Best way to buy a big book like Batman 1?

[ciorac]

Bill... You are missing the point... I simply responded to roy's assertion that a record sale of batman 1 in cgc 9.0 today will make his mid grade restored copy increase in price and that is simply not the reality of the current market...

 

I made no comment about the evolution and growth of the market over the past 25 years... Duh everyone has seen the growth...

 

The dynamic I am specifically commenting on is the assumption that these million $ sales have magically pulled up the value of restored mid grade keys when current sales of restored supes 1 and restored bat 1's support just the opposite ...

 

Long term it is likely all books will increase in value if demand increases... How's that for simple minded

 

Like I said, not if...when.

 

well sure...but the "when" still occurs with or without the million $ sales (thumbs u

 

So I'm saying that the big sales speed up the "when". You say they don't.

 

Fair enough.

 

(thumbs u

I guess maybe I am simple minded, as I am having a tough time expressing my thoughts...so let me slow it down...

 

they (big sales) speed up the "when" on comparable copies immediately...they even speed up the "when" for lower grade unrestored copies (as we have already seen in the action 1 3.0 and the tec 27 6.0 and many more behind the scene deals and offers I have heard) but what i am saying is that they have NOT sped up the "when" on mid grade restored copies outside of the big 2 (and even then, we didn't see an increase in tec 27 restored prices, and while we saw an increase in asking prices on several restored action 1's, the sales have obviously not motivated anyone to buy them, as they are all still available at rediculously inflated prices)...

 

in fact, just the OPPOSITE has occured, prices are DOWN on them (specifically batman 1 and superman 1, and all other non action 1 and tec 27 restored mid grade keys)... I can cite dozens of post million dollar sale examples... that IS my point... that right NOW, these sales are NOT helping those copies... long term "any" increasing sale will help (which is not a point I am aguing against )... that is the point Bill missed, and that is the point maybe you are not realizing I am trying to make

 

I missed nothing. I simply disagree. And over the course of years of watching, buying, selling, Batman 1s and other similar books, your scenario is inaccurate. Things don't happen in a vacuum the way you think they do. You play mostly at the high end of the market, so certainly your perception would be skewed. I get that.

 

What I don't you get is you can't look at a six month window in comics or even a year for that matter and declare a trend. That is goofy.

 

GA key comics have climbed in value each time record sales happen, in my experience it has happened in all grades. Restored and unrestored. Heck Gator, you know good and damn well how I lost my butt on books that I sold after the rising tide phenomon and left plenty on the table by selling them just before the rising tide. And they were mid grade restored for the most part.

 

Don't take an excerpt from the long documented history of performance of these books and make a declaration that your view is THE view. The facts simply don't support it.

 

Absent a big sale of a high grade MF 52 and AA 16 look how those have lagged. Looks like they need a boost.

 

Maybe you can get Jon to sell the MH 16 and help the case of all those holding mid graders.....

 

 

[ciorac]

 

I have to agree with Roy on this one Gator. You're just simple-minded.

 

 

that's just mean.

 

 

Nice edit there Mr Parker

[jkrk]

Bill... You are missing the point... I simply responded to roy's assertion that a record sale of batman 1 in cgc 9.0 today will make his mid grade restored copy increase in price and that is simply not the reality of the current market...

 

I made no comment about the evolution and growth of the market over the past 25 years... Duh everyone has seen the growth...

 

The dynamic I am specifically commenting on is the assumption that these million $ sales have magically pulled up the value of restored mid grade keys when current sales of restored supes 1 and restored bat 1's support just the opposite ...

 

Long term it is likely all books will increase in value if demand increases... How's that for simple minded

 

Like I said, not if...when.

 

well sure...but the "when" still occurs with or without the million $ sales (thumbs u

 

So I'm saying that the big sales speed up the "when". You say they don't.

 

Fair enough.

 

(thumbs u

I guess maybe I am simple minded, as I am having a tough time expressing my thoughts...so let me slow it down...

 

they (big sales) speed up the "when" on comparable copies immediately...they even speed up the "when" for lower grade unrestored copies (as we have already seen in the action 1 3.0 and the tec 27 6.0 and many more behind the scene deals and offers I have heard) but what i am saying is that they have NOT sped up the "when" on mid grade restored copies outside of the big 2 (and even then, we didn't see an increase in tec 27 restored prices, and while we saw an increase in asking prices on several restored action 1's, the sales have obviously not motivated anyone to buy them, as they are all still available at rediculously inflated prices)...

 

in fact, just the OPPOSITE has occured, prices are DOWN on them (specifically batman 1 and superman 1, and all other non action 1 and tec 27 restored mid grade keys)... I can cite dozens of post million dollar sale examples... that IS my point... that right NOW, these sales are NOT helping those copies... long term "any" increasing sale will help (which is not a point I am aguing against )... that is the point Bill missed, and that is the point maybe you are not realizing I am trying to make

 

 

This thread is Too complicated for me.

 

RE: Current Bat 1--- How much commish is the seller paying for the auction?

 

Final posted sales price.... 400K-500k use 450K as a best guess. A real sale? Maybe?? The 300K might be the reserve. A price below 400K would create little excitement so.. I expect higher.

 

2)A high price sale on a major book... helps the higher graded unrestored copies immensely (limited supply)

 

. Impact on restored/ lower grade copies with supply? Somewhat helped but given their relatively low selling price the % increase equates to relatively small dollars.

[WaltT-migration]

 

maybe sellers, like you, price their copies because they don't want to sell, but would "if" they found someone to pay that premium...

 

(thumbs u

 

Not in a hurry to sell.

 

I could price my action 1 at 120K, but no one is going to pay me that for it...sub 100K, sure, easy sell (as it was before the mil and 1.5 mil sales)...

 

 

I think that the $100K entry barrier for any copy of an Action #1 will change. It's just a matter of time.

 

True enough Bats #1 is an anomaly in that supply is greater than many other books from the same time period.

 

Again, it's just a matter of time.

 

agreed... but, with action 1, that has always been the trend... record sales have not had to of happened in the past, as the entry level point has been moving upward for years and years and will continue to , restored and unrestored copies ( and i suspect the same with tec 27)...

my opinion is not so with restored batman 1's and superman 1's (as mentioned, I have actually seen a price reduction in both, of late, all post "record sales")

 

from a buyers perspective, I would love for prices to continue to dip... but, as long as supply remains relatively constant, all we need is for demand to increase for prices to increase (thumbs u

 

Rick, this upward trend has been normal for decades for any key book that still has relevant heroes or villains in it.

 

If so then it stands to reason that restored and unrestored books will move upwards as long as they are considered important books over the long haul...it's easy to take a little snippet out of time and say "this issue went down here" even if the book has generally been trending upwards much like you can't take one day out of a given stock to show a trend. Has Batman #1 or AF #15 or any other truly relevant key gone down ever?

 

What I see as the only thing that you and I are really discussing is not if larger sales will trickle down to lesser copies but when will they trickle down?

 

restored af 15 are cheap

[WaltT-migration]

We have seen af15 prices dipping for over a year now....

 

We have seen batman 1 restored and superman 1 restored prices dipping for the better part of a year now....

 

Is this just price correction? Possibly...is it economy? Maybe (though based on high grade unrestored sales, I would say doubtful)

 

The bottom line is all markets are cyclical... The recent record sales have not helped lower/mid grade restored counterparts at all (specifically batman 1 and supes 1)...so my premise and response to roy was there is no immediate (or even medium) return to be had just because you own a mid grade restored bat 1 right now...in fact, if any short term conclusion were to be drawn is that it is actually "hurting" the prices of those restored books (but only short term imo)

 

Now the general cycle is that with an increase in demand and a relative constant supply a books' price will increase...but this occurance is independent of record sales of high(er) grade unrestored mega keys... In other words I don't think these sales are helping demand and may in fact be hurting demand for restored lower/mid grade bat 1 as evidenced by stagnant sales and prices (and even supported by decreasing rest supe 1 sale prices)

 

It is that simple, I believe...but this is just my opinion based on market observations

 

Will prices stay down forever, I suspect not ... So now is probably a Great time to buy. (thumbs u

 

batman 3 movie will increase the value of the restored books

[greaterfool]

Bill... You are missing the point... I simply responded to roy's assertion that a record sale of batman 1 in cgc 9.0 today will make his mid grade restored copy increase in price and that is simply not the reality of the current market...

 

I made no comment about the evolution and growth of the market over the past 25 years... Duh everyone has seen the growth...

 

The dynamic I am specifically commenting on is the assumption that these million $ sales have magically pulled up the value of restored mid grade keys when current sales of restored supes 1 and restored bat 1's support just the opposite ...

 

Long term it is likely all books will increase in value if demand increases... How's that for simple minded

 

Like I said, not if...when.

 

well sure...but the "when" still occurs with or without the million $ sales (thumbs u

 

So I'm saying that the big sales speed up the "when". You say they don't.

 

Fair enough.

 

(thumbs u

I guess maybe I am simple minded, as I am having a tough time expressing my thoughts...so let me slow it down...

 

they (big sales) speed up the "when" on comparable copies immediately...they even speed up the "when" for lower grade unrestored copies (as we have already seen in the action 1 3.0 and the tec 27 6.0 and many more behind the scene deals and offers I have heard) but what i am saying is that they have NOT sped up the "when" on mid grade restored copies outside of the big 2 (and even then, we didn't see an increase in tec 27 restored prices, and while we saw an increase in asking prices on several restored action 1's, the sales have obviously not motivated anyone to buy them, as they are all still available at rediculously inflated prices)...

 

in fact, just the OPPOSITE has occured, prices are DOWN on them (specifically batman 1 and superman 1, and all other non action 1 and tec 27 restored mid grade keys)... I can cite dozens of post million dollar sale examples... that IS my point... that right NOW, these sales are NOT helping those copies... long term "any" increasing sale will help (which is not a point I am aguing against )... that is the point Bill missed, and that is the point maybe you are not realizing I am trying to make

 

re: restored action 1 i think the court copy auction will set the bar for the other restored copies. the million dollar sales created some buzz about the book, but the buyers for those books are in a whole nother league.

[G.A.tor]

 

I missed nothing. I simply disagree. And over the course of years of watching, buying, selling, Batman 1s and other similar books, your scenario is inaccurate. Things don't happen in a vacuum the way you think they do. You play mostly at the high end of the market, so certainly your perception would be skewed. I get that.

What I don't you get is you can't look at a six month window in comics or even a year for that matter and declare a trend. That is goofy.

 

GA key comics have climbed in value each time record sales happen, in my experience it has happened in all grades. Restored and unrestored. Heck Gator, you know good and damn well how I lost my butt on books that I sold after the rising tide phenomon and left plenty on the table by selling them just before the rising tide. And they were mid grade restored for the most part.

 

Don't take an excerpt from the long documented history of performance of these books and make a declaration that your view is THE view. The facts simply don't support it.

 

Absent a big sale of a high grade MF 52 and AA 16 look how those have lagged. Looks like they need a boost.

 

Maybe you can get Jon to sell the MH 16 and help the case of all those holding mid graders.....

 

you are still missing my point... I am specifically talking about just now... just this little window..not stating it is a trend, etc, just reporting what is happening "now"... how just because a book is hitting a million, it is not causing the books around it that are mid grade restored to "rise" right now... in fact, they are falling (in relationships to the increasing prices paid "now" on unrestored copies)...

 

again, you know I understand the "longer term" affect... but that is not my point...

 

my point is that these million dollar sales have not caused any immediate increase in price point or real world sales of any mid grade restored "keys"...

 

that's all

[VintageComics]

 

that's all

 

I believe you.

 

I think it has had an impact in the past, it should have an impact now and it will have an impact in the future.

 

I think this poor economy is likely affecting regular spending habits and therefore upsetting trends and fundamentals that normally would follow a pattern that you could bank on in the past.

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

The long term trend is still up....so the best bet is stay the course.

[seank]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

[Dark Knight]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

Good luck! Hope it all turns out well for you

[PokerKid]

So much for the thrill of the chase. Hope it is what you are after and all goes well.

[ciorac]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

[ciorac]

 

I missed nothing. I simply disagree. And over the course of years of watching, buying, selling, Batman 1s and other similar books, your scenario is inaccurate. Things don't happen in a vacuum the way you think they do. You play mostly at the high end of the market, so certainly your perception would be skewed. I get that.

What I don't you get is you can't look at a six month window in comics or even a year for that matter and declare a trend. That is goofy.

 

GA key comics have climbed in value each time record sales happen, in my experience it has happened in all grades. Restored and unrestored. Heck Gator, you know good and damn well how I lost my butt on books that I sold after the rising tide phenomon and left plenty on the table by selling them just before the rising tide. And they were mid grade restored for the most part.

 

Don't take an excerpt from the long documented history of performance of these books and make a declaration that your view is THE view. The facts simply don't support it.

 

Absent a big sale of a high grade MF 52 and AA 16 look how those have lagged. Looks like they need a boost.

 

Maybe you can get Jon to sell the MH 16 and help the case of all those holding mid graders.....

 

you are still missing my point... I am specifically talking about just now... just this little window..not stating it is a trend, etc, just reporting what is happening "now"... how just because a book is hitting a million, it is not causing the books around it that are mid grade restored to "rise" right now... in fact, they are falling (in relationships to the increasing prices paid "now" on unrestored copies)...

 

again, you know I understand the "longer term" affect... but that is not my point...

 

my point is that these million dollar sales have not caused any immediate increase in price point or real world sales of any mid grade restored "keys"...

 

that's all

 

And that is why you are as wrong as wrong can be. It's the Florida - Nebraska game all over again.

 

Neve mind the fact that it has been true for 29 out of the last 30 years right? Because you say no, during the worst economic time since the great depression, it isn't true, then your case is proved, right?

 

And a holding call, or whatever, was the reason your team lost by about 40 points. Yeah, I see your point now buddy

 

(thumbs u

[Mac Man]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

Take pics! Can't wait to live vicariously through you!

[PokerKid]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

Take pics! Can't wait to live vicariously through you!

 

Stop derailing this thread by talking about the purchase of a Batman #1. There is a perfectly good pizzing match going on!

[Wayne-Tec]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.

 

I really hope everything works out well for you. Batman #1 is a very special book and despite it being one of the undisputed top GA keys of all-time, I still feel it to be a bit underrated. The fact that it is Joker's first appearence alone would make it one of the greatest funny books in history and as I'm sure you are well aware, there is just so much more.

 

EP Restoration might very well be the way to go. I believe I would do the same if the money were available to me. This way you get a sharp looking copy at a fraction of the price.

 

Any aspirations to send it out for grading when or if you make the purchase?

[Wayne-Tec]

I agree with every one of you. Now who's going to lend me 30K?

 

 

 

What a beautiful copy!

 

Slight restoration if memory serves me correct.

 

This might seem like a silly question but, do you or have you ever owned a copy?

[Wayne-Tec]

If indeed the final realized and/or asking prices on mega-key GA restored books are down, I would love to be a person with thousands of dollars at his disposal.

 

I've personally always been a collector with little resistance to restored books so being able to pick up a much higher graded issue for the same price as a lower graded unrestored copy would appeal to me. Especially if the books was trimmed, by all means...trim the heck out of a Batman #1 and sell it to me at a big discount.

 

But it all comes down to what your intent is. Are you buying the books as an investment first or are you buying it as a grail first, investment second? If it's the latter, then go for the restored copy so long as you know with relative certainty that you can at least make your money back a few years down the road. I think if you buy a raw/restored copy from a very reputable seller, this might very well be possible simply by slabbing the book (so long as no additional resto is found).

 

I have no real experience to back up this, but I have a feeling that the public's perception of restoration on some of these mega-keys will shift a little bit over time. There is just such a premium for that blue-label, people will pay and sometimes (in my opinion) over-pay to get it. If some of those high-grade unrestored copies get locked up like the MH copy of Action #1 has been, people might have to shift their views in order to be happier with what becomes available.

 

When it comes to restored books, I'd like to say that I hope for a day when people come to value the books more so than they are opposed to the stigmas attached but then again, wouldn't want to take away the percentage of discount that is often offered as a result. (thumbs u

[G.A.tor]

Update: I've been offered a Batman 1 with extensive professional restoration that is purportedly a 5.0 in a price range I believe I can live with. The seller will meet face to face and has sent me a gazillion photos. These indicate to me he's on the up and up. He's a short flight away. I'm considering a weekend trip to look at and possibly buy an expensive funny book.