A Simple Discussion on Walking Dead Original Art Prices 0

[AKA Rick]

WD #19 pages 1 & 3 just sold for $8.4k and $8.1k, respectively, on ebay.

 

I'm I mistaken but did these pages have a "Buy it Now" option for around $5,000 each when the auction began?

[Garf]

I thought that was just the starting price.

[Doc McCoy]

I'd say based on those prices for Michonne's first appearance, this is way overpriced. I don't think Jesus/Paul Monroe have reached her status.

 

On eBay: #92, pg 19

[Solar]

Uh, yeah. It's also small art from a far more recent issue (and this is coming from a guy who has 2 Jesus pages from that issue). It's not worth anywhere near a Michonne page from 19.

[dem1138]

WD #19 pages 1 & 3 just sold for $8.4k and $8.1k, respectively, on ebay.

 

High prices, but also not that surprising. I've mentioned to friends during the week that these #19 pages may be this generation's first appearance of Wolverine. (Making the cover the equivalent of HULK #181...congrats again, Gene!).

 

In the Modern forum, the hope is that these sales indicate an increase in value across the board for WD art. IMO, that's wishful thinking. This was a unique sale involving unique pages. I don't see a carryover to other pages, even other Michonne pages. I say that because I know the buyers; they only wanted these specific pages. If they couldn't get them, they weren't going to go after anything else.

 

That's the market reality as I see it, for what it's worth.

 

First of all, my response to this is not to be confrontative, but rather is intended to spark further debate.

I think you're being contradictory in what your argument is. First you compare Michonne to this generations Wolverine and then you make a statement that you cannot make with any authority, which is that you know the motivations of the buyers and that these are unique sales. First of all, how do you know they were honest in their motivations to you? What if they saw you as competition? Did you bid? And even if they were honest, do you know the motivations of the underbidders? Because the winners were not the only bidders. Maybe the underbidders are interested in other pages. And regardless of their motivations, if Michonne is Wolverine, how can you say that only these pages are special? Sure Hulk #181 pages would be the most valuable if they didn't go up in flames, but aren't his X-Men pages worth more when he's on it?

I just think your post raises more questions than it answers.

However, I think that you and I are in agreement that these sales will not raise the prices of all Michonne pages. However, I do think that it will raise the prices of key Michonne pages because now buyers have an actual price gauge in the marketplace and we both know that that gauge will be used moving forward regardless of the actual motivations of the buyers of these two pages.

Lastly, as a compliment to Gene, I think he's like the canary in the coalmine (in a good way). Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two. So when Gene bought the WD #19 cover and then a few random large early pages at NYCC, I saw that as a good sign for the WD market, if only because he's been so savvy with his buys in the past.

Again, I don't think 90% of the pages are worth much to begin with or will be affected by this sale, but I definitely think that buyers/sellers seeing Adlard pages going for 8K+ will have an affect on key pages.

[CollectingFool]

I've met Gene and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think there's a bit of hero worship here just because he has the ability to spend money.

 

"Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two."

 

I didn't know Gene was the Warren Buffett of illustration and comic art. Time to sell Berkshire-Hathaway and buy WD pages! It baffles me how people insist on treating funny pictures like they're blue chip investments. IMO the market rises and falls on the actions of maybe 15 - 20 people who control a lot of the supply. For the one-off super rare high-end stuff, every sale is unique and can't be predicted with certainty. That was true a few years ago and I think it's still true now.

 

 

 

 

[Nexus]

WD #19 pages 1 & 3 just sold for $8.4k and $8.1k, respectively, on ebay.

 

High prices, but also not that surprising. I've mentioned to friends during the week that these #19 pages may be this generation's first appearance of Wolverine. (Making the cover the equivalent of HULK #181...congrats again, Gene!).

 

In the Modern forum, the hope is that these sales indicate an increase in value across the board for WD art. IMO, that's wishful thinking. This was a unique sale involving unique pages. I don't see a carryover to other pages, even other Michonne pages. I say that because I know the buyers; they only wanted these specific pages. If they couldn't get them, they weren't going to go after anything else.

 

That's the market reality as I see it, for what it's worth.

 

First of all, my response to this is not to be confrontative, but rather is intended to spark further debate.

I think you're being contradictory in what your argument is. First you compare Michonne to this generations Wolverine and then you make a statement that you cannot make with any authority, which is that you know the motivations of the buyers and that these are unique sales. First of all, how do you know they were honest in their motivations to you? What if they saw you as competition? Did you bid? And even if they were honest, do you know the motivations of the underbidders? Because the winners were not the only bidders. Maybe the underbidders are interested in other pages. And regardless of their motivations, if Michonne is Wolverine, how can you say that only these pages are special? Sure Hulk #181 pages would be the most valuable if they didn't go up in flames, but aren't his X-Men pages worth more when he's on it?

I just think your post raises more questions than it answers.

However, I think that you and I are in agreement that these sales will not raise the prices of all Michonne pages. However, I do think that it will raise the prices of key Michonne pages because now buyers have an actual price gauge in the marketplace and we both know that that gauge will be used moving forward regardless of the actual motivations of the buyers of these two pages.

Lastly, as a compliment to Gene, I think he's like the canary in the coalmine (in a good way). Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two. So when Gene bought the WD #19 cover and then a few random large early pages at NYCC, I saw that as a good sign for the WD market, if only because he's been so savvy with his buys in the past.

Again, I don't think 90% of the pages are worth much to begin with or will be affected by this sale, but I definitely think that buyers/sellers seeing Adlard pages going for 8K+ will have an affect on key pages.

 

No worries. I never mind a debate. In case you haven't noticed:P

 

Anyway...you're completely wrong. I know the winners of both auctions.They have little to no interest in any other Michonne pages, especially if sellers attempt to peg their values to these sales. Why? Both were (and are) only interested in those pages because they were from #19. One of them already has other examples. The other has ZERO interest in other examples. That would be me.

 

As well...the main underbidder on both pages (his first snipe didn't take on the first page because he was already outbid...but it was close to that same level) was really only interested in them as value plays because they're from the first appearance. He couldn't care less about the ninth or tenth appearance.

 

Those other two guys are personal friends of mine. I believe them.

 

Also, Michonne pages ALREADY carry a premium over other pages. My point is that they're not going to get more expensive based on the sale of two exemplary pages from #19. Again, imo, the first appearance is unique; the ninth or tenth appearance...not as much. If the ninth or tenth appearance is meaningful, then its value is derived from that. What the first appearance sold for has no bearing. That's true for Wolverine as well.

 

I know you don't like what I say because it hinders your attempt to pump up the market on your own "key" Michonne pages, but that is how I see this market. I'm also not at all surprised that you would call my encouraging the seller to auction the pages, rather than sell them off-eBay to wheeler-dealers, "terrible advice". Even though said wheeler-dealers didn't come close to offering the eventual winning bids. You are free to disagree.

 

 

[dem1138]

I've met Gene and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think there's a bit of hero worship here just because he has the ability to spend money.

 

"Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two."

 

I didn't know Gene was the Warren Buffett of illustration and comic art. Time to sell Berkshire-Hathaway and buy WD pages! It baffles me how people insist on treating funny pictures like they're blue chip investments. IMO the market rises and falls on the actions of maybe 15 - 20 people who control a lot of the supply. For the one-off super rare high-end stuff, every sale is unique and can't be predicted with certainty. That was true a few years ago and I think it's still true now.

 

I think you misunderstood my analogy. Gene making certain buying choices doesn't make the market move just as a canary in a coalmine doesn't make methane or carbon dioxide present in the mine. It simply acts as an indicator of certain forces.

[Bronty]

I think your two viewpoints are easy enough to reconcile. Does it help the profile the profile of certain key art when its known to be owned by a prominent collector with the ability to spend money? I think it does. It certainly doesn't hurt, that's for sure.

 

On the other hand, I think even Gene would tell you that not everything he has bought has been a "savvy" purchase (who among us can say that anyways, and I'm sure "savvy buys" aren't his main goal either).

 

 

[dem1138]

WD #19 pages 1 & 3 just sold for $8.4k and $8.1k, respectively, on ebay.

 

High prices, but also not that surprising. I've mentioned to friends during the week that these #19 pages may be this generation's first appearance of Wolverine. (Making the cover the equivalent of HULK #181...congrats again, Gene!).

 

In the Modern forum, the hope is that these sales indicate an increase in value across the board for WD art. IMO, that's wishful thinking. This was a unique sale involving unique pages. I don't see a carryover to other pages, even other Michonne pages. I say that because I know the buyers; they only wanted these specific pages. If they couldn't get them, they weren't going to go after anything else.

 

That's the market reality as I see it, for what it's worth.

 

First of all, my response to this is not to be confrontative, but rather is intended to spark further debate.

I think you're being contradictory in what your argument is. First you compare Michonne to this generations Wolverine and then you make a statement that you cannot make with any authority, which is that you know the motivations of the buyers and that these are unique sales. First of all, how do you know they were honest in their motivations to you? What if they saw you as competition? Did you bid? And even if they were honest, do you know the motivations of the underbidders? Because the winners were not the only bidders. Maybe the underbidders are interested in other pages. And regardless of their motivations, if Michonne is Wolverine, how can you say that only these pages are special? Sure Hulk #181 pages would be the most valuable if they didn't go up in flames, but aren't his X-Men pages worth more when he's on it?

I just think your post raises more questions than it answers.

However, I think that you and I are in agreement that these sales will not raise the prices of all Michonne pages. However, I do think that it will raise the prices of key Michonne pages because now buyers have an actual price gauge in the marketplace and we both know that that gauge will be used moving forward regardless of the actual motivations of the buyers of these two pages.

Lastly, as a compliment to Gene, I think he's like the canary in the coalmine (in a good way). Gene is definitely a savvy buyer and I have seen the market move forward after he has made purchases - Elvgren and Herriman works to name two. So when Gene bought the WD #19 cover and then a few random large early pages at NYCC, I saw that as a good sign for the WD market, if only because he's been so savvy with his buys in the past.

Again, I don't think 90% of the pages are worth much to begin with or will be affected by this sale, but I definitely think that buyers/sellers seeing Adlard pages going for 8K+ will have an affect on key pages.

 

No worries. I never mind a debate. In case you haven't noticed:P

 

Anyway...you're completely wrong. I know the winners of both auctions.They have little to no interest in any other Michonne pages, especially if sellers attempt to peg their values to these sales. Why? Both were (and are) only interested in those pages because they were from #19. One of them already has other examples. The other has ZERO interest in other examples. That would be me.

 

As well...the main underbidder on both pages (his first snipe didn't take on the first page because he was already outbid...but it was close to that same level) was really only interested in them as value plays because they're from the first appearance. He couldn't care less about the ninth or tenth appearance.

 

Those other two guys are personal friends of mine. I believe them.

 

Also, Michonne pages ALREADY carry a premium over other pages. My point is that they're not going to get more expensive based on the sale of two exemplary pages from #19. Again, imo, the first appearance is unique; the ninth or tenth appearance...not as much. If the ninth or tenth appearance is meaningful, then its value is derived from that. What the first appearance sold for has no bearing. That's true for Wolverine as well.

 

I know you don't like what I say because it hinders your attempt to pump up the market on your own "key" Michonne pages, but that is how I see this market. I'm also not at all surprised that you would call my encouraging the seller to auction the pages, rather than sell them off-eBay to wheeler-dealers, "terrible advice". Even though said wheeler-dealers didn't come close to offering the eventual winning bids. You are free to disagree.

 

 

If you know all of the players that bid and their motivations, then you can make accurate statements as to why they bid, so good for you there.

However, I actually have no issue with what you say and you're wrong. I asked for debate and that's what we're doing. We haven't talked and you don't know my motivations for making my arguments. Again, you're making huge assumptions and presenting them as facts. I'm not trying to pump up the market, I'm trying to debate whether or not it will have an affect on the market. The market will dictate value on its own merit. And I think you gave terrible advice because you can't dictate why people buy and sell because its their right and their business.

I made zero offers outside of eBay on these pages and made zero contact to the seller. I also never advised the seller to sell them off eBay instead of allowing the auction to run its course. I actually had no interest in these pages as anything other than an outside observer who was curious to see what they would sell for since I have pages myself that I would consider key. I actually wanted the market to decide so we all could see if they would actually even sell for the starting bid.

And congrats, you got a great page! You have built an amazing collection and this will fit nicely in it.

[Nexus]

I think your two viewpoints are easy enough to reconcile. Does it help the profile the profile of certain key art when its known to be owned by a prominent collector with the ability to spend money? I think it does. It certainly doesn't hurt, that's for sure.

 

On the other hand, I think even Gene would tell you that not everything he has bought has been a "savvy" purchase (who among us can say that anyways, and I'm sure "savvy buys" aren't his main goal either).

 

 

My thought when Gene got his McSpidey cover was that other McFarlane owners would be very happy he joined the club...

[Doc McCoy]

I think your two viewpoints are easy enough to reconcile. Does it help the profile the profile of certain key art when its known to be owned by a prominent collector with the ability to spend money? I think it does. It certainly doesn't hurt, that's for sure.

 

On the other hand, I think even Gene would tell you that not everything he has bought has been a "savvy" purchase (who among us can say that anyways, and I'm sure "savvy buys" aren't his main goal either).

 

 

He can.

 

[Nexus]

Since you haven't actually responded to the main points of my argument, I'll take it that this debate is over.

 

And I think you gave terrible advice because you can't dictate why people buy and sell because its their right and their business.

 

Except that wasn't my advice. I didn't try to dictate anything.

 

You opined in Modern that key WD pages still have a lot of "upside" and "room to grow".

 

Therefore, my advice is for owners of key WD pages to NOT sell them. Why should they if they'll be leaving money on the table? Better to hold onto to them until the upside is realized.

 

To me, that's "terrible advice" only to those who are still hoping to grab pages on the cheap from naive owners.

 

 

[dem1138]

Since you haven't actually responded to the main points of my argument, I'll take it that this debate is over.

 

Maybe you're main points weren't cogent. Perhaps you could elaborate instead of deciding that the debate had ended.

 

And I think you gave terrible advice because you can't dictate why people buy and sell because its their right and their business.

 

Except that wasn't my advice. I didn't try to dictate anything.

 

You opined in Modern that key WD pages still have a lot of "upside" and "room to grow".

 

Therefore, my advice is for owners of key WD pages to NOT sell them. Why should they if they'll be leaving money on the table? Better to hold onto to them until the upside is realized.

 

To me, that's "terrible advice" only to those who are still hoping to grab pages on the cheap from naive owners.

 

 

I actually tend to agree with you here. Although at the same rate, some sellers may decide to sell now while the gettins good. Who knows if these prices are sustainable. That was my point, everyone has to decide what works best for them and its "terrible advice" to advise otherwise. Should someone not pay their mortgage by selling their pages because they might lose future value?

Your advice is predicated on some sort of market assurances when there are none. There are risks on both sides.

[CollectingFool]

I think you misunderstood my analogy. Gene making certain buying choices doesn't make the market move just as a canary in a coalmine doesn't make methane or carbon dioxide present in the mine. It simply acts as an indicator of certain forces.

 

 

I understood exactly what you meant. There are plenty of investors that follow Buffett's moves for the same reason. Although other than certain buyer's purchases, I'd like to know an example or two of "forces" in this hobby you're referring to.

 

[Nexus]

Since you haven't actually responded to the main points of my argument, I'll take it that this debate is over.

 

Maybe you're main points weren't cogent. Perhaps you could elaborate instead of deciding that the debate had ended.

 

Maybe. I'll let everyone else decide, then.

 

And I think you gave terrible advice because you can't dictate why people buy and sell because its their right and their business.

Except that wasn't my advice. I didn't try to dictate anything.

 

You opined in Modern that key WD pages still have a lot of "upside" and "room to grow".

 

Therefore, my advice is for owners of key WD pages to NOT sell them. Why should they if they'll be leaving money on the table? Better to hold onto to them until the upside is realized.

 

To me, that's "terrible advice" only to those who are still hoping to grab pages on the cheap from naive owners.

 

I actually tend to agree with you here. Although at the same rate, some sellers may decide to sell now while the gettins good. Who knows if these prices are sustainable. That was my point, everyone has to decide what works best for them and its "terrible advice" to advise otherwise. Should someone not pay their mortgage by selling their pages because they might lose future value?

Your advice is predicated on some sort of market assurances when there are none. There are risks on both sides.

 

How about this...my real advice is for owners to know whom they're selling to. You've said yourself in the past that you price your art high to "protect against flipping". Meaning, you don't want to sell to a flipper. Totally understandable. To do so would be to leave money on the table. So if an owner is approached by a flipper to sell, then he needs to realize that he's not getting full market value. Better to do their homework or take their chances at auction.

 

[dem1138]

OK, so how do you define a flipper since its not part of their email or eBay name and there are no t-shirts to wear. Do you consider yourself a flipper? You're eBay handle is Fantasiatoyz and you have 4221 feedback, so there's definitely been some flipping done there.

I certainly have flipped comics and art but I've held on to a lot of pieces too. But in the end, who cares who buys from you. Once you sell it, you should be at piece with what you got and move on (I think your quote from me is about five years old, its not like we've chatted recently).

I'm sure you've sold to people who you thought were not going to flip, and they did. We've all encountered that and, at least for me, after awhile you let that stuff go.

And a lot of time I know that other sellers don't care if they are selling or trading to someone who is going to flip it, they're just glad that they got their price so that they can put the money into something else and move on.

[Nexus]

OK, so how do you define a flipper since its not part of their email or eBay name and there are no t-shirts to wear.

Here's a story:

 

A few years ago, a boardie reached out to me to help him find a WATCHMEN page (since I had placed other collectors with private sellers that I knew). I thought about it. The boardie was nice enough, but I knew that if I did find him a page, this guy would likely flip it. And then the seller would also get ticked at me, because I helped put the two of them together.

 

I explained to the boardie why I wouldn't help him-- because I didn't want that particular stink landing on me.

 

The boardie's reply? "Felix, if you help me get a page, I promise to keep it for one year."

 

That boardie is a flipper. Even if he doesn't know it (he does, he just won't admit it).

 

Do you consider yourself a flipper? You're eBay handle is Fantasiatoyz and you have 4221 feedback, so there's definitely been some flipping done there.

Yes, my former full-time business was being an eBay merchant. To the extent that being a merchant is being a flipper, then I guess I'm a flipper. The difference is I'm not hiding it nor am I a dealer pretending to be a collector.

 

In terms of OA, my collecting record speaks for itself. It's all on CAF.

 

I certainly have flipped comics and art but I've held on to a lot of pieces too. But in the end, who cares who buys from you. Once you sell it, you should be at piece with what you got and move on (I think your quote from me is about five years old, its not like we've chatted recently).

I'm sure you've sold to people who you thought were not going to flip, and they did. We've all encountered that and, at least for me, after awhile you let that stuff go.

And a lot of time I know that other sellers don't care if they are selling or trading to someone who is going to flip it, they're just glad that they got their price so that they can put the money into something else and move on.

 

Sure, once something is sold, it's out of your hands. What I'm saying is that sellers can maximize their return by knowing whom their dealing with. If I get an offer from Gene Park nowadays, I know I'm getting his best offer. And it will likely be, at the very least, close to market value. Because he's not looking to flip it. But if I get an offer from the boardie I described above? I gotta know there's someone else out there willing to pay more. That's primarily why that boardie is buying it...because he's counting on someone else willing to pay more. It's in my interest to find that person, and bypass the boardie. The boardie's offer is also helpful, because I'll know FMV is likely double (or more). So it's not just a matter of selling to the first person who knocks on your door and then moving on. Better to have all information available to make the best decision.

 

More terrible advice!

[dem1138]

Felix I've enjoyed this. You've shared some great thoughts and I appreciate the back and forth. You and I will never agree on how we see things 100% but I respect your perspective.

[Bronty]

So who's the flipper?