need), or you are close to retarded.

 

please go away, i am trying to observe the greed etc. in this hobby.

 

i am trying to be a savvy buyer, learning which dealers have shady 'goings on' , which books to stay away from, and which grading companies are unable to detect restoration on high profile books that have been submitted numerous times and had numerous grades and multiple sales in short periods of time.

 

anyway, please, please, please do not hijack the other manufactured gold thread...

DNAgent, regarding hijacking, perhaps you better revisit the beginning of this thread and then revisit your reading comprehension skills. When this thread was Master Chief posting his finds, I didn't say a thing (except one correction). I thought this thread was a good thing, because more factual information is always a good thing. When others decided to take those findings and launch this thread on a different tangent (i.e., hijacked) by posting their accusations and unfounded speculation in this thread, I wasn't going to let those accusations and speculations go unchallenged. End of story.

 

If you want to keep the new manufactured gold thread "clean", then I would suggest you tell your cohorts to keep it factual there too. It's that simple.

[Viscosity-migration]

 

 

[tth2]

That's not going to be a problem, because he and Tim can just keep selling them back and forth to each other (through Heritage of course) in ever-increasing increments of price and grade.

Wow, so now you're accusing me and Bullet of playing the crack, press and resub game and manipulating the market? You have really sunk to some new depths.

[Ze-man]

That's not going to be a problem, because he and Tim can just keep selling them back and forth to each other (through Heritage of course) in ever-increasing increments of price and grade.

Wow, so now you're accusing me and Bullet of playing the crack, press and resub game and manipulating the market? You have really sunk to some new depths.

 

 

Actually Tim, I believe that was a joke. Perhaps not funny to you. Anyone reading it can see that he was poking you with a stick. A joke about you and bullet in a Heritage based theme. Nothing more.

 

I wont tell you how to post Tim, but I will ask you to step back and rethink how best to redirect your opinions to better serve your purpose. I think you are standing to close to the subject to be objective. This thread will still be here. Take a break, read a comic. See what else unfolds. If new facts present themselves, which I think they will. Address those as they surface

 

This part of the thread has sailed its course, and is in dry dock for repairs. I honestly dont know what is left to be said. It now seems to just be personal.

 

Well, I guess I did kinda tell you how to post, oops

 

 

 

 

 

Ze-

[tth2]

Hey Kenny, I thought this thread was done and dusted too. October and I made some sick jokes, which we've since deleted, and I thought it was all done. Then DNAgent posts saying I must be retarded, starting things downhill again. Once upon a time I would have automatically assumed Brad's post was a joke, but now who knows?

[rjpb]

More Comics!

 

Less recriminations

 

 

Most reading this thread can see where this all points to without a compass.

 

 

One of the ironies here is that the demand for CGC's evaluation of comics was in some part a result of dealer X's 8.5 becoming dealer Y's 9.4, often with no manipulation at all.

[Red Hook]

Hey Kenny, I thought this thread was done and dusted too. October and I made some sick jokes, which we've since deleted, and I thought it was all done. Then DNAgent posts saying I must be retarded, starting things downhill again. Once upon a time I would have automatically assumed Brad's post was a joke, but now who knows?

 

Uh....it was a joke.

[MasterChief]

A friend and I were discussing the history of a particular book he had tracked for quite a while. Painting a picture of its chronological movement from venue to venue, and grade incarnation to grade incarnation, he closed his story on a consequential note: "I feel sorry for the current owner", pausing just for a second, he then stressed, "That's why you need to do your homework on these high end books. You could really get burned!"

 

***************

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #37 (Pennsylvania)

 

The first publicly recorded auction of this Pennsylvania copy of Marvel Mystery Comics #37 took place on December 7, 2002. Advertised with special emphasis on its Hitler cover and the ability of Timely's to sell at multiples of guide, the Very Fine (8.0) copy was listed with an Overstreet book value of $1,080. By the auction's close, the item did not sell. It failed to receive bids equal to or greater than the reserve amount set by the consignor.

 

Eleven months later the same book returned to the auctioning block. There was no change in the copy's appearance or label; and for the most part, the lot description was the same. However, the noted Overstreet value saw a slight increase and was identified as being $1,144. Once more, the auction met with the same result. Five bidders fell short of the minimum bid and the item remained unsold.   

 

On April 4, 2004 – five months after the second auction – the book returned for a third and final try. This time the book was completely different. Gone was the old blue universal label with its Very Fine (8.0) grade notation, replaced by a new label and branded with a census-topping grade of Near Mint (9.4). With the book described in part as being in an "extremely uncommon grade" and the "highest graded copy to date", it had no problem selling. Eight bidders drove the successful bid to $8,912. More than 4X its pre-auction estimate.

 

The treated Pennsylvania copy of Marvel Mystery Comics #37 tops the CGC census. The next highest grade is one lone copy at the 8.5 position; just half a grade from where the original Pennsylvania used to be.

 

Certification/Resale Provenance:

 

 

Resource Links:

 

Marvel Mystery Comics #37 (Pennsylvania) (8.5) 1st Auction

Marvel Mystery Comics #37 (Pennsylvania) (8.5) 2nd Auction

Marvel Mystery Comics #37 (Pennsylvania) (9.4) 3rd Auction

 

Images:

 

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

"I feel sorry for the current owner", pausing just for a second, he then stressed, "That's why you need to do your homework on these high end books. You could really get burned!"

 

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

Paying premiums for slabbed high grade nowadays is just a crapshoot.

 

And I don't gamble.

[Red Hook]

It's kind of like getting a hot stock tip from your brother-in-law....by the time you hear the stock, it's too late. It's already long-achieved whatever peak it will achieve, and you're catching it on the start of the downslide.

[Harvey Dude]

MasterChief. Nice write-up.

 

The MMC #37 had quite a grade jump. I think the 9.4 was a generous grade given the tear

and other flaws that were not removed by pressing. I also think that was a very nice looking

book at 8.0.

[Harvey Dude]

"I feel sorry for the current owner", pausing just for a second, he then stressed,

"That's why you need to do your homework on these high end books. You could really get burned!"

 

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

Certainly True. Since the older scans were available, I hope the buyer of the MMC #37 did his/her

homework and is satisfied with the amount that was paid on a formerly graded 8.0 book.

[batman_fan]

at almost 9K, I certainly wouldn't be happy with it ...

[burntboy]

MasterChief. Nice write-up.

 

The MMC #37 had quite a grade jump. I think the 9.4 was a generous grade given the tear

and other flaws that were not removed by pressing. I also think that was a very nice looking

book at 8.0.

 

boy, those were my two thoughts exactly...............................

[batman_fan]

I wonder who ended up taking this book to its full potential. Was it the original consigner or did they end up selling it to the person that had the work done and then sell it through Heritage? Does anyone know who the original owner of the 1st two sells was?

[mjacobs8]

MasterChief rocks! Just the facts baby!

[backtomarvel]

Great work ... laid out for all to see.