Guess the grade game!

[casarachi]

Personally, I have no problem paying F/VF or possibly VF (7.5-8.5 at best) price for this book, but NM 9.4?

[casarachi]

If this were a Giant Size X-Men #1 in the same condition, would you call it a 9.4?

 

Oh, that's right, they forgive old books. So, if you have a GS X#1 with a sun shadow and it was graded 6.0, wait another 40 years, resubmit and you'll get a NM 9.6! As long as there's no pencil'd name written on the cover.

[thehumantorch]

I have the overstreet 2009 in my hands, and most people use overstreet by the way,

and I quote:

 

1. "9.4 NEAR MINT (NM): Nearly perfect with only minor imperfections that keep it from the next higher grde. The overall look is "as if it were purchased and read once or twice"

________

 

This book does not "look as if it were purchased". I never purchased a new book that had a sun-shadow. have you?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

2. ""Cover is flat with no surface wear"

 

________

 

what is a sun shadow? Not surface wear? It is BEATEN by the sun!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

3. "Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location."

_______

 

The pencil is NOT an arrival date. The grade where pencil otherthan arrival dates is allowed is in VG. If it were from a pedigree collection, this wouldn't apply. It's not.

 

Overstreet VG says "store stamps, name stamps,arrival dates,initials, have no effect on this grade."

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

4. "No soiling, staining or other discoloration apart from slight foxing"

_______

 

a sun shadow is not "discoloration?"

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

***********

 

..... I believe this book should have at most received a "qualified" label because of the pencil alone. Yet achieved "best comic in the census".

 

If you go by this, the book is VG in universal.

 

if I go by CGC's website...

 

A Qualified label is used by CGC for certified books that have a significant defect that needs specific description, or to note an unauthenticated signature (one which was not witnessed by CGC). For example, it would be a disservice to the seller and buyer to call a VF/NM book with a 4-inch back cover tear a VG, so CGC will give this book a Qualified grade of "VF/NM 9.0, back cover 4-inch tear." Or, if the book is signed on the cover it may be noted as "Name Written on Cover."

 

___________

 

conclusion, how did this book get 9.4?

please tell me.

 

What is the justification?

 

I believe MOST collectors THINK the CGC goes by Overstreet. I did until today. I thought the gaders made mistakes but they have their own book. I'd like to see a copy. But it doesn't exist! Does it. How convenient.

 

What is really odd here is no one has given ANY comments disputing the grade. No 9.2's and no 9.6's.

 

CGC doesn't use Overstreet grading standards. I can't speak for most collectors but it is common knowledge here. CGC doesn't publish their grading standards, wish they did but they don't.

 

It is tough to comment on a comic's grade when all we can see is a broken link.

 

I prefer raw books and I don't always agree with CGC grades but CGC's resto check and generally tight grading standards are of great value when buying expensive books.

 

You comments like "How convenient" show your anti CGC attitude but I can't understand how a 30 year collector can't see the value in CGC's services.

[casarachi]

Sorry, I did go back and change that before you posted the comment on my "how convenient", I noticed what I did and had removed it and your right. I don't want to come off that way.

 

And yes, The cgc is good at revealing restoration. I never said there was no good things about the CGC, there are many good things, which is why this particular issue has "blown me away" and makes you wonder what's really going on....but in this case,... I disagree. The book comes up on my computer. It's a sensation #1 in NM 9.4 with a dust shadow/sun shadow. Another person posted a link early on. (possibly they deleted it), I didn't show the link becasue it revealed the grade.

 

in this case, we're talking a lot of cash, more than most people make in a year, so no, I disagree, there is no value in this particular situation. It's actually scary.

[casarachi]

the creator of this thread made some excellent points and the MOST responders to this thread were

quite pathetic.

 

it is hilarious reading the same tired replies from the same people. their typical

defense when they know they are wrong. the OP made perfect sense in almost

every aspect of his posting.

 

his concerns are valid and obviously he does not drink the kool aid while most here

do.

 

I don't know about how valid the guy's points are but he did get a pretty crappy welcome right from the first page.

 

What's the matter with you people? Seriously.

 

 

 

Yeah but seriously Roy, the guy sets up a lame "grading contest" which is quickly exposed as a fabrication to rant about the grade CGC gave this book...so why the coyness and subterfuge, just come out and say what's on your mind...and then after that, SERIOUSLY, the guy was pretty unintelligible...the guy's on the couch and I'm his shrink and I still don't understand what he's sayin'

 

I don't know Tom. I think personally people were a little rough. He's obviously new here.

 

I got hammered as a PGX shill when I first started posting here years ago. People lay a beat down on me because I didn't agree or march in line with everyone here from day one.

 

I could be wrong but this guy could genuinely be trying to prove a point. He may just not be internet savvy enough to do it effectively.

 

I mean, nobody even really proved anything except that he's got somewhat of a sense of a humor and isn't that smooth at internet communication.

 

Is that enough evidence to lynch someone on?

 

hey.. do not defend the guy. you might be called a tool also by the peanut gallery.

 

he used a grading contest post to start the conversation. he wanted opinions on

the book before he gave his own. naturally before the first page was over he was

called a shill. (using the cgc forum definition which makes absolutely no sense

to someone new to the forum).

 

the original poster wanted to buy the book but the grade was so far off from what

he thought it should be he will probably pass. He listed the reasons he thought it was off.

His reasons made sense to me.

 

the original poster then has to wade through many nonsense posts of one liners

and stupid pictures found on the internet.

 

he then mentions he dislikes grading a new book any different then an old book. I

agree with him.

 

He is very correct that grading companies involve politics in their day to day business.

 

I also find it humorous that there really is no guarantee. I know comics are fragile

and perhaps they will make good on any mistake.. but that is all up to them. This

it totally different then coins which NGC grades. They will eat a mistake with cash.

Money on the barrel head!!!

 

the original poster even states:

"& I'm not bashing anyone. I disagreed with "the opinion" placed on a book."

 

it is the regulars here doing all the bashing.

 

man i could go on and on.

 

 

 

What's the matter with you people? Seriously.

 

indeed.

 

 

"He is very correct that grading companies involve politics in their day to day business."

 

Seriously, that line made me laugh. You're one funny dude, unless you weren't trying to make me laugh...then you're just pathetically retarded.

 

Not all experts agree with CGC's grades. The comic book store chain Mile High Comics offers their customers a refund if a comic book which they evaluated as "Near Mint" is given a lower grade by CGC.[10] For its part, Comics Guaranty LLC has been tight-lipped about its grading standards. In 2001, when the Comics Buyer's Guide changed its "Price Index" column to add Overstreet's grading definitions to CGC's grades, CGC requested that this change be reversed, stating that Overstreet's definitions were not necessarily the same as its own. When asked by the Comics Buyer's Guide to clarify its definitions, CGC declined. However, in July 2003, CGC announced that it had decided to fully adopt Overstreet's grading standards.[11] In October of that year, CGC President Steve Eichenbaum stated that although the company had adopted the Overstreet standards, CGC's standards remained unchanged. Eichenbaum cited the 2002 publication of the 2nd edition of The Official Overstreet Comic Book Grading Guide – with input from CGC's graders – as the reason for the July announcement, stating that "there is now little difference between Overstreet and CGC."[12] In reporting on the subject, Comics Buyer's Guide reporter Nathan Melby asked, "Who adopted whose standards?"[12] According to Mile High Comics owner Chuck Rozanski, prior to the publication of the new grading guide, Overstreet was negotiating a "middle ground" between the standards established in their 1992 guide and the stricter CGC standards. Rozanski questioned the wisdom of changing Overstreet's standards – which could greatly lower the value of several collections – in order to achieve a "political solution" with CGC.[13] In September 2003, CGC changed the labels it puts on graded comics, removing most descriptive terms used by Overstreet ("near mint", "fair", etc.), instead using just CGC's own numeric grading scale.[14] On CGC's message board, the company's then-President Steve Borock explained that this change was made so that the numeric grade would be larger and easier to see. He added that the descriptive terms which were removed are becoming obsolete.[15] Overstreet now uses both the numeric point grade and the alpha descriptive grade in their annual price guide and their official grading guide.[16] Likewise, CGC's grading guide now lists the corresponding descriptive grade next to the numeric grade.[7]

 

from the wikipedia page. what a convoluted paragraph eh? notice the political aspect. Those are not even my words. Others used the term.

 

politics: Politics is a process by which groups of people make collective decisions.

 

retarded eh?

 

Just saw this! Very interesting. Thanks for sharing!

 

[thehumantorch]

We all know that CGC isn't perfect, that CGC can and has made mistakes, and that 2 books in the same CGC grade aren't always equal.

 

If you had spent more time here you would have often seen the comment "buy the book not the grade". I don't believe that CGC deducts from the grade for miswraps. I also don't believe that CGC deducts as much as the Overstreet grading guide for tanning and dust shadows. When buying books we look at the CGC grade and we also look for miscuts, tanning, etc. Most of us would pass on the Sensation #1 as it is obviously a poor example of a 9.4 and overpriced.

 

There are threads, here on the CGC boards, all the time from long time board members criticizing the assigned grade on a CGC book but your posts appear absolutely anti CGC. Perhaps you should hang out here for a while and give us and CGC a chance.

[casarachi]

Interesting. It doesn't seem to cover under-grading, just over-grading. So it doesn't really protect the submitter, but the party purchasing from the submitter at a later date, or anyone making a purchase further down the chain.

 

I wonder why they do this for coins but not comics?

 

Yes.. just over grading. Submitters have to decide if they agree with the grade

or not. If not, send it back in. That is very common. If the grade does not fit, one

has to resubmit.

 

------------

 

From CGC's FAQ.

 

"Does CGC offer a grading guarantee?

 

Due to the fragile nature of comic books, CGC does not offer a grading guarantee. However, CGC does offer the following guarantee: a) CGC guarantees that one pre-grader and two senior graders will review every comic book submitted for grading. b) CGC guarantees its holder to be free of defects. Defective holders will be replaced at no charge, except when it is determined (at CGC's sole discretion) that the holder was subjected to abuse, or if damage is the result of storage in a hazardous environment. c) CGC guarantees that all books it certifies are authentic, as described on the CGC grading label."

 

Basically the only thing it seems to cover is that you do not end up with a book

that is fake, the slab is built well, and it is graded by 3 people.

 

So it sounds like if a fake Cerebus managed to slip into a slab CGC would gladly

reimburse you for the going rate at the grade you bought it at. Crack it out and then

sell the fake on the open market if it has any value. Some fakes do.

 

I think shaken comic syndrome or whatever they call it is a main reason they

cannot guarantee the grade. Just by shaking the comic book you could possibly

damage it inside the slab. Coins... that would be very very difficult. The move

around a bit but only the rims are touched for the most part and naturally it is

a harder material.

 

THAT is what the Guarantee in CGC means?

 

 

So, if you buy a CGC Blue for $10,000 and it's restored, what's the guarantee?

+ + + =

[casarachi]

We all know that CGC isn't perfect, that CGC can and has made mistakes, and that 2 books in the same CGC grade aren't always equal.

 

If you had spent more time here you would have often seen the comment "buy the book not the grade". I don't believe that CGC deducts from the grade for miswraps. I also don't believe that CGC deducts as much as the Overstreet grading guide for tanning and dust shadows. When buying books we look at the CGC grade and we also look for miscuts, tanning, etc. Most of us would pass on the Sensation #1 as it is obviously a poor example of a 9.4 and overpriced.

 

There are threads, here on the CGC boards, all the time from long time board members criticizing the assigned grade on a CGC book but your posts appear absolutely anti CGC. Perhaps you should hang out here for a while and give us and CGC a chance.

 

 

RIGHT but...... I can say it's a mistake, you can say it's a mistake but what do they call it? An opinion, not a mistake.

 

I'm just amazed people are so quickly, trustingly, willing to pay so much based on opinions that don't make sense.

"Most of us would pass on the Sensation #1 as it is obviously a poor example of a 9.4 and overpriced."

Game over! We have a

 

 

[thehumantorch]

By mistakes I was refering to things like the Ewart micro trimming that CGC missed. As far as grades go, CGC's grades are just an opinion but I trust their opinion more than anyone elses. There isn't a CGC book in my collection that I'm not comfortable with the grade. I do avoid miscut and tanned books.

 

Watch two of the same books with the same grade in any large auction. Books with less than white pages, miscuts, tanning will realize a lot less than well centered, square books.

[Jeffro.]

 

I could be wrong but this guy could genuinely be trying to prove a point. He may just not be internet savvy enough to do it effectively.

 

I mean, nobody even really proved anything except that he's got somewhat of a sense of a humor and isn't that smooth at internet communication.

 

Is that enough evidence to lynch someone on?

 

No, but it makes trying to figure what he's really saying nearly impossible.

 

If he wants to get his point across, maybe he should learn how to enunciate it better.

 

 

You're just being contrary again Roy.

[Jeffro.]

I just read on another thread "GA bump" Does this mean, they have "lieniancy" because it's almost 70 years old? I was brought up that you grade a golden age comic the same as you would a new comic. That age is not an excuse for "wear & tear".

 

Steve Borock has commented on the grading of GA books. I wish I could find the thread. Maybe some helpful boardie can find it.

 

Overstreet professed that all comics should be graded with equal standard regardless of age. An opinion I agree with by the way.

 

But whether I agree with it or not is immaterial. CGCs practise is their practise. They didn't consult me or ask my opinion. Ultimately, it's up to me whether I accept one standard over the other which will then be reflected in the purchases I make. In other words, buy the book, not the label.

 

 

[EDIT] - found a thread. Take a look

[143ksk]

3. "Small, inconspicuous, lightly penciled, stamped or inked arrival dates are acceptable as long as they are in an unobtrusive location."

_______

 

The pencil is NOT an arrival date. The grade where pencil otherthan arrival dates is allowed is in VG. If it were from a pedigree collection, this wouldn't apply. It's not.

 

Overstreet VG says "store stamps, name stamps,arrival dates,initials, have no effect on this grade."

 

I think you're misconstruing this. It says that NM books cannot have any writing other than arrival dates. It does not say that a NM book with any other writing on the cover is automatically a VG. What it does say is that writing on the cover, other than an arrival date, does have an effect on any grade above VG. Thus this book might be bumped down to a VFNM due to the name being written on the cover. If it was a Bonnett's stamp, it might be bumped down to a FN

 

You are absolutely correct that not everyone agrees with CGC all the time. There are often threads in the Gold section about CGC grading of books just like this one (in fact, I'm pretty sure this one has already been covered there...). I personally would not want to pay NM $ for a book that looked like this one, but if I could get it for VFNM $ I might go for it

 

The way I look at CGC grading is that it is a way to standardize grading to a great extent. For GA books they are usually a grade more lenient than my grading by my interpretation of Overstreet. Once you understand where CGC and your own grading standards are relative to each other, most of the issues disappear. Yes, sellers will apply Overstreet prices to CGC grades. However, Overstreet hasn't been accurate for so long that I'm not sure it's really that relevant whether it's applied in any particular situation.

[fantastic_four]

Heck, it's hard to get a book new off the stands better than 9.2! that's why Overstreet lists 9.2 as the highest grade.

 

No, it's because Overstreet doesn't like to get into pricing the top end of the market because the prices are too volatile. The majority of issues on the stands today and when I was a kid (1980s) are absolutely greater than 9.2.

[fantastic_four]

Why do they call it "the Guarantee" if the grade isn't "Guaranteed"

 

 

Who is "they"? The "G" in CGC stands for "guaranty," which means a good faith best attempt, not a guarantee. For you to suggest that any certification in any collectible field might guarantee grades suggests a naivete which belittles your points of debate.

 

You say you have no agenda...that may have been true when you originally posted, but your subsequent words stink of one.

[fantastic_four]

It's a great book, but it's not 9.4 according to overstreet. Yet will be judged and sold according to overstreet.

 

I generally agree with you that the Sensation book in question shouldn't be a 9.4, we've used that exact copy probably half a dozen times in these forums as an example of a controversial CGC grade. However, I haven't glanced at the OGG in a few years, so you could be right...but just to be sure, where does Overstreet state in his guide that a 9.4 can't have a dust shadow?

[fantastic_four]

CGC doesn't use Overstreet grading standards. I can't speak for most collectors but it is common knowledge here.

 

No, but they've been heavily influenced by them. Comparisons between Overstreet's standards and CGC's are useful, because where they do differ, in my experience, CGC usually has considered Overstreet's opinions and has a reason for differing. So examining the differences in their grading standards is a highly useful exercise.

 

I suspect CGC grades books with dust shadows leniently because they're removable. I've debated this book in other threads where people contend that the Sensation book in question doesn't have a dust shadow, but a sun shadow, which I'm not sure is removable. I still haven't heard consistent criteria for distinguishing one from the other, so I remain unconvinced, but am extremely interested in learning more.

[VintageComics]

The biggest problem people have with CGC grading is that CGC has adjusted what some old school graders are used to.

 

CGC is a business, and for that reason their service needs to be seen as adding value to a book.

 

In the old days a stain or a detached staple was an automatic VG range book, regardless of how good the rest of the book looked. Then you would price it at a slightly higher grade because of eye appeal. Somebody could walk into a store, pull the book off the wall, flip through it to assess the quality of the book and walk away happy knowing that even though they paid over guide for the book, they received a remarkable example of the book for their money.

 

With a slab over the internet it's tough to sell a VG like that without sounding like a carnival barker.

 

Unfortunately, grading a NM book with a large stain or a detached staple as a VG also kind of does the book a disservice . This is where I think CGC has strayed from Overstreet. For those exceptional books with a significant defect, CGC seems to have tried to find a compromise between eye appeal and technical grade to satisfy the submitter, seller and buyer.

 

Many people may not agree, but the truth is that CGC seems to have redefined grading. Although they say that they grade by Overstreet, this really isn't accurate. I think what is actually happening is that Overstreet is changing to accommodate CGC grading standards.

 

Not that this is a bad thing. It's just different and that is why when many people are introduced to CGC they are confused.

 

As far as using Overstreet for pricing on CGC products, there are many variables, but I do understand the confusion over using an Overstreet guide to price a NON Overstreet graded book.

 

Most of the prices in low and mid grades apply. Keys, scarce books and "hot" books have always sold for over guide so there is nothing new. What is new is the standardized grading and price structure of the highest graded books. There is a website call GP Analysis www.gpanalysis.com that actually tracks and records sales of CGC graded books and is indispensable if you are going to either buy or sell CGC graded books.

 

In my opinion, GPA makes Overstreet obsolete for that segment of the market.

 

Hope that helps.

[fantastic_four]

Many people may not agree, but the truth is that CGC seems to have redefined grading. Although they say that they grade by Overstreet, this really isn't accurate. I think what is actually happening is that Overstreet is changing to accommodate CGC grading standards.

 

Not that this is a bad thing. It's just different and that is why when many people are introduced to CGC they are confused.

 

Which is how it should be, and it's clear to me from the way he adjusted his own grading standards and the grading scale he uses with the second edition of his grading guide that Bob Overstreet agrees that he should defer to CGC's opinion. Bob's done a lot for the hobby, but he hasn't been sitting there grading books over and over for eight hours a day like Borock, Haspel, Litch, etc. CGC is forced to assign grades to a far wider array of defects day after day, month after month, year after year, than Bob has throughout his entire collecting experience. And CGC's feet are held to the fire more closely than Bob's have been--they've got paying customers that tend to get directly pissed more quickly and let you know it if they disagree with one of your standards, whereas Bob would just hear a comparatively scant amount of criticism every few weeks or months about the standards published in his grading guides.

 

I attribute Overstreet's apparent deference to CGC's standards greatly to Steve Borock. The way that he held open forums in the major cons seeking the opinions of Overstreet and lots of other major comics back issue figures prior to CGC opening its doors created a tremendous amount of goodwill and acceptance for CGC.

[Boozad]

There is a website call GP Analysis www.gpanalysis.com that actually tracks and records sales of CGC graded books and is indispensable if you are going to either buy or sell CGC graded books.

 

In my opinion, GPA makes Overstreet obsolete for that segment of the market.

 

Great points Roy. I wish I'd mentioned them twice before in this thread.

[casarachi]

 

CGC is a business, and for that reason their service needs to be seen as adding value to a book.

 

 

It's supposed to be a 3rd party, truthful evaluation, regardless of what the "value" may be.