Moderns that are heating up on ebay! 71 71

[revat]

OK, something about 1:15...blah blah

 

So what does this mean RMA? Print run of 30,000..2,000 of these?

 

Or even less...one for every 15 a shop ordered...so if a shop ordered 6 copies, none for them, so the number is definitely less than 2,000

 

Or..., "we just don't know"?

 

I think RMA is saying that they print tons and tons of them and then distribute the amount based on how many a shop buys. Then later sell the rest at a discount to Diamond account holders

 

or possibly sold or distributed the extras to other venues.

 

I do think its generally safe to use sales numbers to guess print run relative to other comic variants (like there's usually more 1:10's printed than 1:100's printed or more variants printed for comics that sell 100K copies vs 20K copies), but with minimum printer amounts, overrages for misprints or late orders, and any number of other factors (like if part of Frank Miller's contract is that he gets an extra box of variants for him to have), or they're giving out a bunch to kids at the Disney company picnic, or DC REALLY wants to push this title/character, or they just want to be nice and throw in an extra copy for some premiere clients, who knows? Even knowing that, it might be hard to guess comics even with similar distribution numbers because you don't know if its a bunch of little stores ordering a few, or mostly big stores ordering a bunch, which obviously plays a factor in how many are initially ordered.

 

I think you can use the ratios and sales to 'generally' guess what is more rare or not rare, but I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions, and without knowing the variables that go into deciding how much to print, to even estimate a number seems pretty tough.

 

And some people here don't like it when you make unsupported estimates sound as though they are facts.

 

 

[Jaydogrules]

OK, something about 1:15...blah blah

 

So what does this mean RMA? Print run of 30,000..2,000 of these?

 

Or even less...one for every 15 a shop ordered...so if a shop ordered 6 copies, none for them, so the number is definitely less than 2,000

 

Or..., "we just don't know"?

 

I think RMA is saying that they print tons and tons of them and then distribute the amount based on how many a shop buys. Then later sell the rest at a discount to Diamond account holders

 

If that's what he's saying he's wrong. Not only would that be incredibly wasteful it would be stupid. There's a reason Diamond has a "final order cut off" for retailers and that reason is so publishers will know how many books they need to print- that includes variants.

 

The variants are then printed in cases , 200-225 per case, and they are printed up to the nearest case. Whatever printing overages there are on books are usually minor.

 

Do publishers sometimes over print books and then burn them off in a variant offering once in a blue moon? Yes. But that is the extreme exception and not hardly the norm, and even more so now.

 

-J.

[21Pittsburgh58]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

[Jaydogrules]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

[ygogolak]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

No, there is no way to know the actual print run unless you are on the inside.

 

Think about it this way, the distribution number is 22,000. First, they wouldn't print a number like 1,467. It would be a round figure. Sometimes dealers get damaged copies and send them back for a replacement. That needs to be accounted for also.

Also, what if a shop only orders 14 copies, or 2, and they don't qualify for the 1:15. That's one less that get's "printed". But, as I said earlier, they wouldn't print that exact anyway.

Edited March 15, 2016 by ygogolak

[revat]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

good question, I think that's where some of the confusion lies.

 

Print Run - the actual number of books printed by the printer. This number seems very very difficult to know, unless you work at the printer or paid for the actual printing of books, or are an accountant for one of those parties. Of course though, this number is likely BASED on the number of books actually ordered, but there could be a million other things that affect the print run.

 

Generally, regardless of the order size, some percentage more will be printed OVER the order size to make up for potentially defective books. Of course the number of defective books affects how many books are actually shipped out. And in many cases, there are probably ordering thresholds for print runs (eg the printer charges you the same whether you print 28K copies or 30K copies), or discounts that make it worth it to over print (eg if you pay for 100K copies we'll toss in 5K copies for 1/3 the price).

 

Distribution Ratios for Variants - 1:10, for every 10 regular books of a certain title you order, you have the opportunity to buy 1 variant at the same price. If you buy only 9, you don't get that opportunity. So if your store ordered 40-49 copies, your store would have the opportunity to buy four 1:10 variants.

 

So while variant print runs are likely 'based' on the amount ordered, there's just so many things that go into it, that fashion a guess is very very tough, though obviously it makes sense that there usually SOME correlation, but the formulas used for calculating don't seem to be public knowledge (and would guess change fairly regularly and are constantly being renegotiated). Additionally, the numbers from comicron are generally just from North America...

 

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Revat

[darkstar]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

[Jaydogrules]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

[Lonzilla]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

I'd think the cover artists get some copies for themselves. Hmmm here's a thought, how many ASM 700 Ditko covers do you think Stan Lee got to sign, slab and sell? I'm sure he can get 100 copies of any variant that he wants

[darkstar]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

 

Want to bet what? That you are just pulling numbers out of the air? And then compounding the problem by attempting to figure out what they do in case of incentive variants?

[Jaydogrules]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

I'd think the cover artists get some copies for themselves. Hmmm here's a thought, how many ASM 700 Ditko covers do you think Stan Lee got to sign, slab and sell? I'm sure he can get 100 copies of any variant that he wants

 

Maybe? Like I said, event books or "#1's" would be the rare exception. And certainly whatever unaccounted/un-ordered printing overages may very well get handed out to employees or creators. But we would be talking copies in the dozens not in the hundreds, and not remotely in the thousands. Publishers do not print books they have no intention of distributing. Anyone who suggests otherwise is out of their minds.

 

-J.

[jreezy]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

No, there is no way to know the actual print run unless you are on the inside.

 

Think about it this way, the distribution number is 22,000. First, they wouldn't print a number like 1,467. It would be a round figure. Sometimes dealers get damaged copies and send them back for a replacement. That needs to be accounted for also.

Also, what if a shop only orders 14 copies, or 2, and they don't qualify for the 1:15. That's one less that get's "printed". But, as I said earlier, they wouldn't print that exact anyway.

 

wife works for disney/marvel. Even she does not know. Honestly, i dont think she even cares or listens when I ask her questions like this.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Who is yelling? Why are you using provocative language?

 

 

 

No need to be offended.

 

 

 

WTF? Provocative? Do you even..... nope. No. NO. I've seen enough garbage posts where people bait people, not falling for it, and besides, you CONFIRMED my statement was true while trying to make yourself a part of the conversation.

HA,

You need to dial it back a bit.

 

Hi pot, I'm Kettle. If you wanna verbally spar, pm me. I am always up for any debate.

 

Your responses here indicate 1. you're somewhere between 15-22, and 2. you have a decent lack of self-awareness (though that seems to be the overused phrase-du-jour around here at the moment.)

 

It's straightforward: if you post misinformation, it will likely be corrected. It's nothing personal, and nothing to be offended by. If that isn't something that is tolerable for you without using provocative language ("you can yell all you want", etc.), you might reconsider posting on message boards.

 

What it is not, however, is "bait." That leads me to believe that both points I just stated are correct. No one here is excited but you.

 

Take a deep breath. Relax. In and out.

 

Can we please keep this thread on topic?

 

If you want to keep on topic, by all means, keep on topic.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I believe they were talking about the regular cover. There are a few variants, and the wop variant, being a % of previous order variant, may be the lowest print run. The 1:15 is the highest ratio incentive.

 

Incentive variants are not printed according to their distribution ratio. Those are distribution numbers, not print run numbers.

 

I'm just wondering what definitive source you originally received this information from that has you so convinced that it is (still) true, to the point of repeating your thoughts on the matter ad nauseum, in multiple treads and forums. I.E., why are you so convinced that publishers routinely print books that they have no intention of distributing?

 

-J.

 

No one said anything at all like "publishers routinely print books that they have no intention of distributing." Nothing even remotely like that has been claimed by anyone.

 

That is a conclusion to which you have leapt, and it's not justified by the various conversations about the topic. You cannot invent ideas out of thin air, then put those ideas in the virtual mouths of others, and expect to be taken seriously. And you do this on a regular basis (the latest being the "no one pays a premium for white pages" debacle.)

 

If you start with an invalid premise, necessarily everything that follows will also be invalid.

[darkstar]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

I'd think the cover artists get some copies for themselves. Hmmm here's a thought, how many ASM 700 Ditko covers do you think Stan Lee got to sign, slab and sell? I'm sure he can get 100 copies of any variant that he wants

 

Maybe? Like I said, event books or "#1's" would be the rare exception. And certainly whatever unaccounted/un-ordered printing overages may very well get handed out to employees or creators. But we would be talking copies in the dozens not in the hundreds, and not remotely in the thousands.

-J.

 

What about all those incentive variants found in the multi-packs at Five Below? How many of those were there Jay? Where did they come from?

 

 

[jreezy]

 

People on here always get so upset when the voice of reason comes along.

 

When I find the "voice of reason", I'll be sure to have him contact you.

 

You ARE the guy who gets an Orange placed in front of them, and convinces yourself it's a banana.

 

[Jaydogrules]

Actually, what is the difference between print run and distribution? And yes, I really am asking that question.

 

So if a book is sold as 1:15, for every 15 books bought you get 1 variant. If Comichron lists a run at 22,000, that means they print 1,467 copies of the 1:15 variant, right?. Is there a way to actually know what a 'print run' is?

 

Thanks for your insight because I'm always confused as to what the argument is between print run and distribution (not that it takes a lot to confuse me).

 

Other than printing overages to account for possible damaged copies and printing up to the nearest full case of 200-225, there isn't much difference between the two. Comichron doesn't account for UK sales, but realistically that would only add about another 10% or so to the number you see on comichron. Are there exceptions to this rule of thumb ? Of course, especially with big event books or "#1's". But again , those are the exception and not the norm.

 

-J.

 

all of this is nonsense

 

Wanna bet?

 

The view must be nice from that peanut gallery you live in.

 

-J.

I'd think the cover artists get some copies for themselves. Hmmm here's a thought, how many ASM 700 Ditko covers do you think Stan Lee got to sign, slab and sell? I'm sure he can get 100 copies of any variant that he wants

 

Maybe? Like I said, event books or "#1's" would be the rare exception. And certainly whatever unaccounted/un-ordered printing overages may very well get handed out to employees or creators. But we would be talking copies in the dozens not in the hundreds, and not remotely in the thousands.

-J.

 

What about all those incentive variants found in the multi-packs at Five Below? How many of those were there Jay? Where did they come from?

 

 

What about them ? Whatever minor printing overages there are on the occasional book can end up in one of those packs or in a Diamond variant sell off. As a percentage of variants that publishers print it is an absolutely infinitesimal amount. Infinitesimal. These are the rare exception and not the rule.

 

And again, if you think publishers are deliberately over printing variants on a regular basis for the sole purpose of blowing them out for a fraction of cover price months or years later, you are loco in the coco.

 

-J.

[the blob]

So what is the answer RMA?

 

Let's say a book has a non-variant print run of 30000 (to fill orders for 29K?), on a 1:15 would they print 2000 plus some sort of rounding up for extras to give out to friends, to replace damaged copies, etc., maybe 2250?

 

Or do you think it might be more like 3000? 2500?

 

Or is every issue going to be wildly different?

 

It doesn't make a difference to me, I do not pay a premium for these unless some cover blows me away and maybe it's $5, I am just curious what your understanding is. I am going to assume you looked into it.

[revat]

here's an example that hopefully seems reasonable. Note that numbers are estimates used to illustrate the point.

 

Two monthly titles - Batman 100K monthly ordered, and Sinestro 20K monthly ordered.

 

there's gonna be 1:10 variants for both in 2 months from now.

 

So for every 10 copies your store orders, the store will have the OPPORTUNITY to buy a 1:10 variant.

 

Batman - 80% of stores order at least 10 copies, and 50% of those order more than 20 copies. Of course not every order is in increments of ten, so lets say out of the 100K ordered, there are 70,000 comics ordered in increments of ten. And of those increments of ten, 10,000 did not result in the ordering of the variant. So now you have 60,0000 comics ordered in increments of 10 that resulted in an ORDER for a 1:10 variant. This means that 6,000 variants were ordered, let say the true number ORDERED is 6001.

 

The printer only takes orders in increments of 500 when printing between 5K-15K comics. So the ORDERED amount is now 6500. BUT the printer has to print 5% extra for returns/defective copies, which they give to diamond either way. So the total print run is 6825, ASSUMING they didn't print more for another purpose, and not taking into account how many damaged copies/returns there actually are. But they also might build in an order bubble for late orders or to give to big dealers, etc. And the ratios of minimum ordering, or ordering for discounts may change from month to month or year to year.

 

 

Sinestro - only 30% of stores order 10 or more, and only 40% of those order 20 or more. So out of 20K sold, only 7K result in increments of 10. But only 5K result in orders of the variant, so thats 500 variants, lets say 499. So they round up to the nearest hundred, so that's 500 ordered. Then they print 10% more for errors on orders under 1000, so that's 550.

 

 

In summary, the Batman 1:10 was actually printed at 6,825 per 100,000

and Sinestro 1:10 was actually printed at 550 per 20,000

and that's with a LOT of assumptions minimum orders, error overstock, increments ordered by stores, number of stores, and not taking into account how many were damaged, how many extras are ordered for staff, creators, archives, or other special promotions or events, backups. It also doesn't include any printer discounts or economies of scale or other contractual issues.

 

And honestly, i have no idea if my assumptions are remotely reasonable, though I think they sound reasonable.

 

So I guess if you wanted to say the 1:10 print run is USUALLY somewhere between 1 and 10% of the total number ordered, I don't that's too unreasonable. But I also don't think there's too much value to that. And of course there are exceptions.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2016 by Revat

[ygogolak]

Man, I wish someone would have mentioned this book a week or so ago....

http://www.ebay.com/itm/391402405604?rmvSB=true