Action #1 listed on C-link

[jdjunker]

Mitch,

 

I know the person who bought the 8.0 MP out of the Heritage auction last year fairly well, and most of your assumptions are not correct. The 8.0 MP is NOT the first Action 1 he has ever owned, and if I had to guess it probably will not be the last. The 2.2mil 9.0 sale is irrelevant when discussing what was paid for an 8.0 MP. The 9.0 sale actually happened 6 months after the 8.0 MP was purchased anyway and could not have played any part in the price that was paid for the 8.0 MP.

 

I don't want to speak for him (or anyone) but I think his primary reason for buying was not "investment" or "speculation" so much as it was that he wanted to own an Action 1. But if any Action 1 sales were used by the buyer to determine what he was willing to pay for the 8.0 MP I would imagine it was probably other restored sales such as the 6.5 MP that sold for $143k or the similar priced paid (years ago) for the 9.0 MP or any of the other public/private sales for restored AC 1s in recent years in the $100k+ price range. Not any of the 1.5/2.2mil sales.

 

I've never made my own feelings about restored books a secret. And personally I have been steering away from most restored books in recent years when I can afford to buy unrestored copies instead. But to call all restored books (especially all restored Action 1s) a bad investment I think is a mistake. With low grade (3.0-4.0 copies) Action 1s selling in the $300k-$450k range I look at a nice high grade restored Action 1 in the $140k-$150k range and can't imagine it going anywhere but UP in value!

 

Someone is going to wind up buying that book before long. And while I don't claim to be able to predict the future, assuming the book gets put it away for a few years I am going to guess that it will turn out to be a good investment for whoever buys it. There are only so many Action 1s to go around! And in this price range there are less and less of them!

 

If anything, the ever increasing prices paid for low to mid grade unrestored copies will continue to drag up the prices on restored copies too!

 

 

 

Fantastic post. This is the kind of thoughtful analysis and shared knowledge that makes this board great. Thank you.

[jdjunker]

I don't know if it was fishbone or somebody else, but someone said that overstreet has always said buy the best and skip the rest or words to that effect, but that is mistaken.

 

I'm not sure who said it, but whether or not it was attributed to the right person I don't think that is necessarily bad advice except for the part about skipping the rest! There is a long history in this hobby that shows that people who buy the best generally are the ones who see the best returns. (I doubt it will be all that long before a 9.0 Action 1 is worth $5mil and the person that bought it for 2.2mil recently will look like a genius) But if you can't afford to buy the best copy I also think another good strategy is to buy the copy that is the most affordable. There is NO shortage of people looking for Action 1s, Tec 27s, AF 15s etc that don't have millions of dollars to spend.

 

The highest graded copies will always draw in the people with the deepest pockets which will net you the best price. The most affordable copies will always draw in the largest pool of potential buyers, which will also help you net a good price if/when you go to sell.

 

I think he is referring to something I said. I made the case that the idea that the highest grade books will bring the highest return is advice that you could have gotten out of any Overstreet since about 1980.

 

I didn't add the "skip the rest" part, nor did I say that Overstreet has always said that.

 

In fact, in the 70s Overstreet used to run an analysis of the increase in the value of a title over a period of time. For example, he would compare the NM (he might have even still said Mint at this point) value of Action 1-100 at the time of the book and five years earlier. Overstreet then would contend that every dollar invested in that title would bring X rate of return, and he would contend that it held true across all grades.

 

He dropped the "across all grades" part somewhere around 1980 or so when it started to become clear that the higher grades were out performing the lower grades and he had to adjust from the 1-2-3 price range he had originally used.

[bluechip]

I don't know if it was fishbone or somebody else, but someone said that overstreet has always said buy the best and skip the rest or words to that effect, but that is mistaken.

 

I'm not sure who said it, but whether or not it was attributed to the right person I don't think that is necessarily bad advice except for the part about skipping the rest! There is a long history in this hobby that shows that people who buy the best generally are the ones who see the best returns. (I doubt it will be all that long before a 9.0 Action 1 is worth $5mil and the person that bought it for 2.2mil recently will look like a genius) But if you can't afford to buy the best copy I also think another good strategy is to buy the copy that is the most affordable. There is NO shortage of people looking for Action 1s, Tec 27s, AF 15s etc that don't have millions of dollars to spend.

 

The highest graded copies will always draw in the people with the deepest pockets which will net you the best price. The most affordable copies will always draw in the largest pool of potential buyers, which will also help you net a good price if/when you go to sell.

 

I think he is referring to something I said. I made the case that the idea that the highest grade books will bring the highest return is advice that you could have gotten out of any Overstreet since about 1980.

 

I didn't add the "skip the rest" part, nor did I say that Overstreet has always said that.

 

In fact, in the 70s Overstreet used to run an analysis of the increase in the value of a title over a period of time. For example, he would compare the NM (he might have even still said Mint at this point) value of Action 1-100 at the time of the book and five years earlier. Overstreet then would contend that every dollar invested in that title would bring X rate of return, and he would contend that it held true across all grades.

 

He dropped the "across all grades" part somewhere around 1980 or so when it started to become clear that the higher grades were out performing the lower grades and he had to adjust from the 1-2-3 price range he had originally used.

 

The way you describe it sounds familiar. Didn't mean that to imply you said to skip the rest. I was going off your acknowledgment of Mitch's advice being consistent with Overstreet, and Mitch's advice definitely carries a heavy implication that one should skip the rest if you want to see your collection's value increase.

 

I remember, in the same editions of the guide, overstreet advising people to have their books restored.

 

 

[jdjunker]

No worries bluechip, I was just trying to clarify what I said, so as not to leave the wrong impression.

[ComicConnoisseur]

Overstreet whom I have met, did help shape my collecting world BC. Talk about power this guy had the whole hobby by the "balls" for years. It was rumored that he would hold back the price of books he did not yet have, I never said it, it was talked about. Maybe that is where my viewpoint comes from. I always liked bob and believe me he was for comic book collecting all the way, until geppi threw a lot of money to him, you cannot blame him, but somehow I think guide became more about ads, than comic book prices.

Time moves on...

 

AMF, I hope EVERYBODY wins, and will remind you in 2014 that you were right, I just have a feeling that 350K for a restored book in less than two years in not gonna happen.

I always heard a strong rumor that Geppi and Overstreet controlled the EC market for years until the Gaines file copies came on the market, and threw a monkey wrench into their plans.

So yeah it`s probally more than just one market Overstreet/Geppi had power over. It should be an interesting decade to see how much of the Overstreet/Geppi influence will still have over the comic book market, as the internet makes their influence/power fade.

[G.A.tor]

It is more frustration than anger. I am in this for life, I believe that comic collectors need to do that-collect comics and price yes is part collecting life. I do not know who bought this book, but my concern is long term stability in our comic book world.

 

Things are going great now. We need to draw the line as to what really is acceptable and valuable down the collecting road for the next 20 years.

 

Somebody needs to take a stand and not let things just go on with so much confusion and anger.we need to stick together as we are in the same boat.

 

This action comics #1 is good comic book for the record, its just nowhere near a $150,000.00 comic book, and if it really is...we are in trouble

 

given that a 6.5 mod (albeit the court copy, but a 6.5 mod none the less) sold for almost 150K

 

given that this 8.0 mod already sold for 149K

 

given that another high grade restored action 1 has privately sold for 150K...

 

I would say that these type of books ARE already a 150K copy...so while anyone is entitled to their opinion, if empirical evidence already has been established, then the only reasonable conclusion is that the opinion is wrong!

 

and I don't believe we are in trouble, I believe folks are realizing the relative value compared to unrestored counterparts that can't be touched for 8x this price!

 

folks also are "smart" enough, generally, to realize that a mod restored 8.0 (or vf range) had to be at least a 3.0 or 4.0 to start with...and that copy (the exact same copy that has been restored) would sell for 2x or more the 155K asking price....

 

so it is naive to think that restored books not only don't have a place in the market, but will potentially "dominate" sales in the market as unrestored copies price themselves out of reach...

 

the only "trouble " we are in for is too much demand and not enough supply, and escalating prices on lower grade unrestored and higher grade restored mega keys

 

and as I pointed out in a previous post, that actually is already the case that restored mega keys outsell unrestored mega keys now, and generally at greater returns on "investment"...

 

now, do I think folks should today, take a 3.0 and restore it to an 8.0... NO.... but books that already exist in that state, are not only sound purchases, they can bring GREAT joy to the owners, that otherwise would never be able to "sniff" a nice looking action 1 (or insert any mega key) (thumbs u

[Timely]

There really is no value per say in the restored book

 

 

 

No...there is less value, not no value.

[Spiderphill]

It is more frustration than anger. I am in this for life, I believe that comic collectors need to do that-collect comics and price yes is part collecting life. I do not know who bought this book, but my concern is long term stability in our comic book world.

 

Things are going great now. We need to draw the line as to what really is acceptable and valuable down the collecting road for the next 20 years.

 

Somebody needs to take a stand and not let things just go on with so much confusion and anger.we need to stick together as we are in the same boat.

 

This action comics #1 is good comic book for the record, its just nowhere near a $150,000.00 comic book, and if it really is...we are in trouble

 

given that a 6.5 mod (albeit the court copy, but a 6.5 mod none the less) sold for almost 150K

 

given that this 8.0 mod already sold for 149K

 

given that another high grade restored action 1 has privately sold for 150K...

 

I would say that these type of books ARE already a 150K copy...so while anyone is entitled to their opinion, if empirical evidence already has been established, then the only reasonable conclusion is that the opinion is wrong!

 

and I don't believe we are in trouble, I believe folks are realizing the relative value compared to unrestored counterparts that can't be touched for 8x this price!

 

folks also are "smart" enough, generally, to realize that a mod restored 8.0 (or vf range) had to be at least a 3.0 or 4.0 to start with...and that copy (the exact same copy that has been restored) would sell for 2x or more the 155K asking price....

 

so it is naive to think that restored books not only don't have a place in the market, but will potentially "dominate" sales in the market as unrestored copies price themselves out of reach...

 

the only "trouble " we are in for is too much demand and not enough supply, and escalating prices on lower grade unrestored and higher grade restored mega keys

 

and as I pointed out in a previous post, that actually is already the case that restored mega keys outsell unrestored mega keys now, and generally at greater returns on "investment"...

 

now, do I think folks should today, take a 3.0 and restore it to an 8.0... NO.... but books that already exist in that state, are not only sound purchases, they can bring GREAT joy to the owners, that otherwise would never be able to "sniff" a nice looking action 1 (or insert any mega key) (thumbs u

Gator, on the gpa site it shows a .5 complete action 1 that sold for 10k in 2004. Is that a 100k book now?

[G.A.tor]

Gator, on the gpa site it shows a .5 complete action 1 that sold for 10k in 2004. Is that a 100k book now?

 

given that the .5 ext incomplete copy sold for 43K or so, my guess is a .5 "complete" really can't be "complete" to be a .5 I don't recall this copy, but if it is like that superman 1 that is a .5 and "relatively" complete, then I suspect it might push 100K

[supapimp]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM. he thinks restored books is not a good buy. then those who buy restored books should be happy. i think whoever buys the restored A1's will need to go long on the book. $150K investment in 10-15 years will see a good return.

[Silver Surfer]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM.

 

Hate is a strong word and he is entitled to his opinion but then so are we especially when his delivery of his opinion is usually misinformed and full of windbag nonsense. Don't forget multiple edits of said nonsense.

[Transplant]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM. he thinks restored books is not a good buy. then those who buy restored books should be happy. i think whoever buys the restored A1's will need to go long on the book. $150K investment in 10-15 years will see a good return.

Perhaps you will supply Mitch some TP?

[bluechip]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM. he thinks restored books is not a good buy. then those who buy restored books should be happy. i think whoever buys the restored A1's will need to go long on the book. $150K investment in 10-15 years will see a good return.

Perhaps you will supply Mitch some TP?

 

I agree with another poster that hate is a strong word but the TP reference here should explain the hard feelings, because it refers to Mitch's very determined efforts to label restored books, low grade books and even mid-grade books as "toilet paper" and he's gone further to say that certain titles and types of books are also TP -- basically, that if it's not something he might be selling someday (or in secret today) it is toilet paper, and nobody must ever buy anything he labels TP because they need to save their money for his "gold."

 

The defense of that behavior always seems to be something like "then people buying the stuff he slams should be happy." or, as a former CGC guy said, it makes those books (the ones he never collected) more "affordable."

 

Now, I don't know about you, but if I have something I need to sell or anticipate I might need to sell at some time, I sure as hell don't think I should pat a guy on the back for making disingenuous efforts to make what I am selling "more affordable." Lots of people on this board have restored keys and they have every right to present those books for sale without somebody misrepresenting them as being "worthless" when, in fact, the greatest threat to their value is not the natural response people have to it but the incessant and misleading cries that they are worthless by the people who want to MAKE them worthless.

 

 

[showcase22gr1959]

Gator, on the gpa site it shows a .5 complete action 1 that sold for 10k in 2004. Is that a 100k book now?

 

given that the .5 ext incomplete copy sold for 43K or so, my guess is a .5 "complete" really can't be "complete" to be a .5 I don't recall this copy, but if it is like that superman 1 that is a .5 and "relatively" complete, then I suspect it might push 100K

 

Didn't the 1.8 blue label sell for $110K recently? I would think a very presentable and complete 1.0 blue can fetch $100K, but a not so complete .5 blue under $70K?

[G.A.tor]

Gator, on the gpa site it shows a .5 complete action 1 that sold for 10k in 2004. Is that a 100k book now?

 

given that the .5 ext incomplete copy sold for 43K or so, my guess is a .5 "complete" really can't be "complete" to be a .5 I don't recall this copy, but if it is like that superman 1 that is a .5 and "relatively" complete, then I suspect it might push 100K

 

Didn't the 1.8 blue label sell for $110K recently? I would think a very presentable and complete 1.0 blue can fetch $100K, but a not so complete .5 blue under $70K?

it was about 2 years ago that the kind of fugly looking 1.8 sold for 118K (give or take)...

 

but 2 years later, even a complete .5 action 1 ,dependong on how it presents, might clip 100K

[Crowzilla]

Overstreet whom I have met

 

Great Gunga galunga

what was it like?

Did he tell you that you would receive total consciousness on your deathbed?

At least you have that going for you.

 

[showcase22gr1959]

Gator, on the gpa site it shows a .5 complete action 1 that sold for 10k in 2004. Is that a 100k book now?

 

given that the .5 ext incomplete copy sold for 43K or so, my guess is a .5 "complete" really can't be "complete" to be a .5 I don't recall this copy, but if it is like that superman 1 that is a .5 and "relatively" complete, then I suspect it might push 100K

 

Didn't the 1.8 blue label sell for $110K recently? I would think a very presentable and complete 1.0 blue can fetch $100K, but a not so complete .5 blue under $70K?

it was about 2 years ago that the kind of fugly looking 1.8 sold for 118K (give or take)...

 

but 2 years later, even a complete .5 action 1 ,dependong on how it presents, might clip 100K

 

I agree, that copy was holding to it's life in the spine. I'm aware of the $118K sell and recently the same copy sold again for $110K.

[Cat-Man_America]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM. he thinks restored books is not a good buy. then those who buy restored books should be happy. i think whoever buys the restored A1's will need to go long on the book. $150K investment in 10-15 years will see a good return.

Perhaps you will supply Mitch some TP?

 

I agree with another poster that hate is a strong word but the TP reference here should explain the hard feelings, because it refers to Mitch's very determined efforts to label restored books, low grade books and even mid-grade books as "toilet paper" and he's gone further to say that certain titles and types of books are also TP -- basically, that if it's not something he might be selling someday (or in secret today) it is toilet paper, and nobody must ever buy anything he labels TP because they need to save their money for his "gold."

 

The defense of that behavior always seems to be something like "then people buying the stuff he slams should be happy." or, as a former CGC guy said, it makes those books (the ones he never collected) more "affordable."

 

Now, I don't know about you, but if I have something I need to sell or anticipate I might need to sell at some time, I sure as hell don't think I should pat a guy on the back for making disingenuous efforts to make what I am selling "more affordable." Lots of people on this board have restored keys and they have every right to present those books for sale without somebody misrepresenting them as being "worthless" when, in fact, the greatest threat to their value is not the natural response people have to it but the incessant and misleading cries that they are worthless by the people who want to MAKE them worthless.

 

 

 

In fairness, I do think Mitch has backed off from this position somewhat, but I do differ with him strongly about the limited prospects for restored books.

 

Mitch just missed the boat on this one. That ship sailed and he's still standing on the dock checking his watch.

 

In the area of restoration Mitch just doesn't see the market and it's growth potential the way I'm perceiving it. Not everyone will agree with my POV either, but from my perspective the restoration market has the best bargains and loads of potential when full disclosure via 3rd party grading is added into the mix. The key of course, is the quality of restoration and the continued insistence on full disclosure.

 

Judging from what we're seeing at the auction level, especially for rarer GA comics, professional restoration seems to be achieving general acceptance and the respectability that has long been reserved for perishable documents and collectible paper memorabilia in the antiquities trade. No one thinks twice about appraisers estimating equitable values for professionally restored art, maps, posters and rare books as a means of preservation and presentation. Why should comics be different?

 

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point professional restoration is seen to increase the value of rarer mid-grade comics that require modest amounts of work to enhance and preserve appearance.

 

We aren't quite there yet, but we've come a long way since the wild-west days of undisclosed amateur restoration. This is one of the key advantages that CGC grading brings to the table. Full disclosure combined with the skyrocketing values ascribed to rare collectibles in grade makes professional restoration an attractive alternative to unrestored books when the demand for quality outstrips the supply.

[Mr. 10%]

i still don't understand all the hate on MM. he thinks restored books is not a good buy. then those who buy restored books should be happy. i think whoever buys the restored A1's will need to go long on the book. $150K investment in 10-15 years will see a good return.

Perhaps you will supply Mitch some TP?

 

I agree with another poster that hate is a strong word but the TP reference here should explain the hard feelings, because it refers to Mitch's very determined efforts to label restored books, low grade books and even mid-grade books as "toilet paper" and he's gone further to say that certain titles and types of books are also TP -- basically, that if it's not something he might be selling someday (or in secret today) it is toilet paper, and nobody must ever buy anything he labels TP because they need to save their money for his "gold."

 

The defense of that behavior always seems to be something like "then people buying the stuff he slams should be happy." or, as a former CGC guy said, it makes those books (the ones he never collected) more "affordable."

 

Now, I don't know about you, but if I have something I need to sell or anticipate I might need to sell at some time, I sure as hell don't think I should pat a guy on the back for making disingenuous efforts to make what I am selling "more affordable." Lots of people on this board have restored keys and they have every right to present those books for sale without somebody misrepresenting them as being "worthless" when, in fact, the greatest threat to their value is not the natural response people have to it but the incessant and misleading cries that they are worthless by the people who want to MAKE them worthless.

 

 

 

In fairness, I do think Mitch has backed off from this position somewhat, but I do differ with him strongly about the limited prospects for restored books.

 

Mitch just missed the boat on this one. That ship sailed and he's still standing on the dock checking his watch.

 

In the area of restoration Mitch just doesn't see the market and it's growth potential the way I'm perceiving it. Not everyone will agree with my POV either, but from my perspective the restoration market has the best bargains and loads of potential when full disclosure via 3rd party grading is added into the mix. The key of course, is the quality of restoration and the continued insistence on full disclosure.

 

Judging from what we're seeing at the auction level, especially for rarer GA comics, professional restoration seems to be achieving general acceptance and the respectability that has long been reserved for perishable documents and collectible paper memorabilia in the antiquities trade. No one thinks twice about appraisers estimating equitable values for professionally restored art, maps, posters and rare books as a means of preservation and presentation. Why should comics be different?

 

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if at some point professional restoration is seen to increase the value of rarer mid-grade comics that require modest amounts of work to enhance and preserve appearance.

 

We aren't quite there yet, but we've come a long way since the wild-west days of undisclosed amateur restoration. This is one of the key advantages that CGC grading brings to the table. Full disclosure combined with the skyrocketing values ascribed to rare collectibles in grade makes professional restoration an attractive alternative to unrestored books when the demand for quality outstrips the supply.

 

 

WOW - there is some seriously cool posting going down in this thread. Especially Merryweather (off course), GAtor, Fishbone and others. So Mehdy has done some good though: provoked some great posters to come forward in relation to MMs promised 'wall of GOLD (pooh pooh)'. Nice. (thumbs u

Mehdys posting is clearly agenda driven. Expect to see Mehdy targeting some cool GA plods in the next HA auction (after bashing them here as "preparation").

 

 

[Ze-man]

We aren't quite there yet, but we've come a long way since the wild-west days of undisclosed amateur restoration. This is one of the key advantages that CGC grading brings to the table. Full disclosure combined with the skyrocketing values ascribed to rare collectibles in grade makes professional restoration an attractive alternative to unrestored books when the demand for quality outstrips the supply.

 

fwiw, most all of the key books submitted to Classics for restoration were already restored years ago.

 

Rarely(if ever) are decent condition, un restored keys sent in to be restored(or accepted). Unless they are completely shot structurally.

 

Thankfully the restored market is never going embrace restoring every non restored mid grade key out there just to max it out. But more a case where already restored keys are being sent in to be re-restored, to take advantage of recent advancements in piece fill and CT.

 

If that makes sense.

 

 

While I was not involved in the hobby decades ago, from what I can tell there was a boat load of key comics being worked on, by all kinds of people in an attempt to just make them look prettier.