I recently purchased a CGG graded comic....and guess what?

[AtomicPaul-migration]

MW,

 

You have to keep in mind that comic grading is in its relative infancy in relation to card grading. There's only been 4 years since the introduction of comic grading and only three companies (and #2 and #3 are considered minor league companies in comparison to #1, the major leagues, by the hobby populace).

 

The generally adopted rationale when you win or buy a graded book is that you're purchasing an item "as is". No return, even if you disagree with what comes in the mail. For those that are used to return priviledges on buying an item through the mail, basically blind (not with the book present for viewing), it's unsettling and takes some getting used to, but that has been standard practice with little exception as dealer-seller policy when buying graded material.

 

The sellers really aren't transgressing against a buyer because they spell it out in their auction and sales info, "no return on graded material". So if you bid and win, you are agreeing to that seller's terms by your willing participation, unless you didn't read his rules, and that's not his fault.

 

Now, here's the interesting part. You are #1 in sportscards. You are the JP of the card hobby. Not many here realize that and this is not buttering up, it's the plain truth. Anyone that's ever followed BMW auctions knows this. You deal in the upper 1 percentile material and your cards are all clean and untouched. No help. Your cards are all graded by the few sportscards grading companies (1 or 2) that actually can tell the difference between altered and unaltered cards and have rigorous standards for detection. And you're the type of seller that would not under any circumstances sell a card to anyone, even if you suspected alteration on it, whether the grading company picked it up or not and most importantly you champion that cause and help promote that kind of integrity as well as practicing it in the card hobby. Unfortunately, the concept of 'it's not my problem' is not viable to you but to many, whether selling graded or ungraded material. Your way is the exception, and certainly not the rule in this hobby, any more than in yours.

[DoubleCovaBrotha]

This situation is another unfortunate example of the risk that a buyer takes when purchasing items from eBay. According to eBay, as long as the seller is not intentionally misleading in their item description or send an item drastically different from the item advertised, then they are not at fault. Whether or not the seller or buyer agrees to this, these are the rules of eBay. Unless you can prove that the seller was intentionally deceitful in their auction, you are pretty much out of luck. In this situation, the seller has no responsibility (except maybe out of their own conscience) to refund or replace the item.

 

Although most of us around here hold ourselves to a higher standard, it is not the case with all sellers on eBay. The only recourse is to leave negative feedback to let other buyers know that the quality of the seller's product is not guaranteed.

[sterlingcomics]

Although this has been a great discussion, this is really an easy matter in my mind. The buyer had responsibility to judge the merchandise before purchasing. In my opinion, the bidder should have received ample pictures to make his own decision before bidding. Unless the seller has a return policy (we can argue all day long who would take books back), then the buyer needs to discuss this with CGG, or chalk this up as a learning experience.

 

As NotMHChuck said, professional comic collectors/sellers may hold themselves to a higher customer service standard. But this may not be necessarily the case with this eBay transaction.

[MW1]

The buyer had responsibility to judge the merchandise before purchasing.

Agreed, but so does the seller. Having a comic "in hand" is somewhat different than viewing an image.

[FlyingDonut]

The buyer had responsibility to judge the merchandise before purchasing.

Agreed, but so does the seller. Having a comic "in hand" is somewhat different than viewing an image.

 

Well, I guess we'll just disagree then. Got any graded 1984 Cubs cards?

[MW1]

The buyer had responsibility to judge the merchandise before purchasing.

Agreed, but so does the seller. Having a comic "in hand" is somewhat different than viewing an image.

 

Well, I guess we'll just disagree then. Got any graded 1984 Cubs cards?

No, I'm sorry, we don't. Most of what we buy and sell is pre-1968 although we do carry some more expensive modern rookies. There are several collectors on the SGC forums that have graded material from the 1970s and perhaps some from the 1980s. Post something on the SGC buy/sell/trade forum...you might receive a few responses.

[nik]

This is a tough situation, and real tough to take sides.

You yourself is a dealer/seller with high end graded cards. If I am out of line anywhere in my opinion , I apoligize.

 

1) You have your cards graded why?, because you know that SGC is recognized in the marketplace and you stand to make more money than selling them raw. I am sure your view on the raw cards will not fetch you as much as SGC view.

 

2) You have heard that CGG grades stricter than CGC, but there has been questions regarding their resto checks soooo., on to your situation.

 

a) Would you have bought this book from the seller if it was RAW? I dont think so.

b) Would you have gotten it for the same price if it was CGC graded? Definately Not.

c) Were you taking a risk, hoping you could have it graded by CGC and flip it for a lot more?, knowing so little about CGG.

 

Anyway you look at it, you purchased a slabbed comic, somebody elses opinion, hopefully a trusted experts opinion on the book, and not the sellers. So you really cant fault the seller, because like yourself he paid for an experts opinion.

Just my thoughts, hope I dont offend you.

[MW1]

I am sure your view on the raw cards will not fetch you as much as SGC view.

Yes, I would agree with only some isolated examples like G-VG Old Judge HOF'ers, certain other low-grade 19th century material, and perhaps some 1920s and 30s strip cards.

 

a) Would you have bought this book from the seller if it was RAW? I dont think so.

I already have a well-centered, high-end CGC 9.4 that I purchased in the last year. I was looking for another fairly high grade reading copy. It didn't really matter to me whether it was graded or not. If I got a good price on a graded book, I would have taken it out of the holder. So yes, I would have purchased this comic even if it were raw.

 

b) Would you have gotten it for the same price if it was CGC graded? Definately Not.

You are probably right. It would have cost me approximately $100 more.

 

c) Were you taking a risk, hoping you could have it graded by CGC and flip it for a lot more?, knowing so little about CGG.

No. I really didn't buy it with the intention of getting it regraded and selling it.

 

Anyway you look at it, you purchased a slabbed comic, somebody elses opinion, hopefully a trusted experts opinion on the book, and not the sellers.

True, but I'd much rather have the opinion of both the grading company AND the person selling the comic. Otherwise, the seller might as well be nothing more than a well-trained, semi-computer literate, box-packing monkey.

[joe_collector]

Otherwise, the seller might as well be nothing more than a well-trained, semi-computer literate, box-packing monkey.

 

Hence the popularity of selling graded comics.

[MW1]

I'd just like to briefly mention that of all the raw comics I've purchased in the last year, I was most pleased with this purchase.

 

The comic was described as NM to NM+ condition and I'd say if anything, that was a conservative estimate. The color and cover gloss are fantastic and the pages are white. In my opinion, this is a seller who did everything right.

[MW1]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention...check out the last two sentences in the description. Such irony!

[BassGMan]

MW1, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you do not bid on any of my future CGC or CGG auctions. Although you seem like a very honest and ethical guy, I really don't want to deal with buyers that question the validity of CGC's or CGG's grades and restoration check. Not that they cannot make mistakes, sure they can, but you are bidding and buying a book knowing that possibility. If all buyers felt like you do about this, CGG and CGC and all the others would go out of business as people like me would quit submitting. The whole reason that I do submit to these companies is in order to AVOID the problem you are having now.

 

After thinking about it more, I say just accept your book, do not hold the seller responsible, and take it as a learning experience. Apparently, from now on you cannot even buy a slabbed book online. Stick with the books you can see and hold in person at comic cons, comic stores and private dealers that you come across. Good luck to you and the seller in question. -----Sid

[joe_collector]

After thinking about it more, I say just accept your book, do not hold the seller responsible, and take it as a learning experience.

 

 

I say let the man do what he wants to do, as it's his money at stake. If you want to buy the CGG book from him at cost, then feel free to do what you will.

[awe4one]

Or at least don't buy CGG books....too many questions and little answers from the company.

 

Jim

[OldGuy]

MW,

 

You have to keep in mind that comic grading is in its relative infancy in relation to card grading. There's only been 4 years since the introduction of comic grading and only three companies (and #2 and #3 are considered minor league companies in comparison to #1, the major leagues, by the hobby populace).

 

The generally adopted rationale when you win or buy a graded book is that you're purchasing an item "as is". No return, even if you disagree with what comes in the mail. For those that are used to return priviledges on buying an item through the mail, basically blind (not with the book present for viewing), it's unsettling and takes some getting used to, but that has been standard practice with little exception as dealer-seller policy when buying graded material.

 

The sellers really aren't transgressing against a buyer because they spell it out in their auction and sales info, "no return on graded material". So if you bid and win, you are agreeing to that seller's terms by your willing participation, unless you didn't read his rules, and that's not his fault.

 

Now, here's the interesting part. You are #1 in sportscards. You are the JP of the card hobby. Not many here realize that and this is not buttering up, it's the plain truth. Anyone that's ever followed BMW auctions knows this. You deal in the upper 1 percentile material and your cards are all clean and untouched. No help. Your cards are all graded by the few sportscards grading companies (1 or 2) that actually can tell the difference between altered and unaltered cards and have rigorous standards for detection. And you're the type of seller that would not under any circumstances sell a card to anyone, even if you suspected alteration on it, whether the grading company picked it up or not and most importantly you champion that cause and help promote that kind of integrity as well as practicing it in the card hobby. Unfortunately, the concept of 'it's not my problem' is not viable to you but to many, whether selling graded or ungraded material. Your way is the exception, and certainly not the rule in this hobby, any more than in yours.

 

 

[MW1]

MW1, I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I hope you do not bid on any of my future CGC or CGG auctions. Although you seem like a very honest and ethical guy, I really don't want to deal with buyers that question the validity of CGC's or CGG's grades and restoration check. Not that they cannot make mistakes, sure they can, but you are bidding and buying a book knowing that possibility.

I understand what you're saying and I don't think there's any question that we view buying and selling quite differently. I see auctions as more than a mere validation of the grade on a holder. I see it as an opportunity for a seller to extol the virtues of condition and point out any discrepancies in grade. In essence, I view the sale of graded comics that same as I would the sale of ungraded comics. I expect fair and accurate grading, not just from a company like CGG, but from the seller himself. And you're exactly right -- when I bid on ANY item, there is the possibility that it is altered or restored...but that doesn't give the seller carte blanche in passing off defective merchandise.

 

 

If all buyers felt like you do about this, CGG and CGC and all the others would go out of business as people like me would quit submitting. The whole reason that I do submit to these companies is in order to AVOID the problem you are having now.

Well, with all the graded comics I have purchased over the last year, I have yet to return any of them. Two of them I felt were overgraded a bit, but it didn't bother me that much. I am cognizant of the fact that a certain amount of subjectivity is always present in the grading process. As far as avoiding a problem, I don't see where there is a conflict. If you know how to grade and you buy and sell consistently graded comics, I don't foresee any difficulties. If, however, you see standardized grading as a way to maximize your profits on anything that comes your way -- for fairly and overgraded books alike -- then we have a very decisive difference of opinion.

 

 

After thinking about it more, I say just accept your book, do not hold the seller responsible, and take it as a learning experience.

If the comic is altered (and I believe it is), why does it matter whether or not it is professionally graded? Do the slabs of plastic not only protect the comic but insulate the seller from returns on altered merchandise?

 

 

Apparently, from now on you cannot even buy a slabbed book online.

I've purchased quite a few graded comics online and I will continue to buy them. If I'm offered a graded book that is altered, I see that as no different than buying an ungraded book that is altered. Third party grading should serve as a guide -- if even an expert guide -- and not as the Rosetta stone of all comic grading nomenclature.

 

 

Stick with the books you can see and hold in person at comic cons, comic stores and private dealers that you come across.

I do not attend shows and I have only been in one comic shop in the last 10 years. Nearly everything I buy is online.

[burntboy]

We still hold sellers accountable for what they sell.

No, you're not. You're putting 100% of the responsibility with the grading company. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

 

i read Donut's statements to mean that he believe's that 100% of the GRADING responsibility belongs to the Grading company. at least that's how i interpret it and agree.

 

how do i know if a book that i purchase and flip is restored since it's in a slab which attests to the fact that it's not restored. who am i to argue with the experts. isn't that what they are around for - to offer their opinions on both grading and resto?? and once they do and i then decide to sell the book, why would i be responsible for some hobbyist's opinion that they disagree with the grade or believe they can detect resto through the slab???

 

i suppose the best sellers would just take the book back and sell it to someone else, but there are lots of different sellers out there and i wouldn't condemn one who refused to refund for a slabbed book that was otherwise sound.......

[MW1]

i suppose the best sellers would just take the book back and sell it to someone else, but there are lots of different sellers out there and i wouldn't condemn one who refused to refund for a slabbed book that was otherwise sound.......

Right. But I wouldn't exactly call this CGG graded book "sound." Take a look at the images.

[BassGMan]

i suppose the best sellers would just take the book back and sell it to someone else, but there are lots of different sellers out there and i wouldn't condemn one who refused to refund for a slabbed book that was otherwise sound.......

Right. But I wouldn't exactly call this CGG graded book "sound." Take a look at the images.

 

I am still not convinced that this book is not sound or had been trimmed. Don't forget, those little scrapes could have come from damage. As I have said before, 9.4 or not I do not know, but this book is most likely a result of offset printing and perhaps a little damage. Trimming? Possible but I doubt it. I bet we could all take numerous offset books out of our collections, post up the scans, and then debate about it for hours how it could have been trimmed, restapled, taken apart or whatever. This book is probably just another example. But, I realize we are talking about the bigger picture, and not just this one example. Anyway, gotta get on to some other posts now. I'm worn out on this one. -----Sid

[Rip]

I haven't read the whole thread, but do you have better pictures where you consider possible trimming?