9.2 versus 9.6 Ethics versus Reality.

[Aman619]

BUT if I'm selling you a modern book that I'm calling CGC 9.6 equivalent, you'd best believe it is at least that

 

yeah, with a modern book, it probably looked real close to a 9.6, as in "looked nearly perfect" But Im sure we both agree that theres just no guarantee that CGC will give it a 9.6 on any given day. Especially Moderns which are held to higher standards... The kid may nave been pretty experienced, but its hard to imagine that he thought he was "getting over on the dealer" paying that much for a 9.6. If he paid far less one could argue that he thought hed flip it when it came back. But he paid 9.6 price for what he was told/assured/convinced was a real 9.6 and worth every penny.

 

you know what? the more I think about this, who knows??? How much does a 101 in 9.6 sell for anyway?? Was this a fair price or far higher than expected?

[rjpb]

All these hypotheticals got me thinking of the Goofus and Gallant strip from Hi-Lites magazine.

 

 

Gallant worked hard for his $460, doing chores for the elderly couple next door. Goofus took the $460 from his mom's purse. Gallant bought the 9.6 X-men 101 so he could slab it and sell it at the charity auction. Goofus bought a raw 9.6, slabbed it, and when it came back a 9.8, flipped it for a hefty profit, bought a 9.2 on Ebay and took it back to the store complaining that he was ripped off.

 

Gallant was disappointed with his 9.2 grade, but auctioned the book off anyway, and then helped his mom set the table for dinner. Goofus took the $150 he scammed off the comic shop owner, bought some killer bud, smoked it, and ate the whole bundt cake his mom made for dessert.

[FFB]

It'd be one thing if the comic came back with a PLOD from CGC, but it looks like the kid purchased the book and was happy with the deal.

 

Whenever we have one of those grading contest threads, the grades are all over the place, so we know how subjective things like this can be. A 9.2 and 9.6 can be the result of a million variables when it comes to the grader. He could've had a bad day, woke up late, got a ticket or something, who knows? Without looking at a scan of the book, I think it's alittle too premature to make a definitive call one way or the other.

 

Exactly. If we "honest" CGC forumites can't agree on the grade of a book (and I have seen some of the "Guess the Grade" threads where the range of grades given to a CGC 9.4 slabbed book goes anywhere from 7.0 to 9.6), why would we hold the dealer to a higher standard just because he's .4 "off"?

[FFB]

 

now advocate:

 

Let's say the raw price was $180 or so, would the "15 year old" have come back and given the dealer more money if it did come back as a CGC 9.6? Is he obligated to ?

 

It all about who's screwing who; and to some extent, to what degree is dependent on the type of $$$ we are talking about.

 

but in this case, if anyone was doing the "screwing" it was the dealer not kid.

And in that example, the dealer, the wiser of the two, COULD have sold it as a 9.2 for $130 (a fair price for that grade) and agreed with th ekid on a further payment of some kind SHOULD the kid get it graded and SHOULD it come back 9.4 or 9.6. Too much to ask, I know, but IMO it wasnt fair to sticker a raw book at the nosebleed 9.6 price in the first place/

 

The only 9.6s that get to sell for big multiples are officially CGC slabbed 9.6s ,... not Any Scm=hmo Dealer's definition of a 9.6. It just aint a 9.6 until Sarasota says so! Thats the rules of the game.

 

No offense aman, but that second to last sentence is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say.

[greggy]

 

now advocate:

 

Let's say the raw price was $180 or so, would the "15 year old" have come back and given the dealer more money if it did come back as a CGC 9.6? Is he obligated to ?

 

It all about who's screwing who; and to some extent, to what degree is dependent on the type of $$$ we are talking about.

 

but in this case, if anyone was doing the "screwing" it was the dealer not kid.

And in that example, the dealer, the wiser of the two, COULD have sold it as a 9.2 for $130 (a fair price for that grade) and agreed with th ekid on a further payment of some kind SHOULD the kid get it graded and SHOULD it come back 9.4 or 9.6. Too much to ask, I know, but IMO it wasnt fair to sticker a raw book at the nosebleed 9.6 price in the first place/

 

The only 9.6s that get to sell for big multiples are officially CGC slabbed 9.6s ,... not Any Scm=hmo Dealer's definition of a 9.6. It just aint a 9.6 until Sarasota says so! Thats the rules of the game.

 

No offense aman, but that second to last sentence is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard you say.

[sckao]

 

I didn't read the entire thread... but are we sure that a 15 year old can adequately take care of a 9.6 level comic so that it remains a 9.6 comic after it's sent to CGC?

 

What kind of shipping or packing experience did this kid have? I've received too many comics stuffed into a manila envelope from "adults" to not be a little skeptical.

 

A lot of us are probably extraordinarily good packers of comics but that comes from experience. (Along with having the supplies to put the bagged and boarded comic into another bag, taping that to a piece of cardboard that's larger than the comics, surrounding it with bubble wrap and then peanuts and then more tape, etc. etc.) Are we sure that this kid has the same experience?

 

If this has been covered... nevermind.

[dgillock]

I just read through this whole thread and my question is what dealer would be so dumb as to put a "9.6" sticker on a book they were selling? "NM" okay, but "9.6" is just asking for trouble. Even with a CGC resub, you have to assume + or - at least .2 ... As pointed out, it's not like the book came back restored or at 7.5 or something. How many people don't have a story about a book they thought was going to come back 9.4/9.6 getting a 9.2 or vise versa. Seems like I hear these stories all the time.

 

As far as felling bad for the kid- When I was 15 I had just started doing some selling at conventions. I made a bunch of mistakes and a made a bunch of "great deals" (i.e. took advantage of other's mistakes). If this kid is for real and he traded his hard-earned $460 for a book he held in his hands and inspected before purchasing, then I don't think that he was taken advantage of, except maybe by his own over-enthusiasm.

 

All that said, if I was the seller, I would do a full refund on the return of the book just to save myself the hard feelings. I would also learn my leason and decide that putting numerical grade stickers on books I have for sale is only going to lead to problems. Sell the whole comic, not just a grade.

[GOODBYE!-migration]

Should of bought an Avengers 4

 

But seriously when you get to 9.6 and higher buy it already slabbed or you are just asking for trouble.

 

I agree that he sure as heck shouldn't have marked it 9.6 as that was asking for trouble along with the sky high price for an unslabbled book.High grade CGC books get multiples because after making it past the blacklites and microscopes its almost become pedigreed; just like the little puppies with good papers go for multiples of what the poor little puppy with no papers gets, no matter how cute or how friendly.

 

Submit and buy at the big conventions then you have several copies to choose from for what is still a fairly common issue, at least in NM- which this one came back as. Did it at least have white pages? Then even at 9.2 you might be able to get some page quality perfectionists to duel it out with big bucks and recoup. your money before 2014. Don't try to flip if you don't know what you are doing; otherwise plan on holding any collectible for at least 7-10 years if you want to make money on it relatively risk free. Even then some comic books are the same price as they were ten years ago like most vg golden age non superheroes books. Pack the book wrong, and blunt some corners and you can kiss that 9.6 or better goodbye.

 

 

Buy 10 or more of the dealers CGC mistakes and at least cover them for economy service and FMV because its a good thing to do for comicdom getting these mid level books slabbed as these books if well taken care of will last many years with reholdering longer than most any other way of storing your books. Imagine how platinum age books would have been if they had been cgc'd and reholstered back in the day. Call up the friendly folks at CGC and ask them for grading notes; they're always happy to talk to society members but don't keep them on the phone too long as they still have to find those 10.0's for Wizard out of the mountain of books Marvel dumped in the receiving area.

 

Hopes he still likes the book anyways as it will still be a significant book years from now. Even the people that overpaid for silver age in the early 90's didn't do too bad if they bought high grade.

 

[COI]

Life isn't fair and we all learn the hard way. Helping this kid gives him a false sense of security and aide that is never there in reality; also it gives him a warped vantage point of how the business world works. Maybe if he pulled his head out of arse and get off the dope, he'd realize how not to throw away $500 on a comic book without haggling a bit or getting guarantees from the dealer on condition. As described, this is absolutely the stupidest 15 year old I've come across ever and I used to prey on saps like this in my highschool days. Not proud of it, but these guys are perfect targets for everything bad in life...

 

If he was doing dope, he sure as heck wouldn't have spent that $400 on a comic. Heck, he never would have had $400 in his pocket at once in the first place.

 

But seriously, I agree with the above 200%. We all learn hard lessons, and there are kids who have a lot more serious problems, and are much more deserving of help, than this 15 year old sucker who blew his wad on a comic. And the fact that he's playing this 9.6 slabbing game so early tells me that he's someone that's gotten caught up in the CGC hype, and not a poor kid who just wants to enjoy funny books. He could have bought 800 50-cent books, and actually READ, before becoming a slave of the slab(like many of us now are.

 

And I stand by my statement that this kid has his priorities screwed up. You only get your high school years once, but you have your entire adult life to collect, get screwed, and lose money. He might as well have spent that on booze and dope......at least then he could have gotten some free tail and some great memories as a parting gift.

 

Man, I miss high school........

[Foolkiller]

I won't necessarily publicly advocate spending it on booze and dope instead of comics...

 

otherwise, totally on board with Andrew on this one,

 

I totally agree with the sentiment that memories shared with friends are priceless... especially back in high school. but hey, if this kid had money to light on fire, or it wasn't preventing him from doing something else he really wanted to do -- then spend away. For me, I needed money to go out and do things in high school... $400 was a lot of money back then (okay, it still is a lot of money)... i mean how many dates would that have gotten you on? quite a few... and then of course usually leading to extra curricular activities afterwards.

[Red Hook]

Should the kid get a refund on this book?

Think about these points before making a decision...

1) The price was very high for a raw copy anyway.

2) The dealer sold the book raw, and when the kid bought the book he was happy with the price he paid for the *raw* book.

3) The last two sales for a CGC 9.2 were $240 and $310, so did he really lose that much money?

4) If the kid wanted to get a CGC graded copy, he should have bought a CGC graded copy.

5) If the book had graded 9.8, does the kid now owe the dealer money?

6) The kid learned a life lesson for $250. I can guarantee he will learn more lessons in the future that he will *wish* cost only $250.

7) The kid obviously knew how much the CGC 9.6 was worth, so is he's mad for getting screwed while he was trying to screw the dealer?

 

Two sides of the story here.

A scumbag dealer that charges too much for a raw book.

And a kid buying a $460 lottery ticket for the chance at a $750 comic.

Looks to me like greed on both sides.

If the dealer wants future business with the kid, he will probably pony up a little money to keep him coming back.

 

I don't know which one to feel sorry for. My gut says neither.

After the day I had today, I can assure you there could be worse things happen to this kid than lose $250 on a funny book.

 

Basically, what you said Dice. If the kid wants to be a "playa" he's gotta' do his homework. And frankly, a year ago, I would have been no better able to tell the difference between a 9.2 and a 9.6. So it doesn't take a lifetime to learn to grade better.

 

And to repeat bits and pieces of what has been said already.... lesson #1 should be that grading is subjective, even at CGC. It's an inaccurate science. There has been no "automated grading machine" invented yet....('course someone will come up with one eventually...), and I think it's actually a pretty cheap price to pay for a lesson he will never forget. It's not like it came back an 8.0 PLOD. The dealer might honestly have graded it close to what he really thought. Look at the spreads in grades among the cognoscenti here, in Nikos' recent grading contest. Quite a range of grades.

 

If I were the dealer, would I give the kid a partial refund? Personally I would, but just to be a nice guy, and not out of any sense of obligation.

[COI]

won't necessarily publicly advocate spending it on booze and dope instead of comics...

 

I wouldn't either, but I was just making the point that you made about memories with friends, allbeit in a much cruder way. I myself never really touched dope(just booze ), but if you're going to do that stuff(responsibly), high school is the time. I can't tell you how many "adults" I see in our age bracket(mid-20's-early 30's) who are just now acting out, sewing their wild oats, because they didn't do it then. And they're slowly F'in up their lives as a result.

 

For me, I needed money to go out and do things in high school... $400 was a lot of money back then (okay, it still is a lot of money)... i mean how many dates would that have gotten you on? quite a few... and then of course usually leading to extra curricular activities afterwards.

 

At that time, for me, $400(almost $600 Canuck) was an ungodly amount of money. At 15, it was an acomplishment if I could get my hands on a 20 dollar bill.

[hobbes]

 

Questions:

A. Does kid get his money back cause dealer said it was 9.6 and not 9.2?

B. Does kid have to eat the book because after all, the book was raw and not slabbed, so its up to him to decide if its a 9.6 or a 9.2 book? If kid is wrong in his choice of grade, does he eat the book.

C. Is dealer obligated to give refund back to the kid.

D. Would this situation and answer to questions above change in any way if the buyer was a 37 year old purchasing the same book instead of a 15 year old?

 

 

A. No

B. Yes. He eats the book.

C. No. A refund should only be provided if one was offered at the time of purchase.

D. No.

 

The fact that a kid bought it does not matter. I fall into the "buyer beware" camp. The kid learned a harsh lesson: grade the comic by your own eye, not the eye of the seller.

 

I am not trying to be cruel to the kid. I am genuinely sorry he had a negative experience.

[musicmeta]

At 15, it was an acomplishment if I could get my hands on a 20 dollar bill.

 

This was so true for me. Heck, I couldn't even comprehend $460.00 in my pocket when I was a kid.

 

The kid should have acquired more information before making the purchase. The dealer is not at fault here, but should do a nice gesture if he wants to retain a customer.

[GOODBYE!-migration]

won't necessarily publicly advocate spending it on booze and dope instead of comics...

 

I wouldn't either, but I was just making the point that you made about memories with friends, allbeit in a much cruder way. I myself never really touched dope(just booze ), but if you're going to do that stuff(responsibly), high school is the time. I can't tell you how many "adults" I see in our age bracket(mid-20's-early 30's) who are just now acting out, sewing their wild oats, because they didn't do it then. And they're slowly F'in up their lives as a result.

 

For me, I needed money to go out and do things in high school... $400 was a lot of money back then (okay, it still is a lot of money)... i mean how many dates would that have gotten you on? quite a few... and then of course usually leading to extra curricular activities afterwards.

 

At that time, for me, $400(almost $600 Canuck) was an ungodly amount of money. At 15, it was an acomplishment if I could get my hands on a 20 dollar bill.

 

You know its not like he bought a US1 or something that is worthless outside a slab. The book if it has white pages has a good chance of being what he paid for in less than 5 years which is probably better than who ever paid top $$$$ for Amazing Spider-man 129 at the height of the movie hype(like the movie wasn't going to suck)

 

The dealer should have the same disclaimer some coin shops have on their receipts that grading is just an opinion and subjective and is no guarantee of what a certification company will grade it at. Why should he have to shoulder the all burden and risk of CGC grading with no potential upside?

 

If it was worth it eye appeal wise to the hypothetical 15, 37 or 125 year old to put down that much for personal use/enjoyment all is fair; Next Day Air is more expensive than Media mail because people are willing to pay a premium not to have to wait. Wait around for a good convention and you can get much better deals while still seeing the books in person, IF you can wait. Here in Nevada there are legal brothels in rural counties where if you can't wait to have sex in a good healthy relationship you can pay premium prices for much less sex over all, but you can have it NOW if you lay down those Bennies. Me, I can wait for the killer deal.

 

Entangling someone after the fact when you had no pre-existing agreement is patently unfair. If you're buying it to grade at CGC for quick profit you have to understand that not even the people who get 9.6's from CGC know what criteria they use and that it is common knowledge in the slabbing community that it is exceedly hard to get better than 9.4 without prescreening. CGC is not for amateurs and you can burn through alot of money quick if you don't take your time to figure it out. Out of the first three books I sent in I only got One 9.6 with 9.4's for the books I thought were in better condition! If it was as easy as sending pretty books in why would the Dealer not have done it himself? CGC gives no bonus for eye appeal while many discerning collectors who are not out to win the CGC 9.8 lottery will pay over guide just for Really Nice Looking Books. This was a fact before CGC and remains so even in the age of slabbing.

 

 

Be cool

[GOODBYE!-migration]

And then see what the dealer will pay to buy it back after you drove off the lot, around the block, and back to the dealership.

 

What! You said this car was worth 30K when I bought it. Why will you only give me $22K now?

 

Who knows what the heck happened to the book and short of distinguishing characteristics like a an arrival date and noticable defects (in a raw 9.6?) how is the dealer even to know that it is the same book? Unfortunately, even in this day and age, there are 15 year olds that are grifters in training. Not to say this 15 year was but put yourself in the dealer's place, short of being a good friend how does he know this 15 year old from Adam?

[blazingbob]

This is basically a no win situation for a dealer. $400 - High price, Put a grade on it (You better be a ballistic grader to do this), hear the words going to CGC (oh brother) and selling to a minor (How big is daddy?). To me this is exactly what a casino calls a sucker bet. Lots of downside with very little upside. You almost have to get a 9.4 in order to break even. And since moderns are printed on crappy paperstock and all it takes is a ding or dent there is even a bigger risk. Add 8 people handling the book in CGC and the fact that CGC is hard on Bronze and I see even a bigger risk. It's very easy to be critical of the dealer when you are not a dealer yourself or not there during the transaction. I have had books brought to me at shows which puts me in the position of "embarassing" another dealers grading. I might even agree with the grade. And if that person got it graded and we were both wrong then what? This dealer runs the risk of losing 2 customers and also risking have people make him guarantee a CGC Grade on big ticket items. For that I would tell the person - Buy the book already graded!

[GOODBYE!-migration]

In retrospect, the dealer should have been more conservative and called it a 9.4 with killer eye appeal, which is what most raw 9.6's are any ways. Even CGC is a bit inconsistant at the 9.2-9.4 and who knows the book might upgrade to a 9.4 on a reholder on a good day.

 

Hope the 15 year is a good kid and doesn't get too unreasonable with the dealer. All it takes is one really bad experience with a minor to never want to sell directly to them again.

[DiceX]

This is basically a no win situation for a dealer. $400 - High price, Put a grade on it (You better be a ballistic grader to do this), hear the words going to CGC (oh brother) and selling to a minor (How big is daddy?). To me this is exactly what a casino calls a sucker bet. Lots of downside with very little upside. You almost have to get a 9.4 in order to break even. And since moderns are printed on crappy paperstock and all it takes is a ding or dent there is even a bigger risk. Add 8 people handling the book in CGC and the fact that CGC is hard on Bronze and I see even a bigger risk. It's very easy to be critical of the dealer when you are not a dealer yourself or not there during the transaction. I have had books brought to me at shows which puts me in the position of "embarassing" another dealers grading. I might even agree with the grade. And if that person got it graded and we were both wrong then what? This dealer runs the risk of losing 2 customers and also risking have people make him guarantee a CGC Grade on big ticket items. For that I would tell the person - Buy the book already graded!

 

[sfilosa]

How is this situation different than going to a convention and seeing thousands of books that are really VG's priced at VF? If the kid had picked up a book at a convention and paid the sticker price, would we even have this discussion?

 

And why should a dealer NOT put the Highest possible grade on the book that he thinks it is? It's up to the customer to agree or disagree with the grade and therefore the price.

 

Once again, if you want a CGC 9.6 grade, buy it slabbed.