Moderns that are heating up on ebay! 71 71

[juggernaut]

Hey guys...its been noted earlier Henchgirl has been picking up speed recently either print run or the TV whispers.

 

Just wanted to see whether anyone knew for sure what issue would be recognised as a true 1st as there seems to be three.

 

Henchgirl 1 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Henchgirl-1-First-Published-By-Kristen-Gudsnuk-First-Appearance-/152102083996?hash=item2369fd9d9c:g:SrkAAOSwDV1XRHDQ

 

Henchgirl 1 Scout Copy 2500 ish copies

 

Henchgirl 1 Ashcan Edition

 

I was waiting for someone to figure it out. I just didn't want to be the one to give the bad news.

 

Little secret. Henchgirl #1 was produced in 2013. The comic above is the true 1st appearance. The comic was produced in black & white. Then it was picked up by Scout Comics.

 

Once again, do your research.

[Mockingjay]

[paul747]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

 

[juggernaut]

Hey guys...its been noted earlier Henchgirl has been picking up speed recently either print run or the TV whispers.

 

Just wanted to see whether anyone knew for sure what issue would be recognised as a true 1st as there seems to be three.

 

Henchgirl 1 http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Henchgirl-1-First-Published-By-Kristen-Gudsnuk-First-Appearance-/152102083996?hash=item2369fd9d9c:g:SrkAAOSwDV1XRHDQ

 

Henchgirl 1 Scout Copy 2500 ish copies

 

Henchgirl 1 Ashcan Edition

 

I was waiting for someone to figure it out. I just didn't want to be the one to give the bad news.

 

Little secret. Henchgirl #1 was produced in 2013. The comic above is the true 1st appearance. The comic was produced in black & white. Then it was picked up by Scout Comics.

 

Once again, do your research.

 

Oh yeah, most of you want evidence.

 

- Look closely and you will see #1 thru 5.

 

Henchgirl #1

[paul747]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

[paul747]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint,, initial orders, FOC ... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

You can make educated guesses and label them as such !! based on very good conversations with the only distributor !! Edited May 24, 2016 by paul747

[paul747]

Any one can read this RMA....

 

Q: How does Comichron derive the actual sales figures?

 

A: The same way everyone else did for years: with reports from one or more publishers on what they actually sold to distributors, the entire chart can be unlocked. I began my monthly decoding of the charts in September 1996, and have been working to gather the information needed to figure out earlier months.

 

Q: How accurate are the sales estimates?

 

A: Before February 2003, Diamond was reporting preorders, and in that era, the margin of error was higher. I used a basket of publishers' actual sales figures to derive a likely estimate for the Order Index Numbers — and found that there was significant variance because the publishers did not get their purchase orders at the same time relative to the moment Diamond calculated its charts. But after that date, Diamond switched to reporting final orders — and while that meant that the charts came out later than they did in the preorder days, suddenly, all the variance between publishers' reports vanished. This is why estimates computed by Comichron, ICV2, and ComicBookPage are often identical. The same math obtains everywhere now.

 

Q: What is included in the Diamond monthly charts?

 

A: Beginning in February 2003, the Diamond charts report the number of copies it shipped to retailers from its warehouses in North America during the calendar month. Sometimes, the books may actually arrive in the next calendar month, but they're invoiced based on the day they leave the facilities. So occasionally you'll see a January where the first week's sales actually are reported with December.

 

Q: What is NOT included in the Diamond monthly charts?

 

A: This is important, because it is a topic often misunderstood. Not included are:

 

• copies shipped outside the calendar month, including most reorders

 

• copies sold outside North America; the UK market often adds 10% or so

 

• copies sold outside the comics shop distribution network, such as on newsstands, in bookstores, or by postal subscription

 

• and anything digital. There is no source for digital sales figures.

 

MORE INFO

 

If you think there was more than 4 cases of this variant printed please study math? better yet ill give you something to argue about, please tell me how more than 1000 1:50 variants could have been printed? common sense and some clues is not complete trash !

Edited May 24, 2016 by paul747

[Jaydogrules]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

Why should he when it's easier to simply declare someone "wrong" whilst simultaneously mistaking (and representing) his own (uninformed) opinions as "facts"?

 

-J.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

 

 

 

Yes:

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/15/marvel-liquidates-miracleman-1-10-in-all-its-variants/

 

That says different, as do other sales over the years like it, as well as the publishers' use of variants in various, non-incentive manners. It demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that Marvel prints a non-negligible amount more than what is needed to fulfill the retailer incentive program.

 

But, regardless, in any scholarly debate, the onus isn't upon the one challenging the claim to DISprove the claim....but upon the claimant to prove it, when challenged.

 

So....if print run information is kept secret by Marvel, DC, and others...how do you demonstrate that the incentive print runs are tied to the sales in North America of Direct market copies?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

Why should he when it's easier to simply declare someone "wrong" whilst simultaneously mistaking (and representing) his own (uninformed) opinions as "facts"?

 

-J.

 

 

Already done. See post directly above.

 

[Aweandlorder]

[paul747]

And RMA.... I really dont mind you and when your not a repetitive robot i have got some great stuff from you ! your CM17 stash is nice.... love that book !

Edited May 25, 2016 by paul747

[paul747]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

 

 

 

Yes:

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/15/marvel-liquidates-miracleman-1-10-in-all-its-variants/

 

That says different, as do other sales over the years like it, as well as the publishers' use of variants in various, non-incentive manners. It demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that Marvel prints a non-negligible amount more than what is needed to fulfill the retailer incentive program.

 

But, regardless, in any scholarly debate, the onus isn't upon the one challenging the claim to DISprove the claim....but upon the claimant to prove it, when challenged.

 

So....if print run information is kept secret by Marvel, DC, and others...how do you demonstrate that the incentive print runs are tied to the sales in North America of Direct market copies?

bleeding cool ! thats your proof

I am saying they print more !

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by paul747

[RockMyAmadeus]

Any one can read this RMA....

 

Q: How does Comichron derive the actual sales figures?

 

A: The same way everyone else did for years: with reports from one or more publishers on what they actually sold to distributors, the entire chart can be unlocked. I began my monthly decoding of the charts in September 1996, and have been working to gather the information needed to figure out earlier months.

 

Q: How accurate are the sales estimates?

 

A: Before February 2003, Diamond was reporting preorders, and in that era, the margin of error was higher. I used a basket of publishers' actual sales figures to derive a likely estimate for the Order Index Numbers and found that there was significant variance because the publishers did not get their purchase orders at the same time relative to the moment Diamond calculated its charts. But after that date, Diamond switched to reporting final orders and while that meant that the charts came out later than they did in the preorder days, suddenly, all the variance between publishers' reports vanished. This is why estimates computed by Comichron, ICV2, and ComicBookPage are often identical. The same math obtains everywhere now.

 

Q: What is included in the Diamond monthly charts?

 

A: Beginning in February 2003, the Diamond charts report the number of copies it shipped to retailers from its warehouses in North America during the calendar month. Sometimes, the books may actually arrive in the next calendar month, but they're invoiced based on the day they leave the facilities. So occasionally you'll see a January where the first week's sales actually are reported with December.

 

Q: What is NOT included in the Diamond monthly charts?

 

A: This is important, because it is a topic often misunderstood. Not included are:

 

copies shipped outside the calendar month, including most reorders

 

copies sold outside North America; the UK market often adds 10% or so

 

copies sold outside the comics shop distribution network, such as on newsstands, in bookstores, or by postal subscription

 

and anything digital. There is no source for digital sales figures.

 

MORE INFO

 

If you think there was more than 4 cases of this variant printed please study math? better yet ill give you something to argue about, please tell me how more than 1000 1:50 variants could have been printed? common sense and some clues is not complete trash !

 

 

Paul: you can disagree with people without becoming dismissive. Honest.

 

The information you've posted isn't relevant to this discussion, because it isn't in dispute. No one questions that Comichron posts estimated sales of comics in North America sold via the Direct market.

 

The problem is in trying to use those numbers...which are not print numbers (so you're automatically starting on shaky ground)...as a platform for figuring out the print run of the incentive variants based on their distribution ratios.

 

As to "how more than 1,000 1:50 variants could have been printed", the answer is straightforward: Marvel would have told them to.

 

Did they? No clue. And that's the point: no one but Marvel and the printer knows how many were printed. That's the whole point of the discussion.

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

 

 

 

Yes:

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/15/marvel-liquidates-miracleman-1-10-in-all-its-variants/

 

That says different, as do other sales over the years like it, as well as the publishers' use of variants in various, non-incentive manners. It demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that Marvel prints a non-negligible amount more than what is needed to fulfill the retailer incentive program.

 

But, regardless, in any scholarly debate, the onus isn't upon the one challenging the claim to DISprove the claim....but upon the claimant to prove it, when challenged.

 

So....if print run information is kept secret by Marvel, DC, and others...how do you demonstrate that the incentive print runs are tied to the sales in North America of Direct market copies?

bleeding cool ! thats your proof

I am saying they print more !

 

 

So, you don't think that Marvel sold off all of its Miracleman incentive variants after their initial distribution? Are you disputing that that happened? You're saying that sale did NOT take place, correct...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

And RMA.... I really dont mind you and when your not a repetitive robot i have got some great stuff from you ! your CM17 stash is nice.... love that book !

 

 

I feel the same about you when you're not being a repetitive robot. You have some neat books.

 

[paul747]

Bleeding cools site trips my virus protection . No one but diamond knows the final order cutoff numbers on incentive variants. but if you use the retail delivery numbers as a clue as well as damage and know the case pack number you can make a pretty good assumption...in this case even if 300 groups of fifty where ordered min would be a overprint of 150 books... you have a lot to take into account but if you put reasonable logic into the formula with the clues you can come close ... The case pack is a pretty solid X in the formula.

[paul747]

And RMA.... I really dont mind you and when your not a repetitive robot i have got some great stuff from you ! your CM17 stash is nice.... love that book !

 

 

I feel the same about you when you're not being a repetitive robot. You have some neat books.

[paul747]

Jays number on the variant is probaly real close. 2 cases of 200... It is a logical guess. And there was probably hundred plus that where still sitting at diamond. It could still be a small print.

 

The retail program is not a fraud but as stated they order to the closest case pack.

 

Some of you guys are crazy !! 450/675 is a good guess... key word used above is GUESS ! its not a stretch ! And chuck can I ask what kind of relationship you have with your diamond rep? its a fact they will not give you the exact print run but they will tell you in detail how things work. In my 14 years of dealing with them I have gotten some very valuable information from people that have advanced to higher positions in that company ! I believe it to be reliable... Larry has some communication issues but most of what he says about diamond is spot on.

 

To say that the retail program is a fraud is crazy.... the variants print runs are in case packs and estimated... when the incentive numbers come in lower than estimations there are surplus. The surplus then is usually liquidated in one form or another to at least cover some costs.

 

I bet some of the variant ordering is done with common sense and common sense on the book in question including the London boys would be 450/675 and because of the low print numbers that would explain the surplus.

 

JOURNEY INTO MYSTERY #633 VENOM VAR

MARVEL COMICS

(W) Kieron Gillen (A) Richard Elson (CA) TBD

THE SON OF SATAN GUEST-STARS!

 

Case Pack

225

 

estimated North America run 23,869

 

lets guess 10,000 everywhere else GUESS... 34,000 printed.. 150-160 cases... including damage or overrun. that would be 680 1:50 books... so to cover that number if every retailer ordered 50 copies they would need 4 cases... that's 1000 books. so depending on rest of the world print numbers and retailers order I dont think its anywhere near 1000...

 

 

Where is the print run info for overseas? that's a key number that would tighten up this argument... its been said over and over there are no hard numbers but there is common sense and information on how certain company's operate...

 

 

The ratios are distribution numbers...that is, how the books are distributed to retailers...not print numbers.

 

As said before, Comichron only records sales to North American shops via Diamond. Therefore, those numbers are not the print run of the books.

 

The distribution ratios are not tied to the print runs of the incentives, and never have been. Therefore, every attempt to tie those numbers together is in error from the start.

 

Indeed, there is common sense....but it's not common sense to make assumptions based on incomplete information, is it?

Hey RMA those numbers are used to create the print runs... then there is a certain damage or overprint percentage... the numbers most certainly are tied together please show me any info that SAYS DIFFERENT???

 

 

 

 

Yes:

 

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2015/05/15/marvel-liquidates-miracleman-1-10-in-all-its-variants/

 

That says different, as do other sales over the years like it, as well as the publishers' use of variants in various, non-incentive manners. It demonstrates, beyond any doubt, that Marvel prints a non-negligible amount more than what is needed to fulfill the retailer incentive program.

 

But, regardless, in any scholarly debate, the onus isn't upon the one challenging the claim to DISprove the claim....but upon the claimant to prove it, when challenged.

 

So....if print run information is kept secret by Marvel, DC, and others...how do you demonstrate that the incentive print runs are tied to the sales in North America of Direct market copies?

bleeding cool ! thats your proof

I am saying they print more !

 

 

So, you don't think that Marvel sold off all of its Miracleman incentive variants after their initial distribution? Are you disputing that that happened? You're saying that sale did NOT take place, correct...?

I bought variants in tons of these sales ! of course i believe it ! I know incentive variants are always printed in qtys more than they estimate the need at. Edited May 25, 2016 by paul747