Manufactured Gold

[burntboy]

Kudos for another excellent report.

 

Gotta second that - another VERY interesting case study..........

 

I, too, am very curious as to the identity of our new master sleuth. But even without understanding the motivation, there's no denying the hard facts presented...................

[langur88]

Keep up the good work exposing these books.

[Davenport]

 

As of August 21, 2006, the new version of Sensation Comics #35 maintains its status as the highest graded copy to date on the CGC Census. The original version (0055957020) is no longer searchable in the population database.

 

Can someone spell out exactly what this means? I've always assumed it meant the original label was included/returned with the re-submission.

True, or no?

[Filter81]

Is there something I am not understanding about this last example??

 

The way it looks (based on the way I am reading this) is that one of CGC's larger submitters sent the book in to CGC. Before sending the book to CGC, they disassembled the book and swapped the covers. (From what I understand, according to CGC's standards, this DOES constitute restoration.) When the book was resubmitted to CGC, the owner made no mention of the restoration work he had performed. When CGC missed the work, the owner of the book said nothing.

 

Is it just me, or is this exactly what happened during the whole Ewert situation? Am I understanding something incorrectly? Why are more people not seriously concerned about this?

 

In the previous examples, despite everyone's individual opinions regarding what is ethical and what is not, at least the books were graded based on CGC's standards of what is and what isn't restoration. This book, to me at least, looks like something entirely different.

[backtomarvel]

The books will all be flagged so if ever re-submitted...they can only be improved by a 1/2 grade in the future.

 

This tells me that CGC is flagging all resubmits ... knowing when they remove the old label from the database they are able to connect it to the book in the new holder.

 

This also tells me that CGC would know when a book makes and "unusual" jump. How long has this practice been in place?

[Sal]

Chalk another notch in your belt Chief. Great find.

 

Interesting indeed.

 

 

So would CGC PLOD this book if told about it?

 

What exactly is their policy regarding this?

 

 

Ze-

 

They grade the book that's in front of them at the time of grading.

 

They don't pay any attention to the history or what's been done to a book unless it is evident and they can spot it at the time of grading. No searching of archives, comparison of scans, or anything like that.

 

because doing otherwise would then shift the onus on catching manipulated books back onto CGC and away from the Forum Detective Agency© which of course no one would want, since we get access to great threads like this one as a result

[MasterChief]

There is something else I wanted to ask.... who exactly is MasterChief? Has anyone met him at a Con and is willing to vouch for him?

 

Not to pooh-pooh on a Forumite who is obviously willing to devote a lot of personal time and effort in bringing a lot of these books to light, BUT, when I see a poster with precious few posts AND a incredibly in-depth knowledge of restoration and imaging know-how, I immediately start thinking of one person.....

 

Is the identity of the contributing poster really important when discussing the books in this thread? Probably not. But still.....

 

Okay...not sure as to why the inference of being a shill or a poster with an agenda-driven complex keeps rearing its ugly head. I can understand it to a point, but really, when does someone pass the credibility checkpoint?

 

Honestly speaking, if anyone still has a question as to my sincerity or is asking himself or herself “who is this guy and what is he all about”, well, you can pretty much create a word picture by reading my short posting history. It’s not that long, and you could get a good idea of where I’m coming from by reading my very first post (and the stuff regarding the Stan Lee File Copy Collection).

 

Yes, I am a real person. No, I do not have any other forum ID’s. Esquire addressed that line of questioning a couple of months ago when he called me out.

 

I may be getting old but I haven’t forgotten my name...yet. Last time I checked it said Mitch Jordan on my driver’s license – not Daniel Dupcak (don’t laugh, that has been mentioned). I would be happy to introduce myself to any forum member at a convention. Usually, I attended two a year, Wizard World LA and San Diego.

 

BTW...Thanks to Z and RH for the vote of confidence. I have communicated with both of them and they seem like stand-up guys to me.

[MasterChief]

 

As of August 21, 2006, the new version of Sensation Comics #35 maintains its status as the highest graded copy to date on the CGC Census. The original version (0055957020) is no longer searchable in the population database.

 

Can someone spell out exactly what this means? I've always assumed it meant the original label was included/returned with the re-submission.

True, or no?

 

 

In order for CGC to delete a book from the population database, CGC must have the original label. Here is a statement from the company regarding Census accuracy dated January 17, 2005:

 

 

 

Anyone can help keep our census accurate by mailing us the labels from any books that have been cracked out for any reason. We must have the original label with the barcode number to be able to remove the book from the census.

[MasterChief]

Is there something I am not understanding about this last example??

 

The way it looks (based on the way I am reading this) is that one of CGC's larger submitters sent the book in to CGC. Before sending the book to CGC, they disassembled the book and swapped the covers. (From what I understand, according to CGC's standards, this DOES constitute restoration.) When the book was resubmitted to CGC, the owner made no mention of the restoration work he had performed. When CGC missed the work, the owner of the book said nothing.

 

Is it just me, or is this exactly what happened during the whole Ewert situation? Am I understanding something incorrectly? Why are more people not seriously concerned about this?

 

In the previous examples, despite everyone's individual opinions regarding what is ethical and what is not, at least the books were graded based on CGC's standards of what is and what isn't restoration. This book, to me at least, looks like something entirely different.

 

Great questions, Filter. Great questions indeed.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Why are more people not seriously concerned about this?

 

Those that are concerned go about their purchases with appropriate caution.

 

Those that aren't concerned are firmly in the "certification works" camp.

 

Besides, why the hub-bub? Its just another specimen that has reached its full P.O.T.E.N.T.I.A.L:

 

Pressed

Only

To Squeeze

Every

Nickel

Then

Inconspicuously &

Anonymously

unLoaded

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

There is something else I wanted to ask.... who exactly is MasterChief? Has anyone met him at a Con and is willing to vouch for him?

 

Not to pooh-pooh on a Forumite who is obviously willing to devote a lot of personal time and effort in bringing a lot of these books to light, BUT, when I see a poster with precious few posts AND a incredibly in-depth knowledge of restoration and imaging know-how, I immediately start thinking of one person.....

 

Is the identity of the contributing poster really important when discussing the books in this thread? Probably not. But still.....

 

Okay...not sure as to why the inference of being a shill or a poster with an agenda-driven complex keeps rearing its ugly head. I can understand it to a point, but really, when does someone pass the credibility checkpoint?

 

Honestly speaking, if anyone still has a question as to my sincerity or is asking himself or herself “who is this guy and what is he all about”, well, you can pretty much create a word picture by reading my short posting history. It’s not that long, and you could get a good idea of where I’m coming from by reading my very first post (and the stuff regarding the Stan Lee File Copy Collection).

 

Yes, I am a real person. No, I do not have any other forum ID’s. Esquire addressed that line of questioning a couple of months ago when he called me out.

 

I may be getting old but I haven’t forgotten my name...yet. Last time I checked it said Mitch Jordan on my driver’s license – not Daniel Dupcak (don’t laugh, that has been mentioned). I would be happy to introduce myself to any forum member at a convention. Usually, I attended two a year, Wizard World LA and San Diego.

 

BTW...Thanks to Z and RH for the vote of confidence. I have communicated with both of them and they seem like stand-up guys to me.

 

Mitch, good enough. Like I wrote earlier, the identity and or agenda shouldn't matter so much as the facts presented. I do appreciate the time and effort you put forth, and I apologize if I skipped the part where you clarified your identify.

 

There have just been an unending number of shills since I joined up three years ago, and I just wanted some assurance you weren't yet another.

 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming....

[Harvey Dude]

...Thanks to Z and RH for the vote of confidence. I have communicated with both of them and they seem like stand-up guys to me.

 

You sound like a stand up guy with high ethics, which I admire. Based on your postings, you could be an asset to NOD.

[Harvey Dude]

Can someone spell out exactly what this means? I've always assumed it meant the original label was included/returned with the re-submission. True, or no?

 

No. The original label can be returned at any time to get the census grade removed. Based on CGC's own statement, the original label must be submitted to remove the grade from the census. It is not imperative that the label be resubmitted with the resubmission.

[ArAich]

The original label can be returned at any time to get the census grade removed.

 

Note the 3 very important words in this statement...

[Filter81]

Why are more people not seriously concerned about this?

 

Those that are concerned go about their purchases with appropriate caution.

 

Those that aren't concerned are firmly in the "certification works" camp.

 

Besides, why the hub-bub? Its just another specimen that has reached its full P.O.T.E.N.T.I.A.L:

 

Pressed

Only

To Squeeze

Every

Nickel

Then

Inconspicuously &

Anonymously

unLoaded

 

The difference between this particular book and every other example listed, is that this book has been disassembled. (There is no doubt about it. There is no way you can reverse the two covers without popping the staples.) And my understanding is that CGC has always said that as soon as a book has been disassembled, it has been restored. CGC has always said that pressing is not restoration, and they also say that cleaning is not restoration as long as the staples are not popped (do I have this correct?). To me, this situation seemed identical to the Ewert situation that had everyone up in arms, where someone managed to sneak restoration past CGC.

 

However, what I didn't realize until just now is that in order to be removed from the CGC database, CGC needs to have the label in hand. That would mean that in this case CGC has to have the Green label in their possession. So they must know that this book has had work done to it and the book is still in a blue label.

 

So now I'm really confused.. Is popping the staples no longer considered restoration by CGC? Or is this case somehow an exception to the rule? Can anyone clarify exactly what happened in this case? Or am I working off of a faulty assumption somewhere?

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

So now I'm really confused.. Is popping the staples no longer considered restoration by CGC? Or is this case somehow an exception to the rule? Can anyone clarify exactly what happened in this case? Or am I working off of a faulty assumption somewhere?

 

Confucious say: "A Moving target is indeed difficult to hit, and even more difficult to be held accountable for."

[Harvey Dude]

You didn't drop the ball. CGC missed the restoration.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

But Filter brings up an excellent point. To remove the old serial # from the database, they would've had to had the original label. Someone didn't put 2 + 2 together or......

 

do we know who resubbed the book after disassembly?

[kc120us]

Is popping the staples no longer considered restoration by CGC? Or is this case somehow an exception to the rule? Can anyone clarify exactly what happened in this case? Or am I working off of a faulty assumption somewhere?

 

Some very interesting questions, Filter81. Especially given the evidence before us. Perhaps Steve or someone else from CGC would care to answer them?

[Harvey Dude]

I am reasonably certain who submitted the book. The sad thing is CGC knows who submtted the book but takes no action to stop these shenanigans.