The Collapse of the Original Comic Art Market

[Pete Marino]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

Quoted for truth.

[Garf]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

Yes I get that... not all pages have to be the cream off of the top and it's not all about making other people happy. I still do grab the odd few pages from issues/arcs that I have enjoyed and re-read from time to time just because I personally enjoy the sequence and dialogue even if the mainstream characters are absent.

 

Sadly for me a lot of what I really enjoy character and story wise is still pretty damn mainstream and just harder to get hold of now because of that (irrespective of the quality), and a pretty poor starting point for a newcomer. The more I think about it the more I would be perfectly happy if nobody else liked what I like

 

 

[Garf]

... a sequence of pages that I got just because I enjoy them and they came in at less than fifty bucks for the lot. Haven't got them in hand yet (along with a few others being held for me) so I haven't posted them anywhere yet...

 

 

 

 

 

(edit: spoiler tagged the images, usually do that but was tired)

[Hekla]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

You beat me to one table by just a few minutes and snagged most of the good stuff

 

But at least I got a cool cover from that artist for $100 bc you passed on it

[Hekla]

The one thing I have found after 6 years of collecting OA is that I have a better network of sources and have learned (and am still learning) who to ask for certain types of pieces.

[Hekla]

As per the post in the art forum... a sequence of pages that I got just because I enjoy them and they came in at less than fifty bucks for the lot. Haven't got them in hand yet (along with a few others being held for me) so I haven't posted them anywhere yet...

 

 

 

 

That's a nice sequence of pages! I've come to appreciate owning multiple sequential pages or, better yet, complete stories.

 

General question: Since so many stories are broken up and sold as individual pages, will complete stories or partially complete stories be more desired in the future?

[ThothAmon]

When the market hits zero I'll buy it all. Seriously though buy what you like to look at and the rest is gravy.

[mister_not_so_nice]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

You beat me to one table by just a few minutes and snagged most of the good stuff

 

 

But at least I got a cool cover from that artist for $100 bc you passed on it

 

I can't afford the high dollar, triple digit stuff like you can

[mister_not_so_nice]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

 

Yes I get that... not all pages have to be the cream off of the top and it's not all about making other people happy. I still do grab the odd few pages from issues/arcs that I have enjoyed and re-read from time to time just because I personally enjoy the sequence and dialogue even if the mainstream characters are absent.

 

Sadly for me a lot of what I really enjoy character and story wise is still pretty damn mainstream and just harder to get hold of now because of that (irrespective of the quality), and a pretty poor starting point for a newcomer. The more I think about it the more I would be perfectly happy if nobody else liked what I like

 

 

Then we agree

 

More generally, my point is, a new collector can get a Vertigo page for under $200. They can't get a SANDMAN or PREACHER page, but they can get a page from a Vertigo book.

If they like BATMAN they can get a page from one of the thousands of pages out there. They can't get an Adams' BATMAN page, but they can get a BATMAN page. Same for any other popular character.

 

The question was do new collectors have room to enter/explore the hobby. I still think it is yes. After 20 years on a limited budget I still enjoy the hobby and collect new pages (new to my collection) regularly. Some would argue that my collection is full of drek, and they might be right. I don't subscribe to the "one great piece a year and in 20 years you'll have 20 great pieces" collecting style.

 

Whatever your collecting leanings are, there is a place for a n00b to get started and enjoy the hobby. Unless you're a "Frazetta oil painting or nothing" on a shoestring budget, well, then you get nothing

[Nexus]

This is ridiculously timely, since the unofficial topic of my next podcast is "collecting on a budget". Prelims, sketches, strip art, new art, and generally exploring unbeaten paths...we cover a lot. New episode coming this week!

[delekkerste]

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

I don't think that's it at all. Let's say I'm just starting out collecting OA today and, like many, I want representative pieces that invoke my childhood nostalgia. Where on the list does Freaks Amour or anything costing sub-$200 rank? I mean, for my personal nostalgia, I can get Will Meugniot DNAgents pages for around that much (and I have). But, let's face it - when I think of all my favorite runs, Evanier/Meugniot DNAgents, as cool as it was, would be lucky to make my top 25. How worthwhile is it to pursue a hobby full bore where you have to settle for your 26th favorite example because any example from the top 25 is going to cost you a small fortune?

 

I mean, let's face it, very few peoples' favorite series are DNAgents or Freaks Amour. Yes, of course some people want art by "name" artists from the big titles for bragging rights. But, it's also true that those were often the most widely read and popular titles, so it's only natural that people are going to want examples from them. But, the price of admission for a Bolland KJ page is multiple 5-figures; Byrne X-Men and Miller DKR 5 figures, Miller Daredevil or McSpidey, mid-4 figures at least in most cases. How many people would really be happy with "a Batman page" and not a Batman page that they remember from a storyline they loved? Would "a Vertigo page" really scratch the itch for fans of Preacher, Sandman, etc. specifically? I don't think so.

 

Of course there are options in OA for every budget. You can buy art from niche artists and titles for 3 figures, sometimes even 2 figures. Or even mainstream artists and mainstream titles if you look at less popular vintage runs or many Modern runs - if you're younger and love Modern comics (both mainstream and indie/niche), the world is your oyster. You can also get sketches and commissions for a couple/few hundred bucks in many cases. But, you're almost never going to get what you really love most for that amount if you love vintage OA. Frankly, if my budget was that limited, I might pick up a page or sketch cover here and there, but I'd likely stick to comics for the most part - a Byrne X-Men or Miller DD or McSpidey page might not be accessible to most, but the comics sure are. Unless you only want GA and SA high-grade keys, chances are you won't have to constantly settle for your 26th or 50th choice in comics as you would in OA.

[Unca Ben]

This is ridiculously timely, since the unofficial topic of my next podcast is "collecting on a budget". Prelims, sketches, strip art, new art, and generally exploring unbeaten paths...we cover a lot. New episode coming this week!

 

I just bumped the topic because I ran across it last night while futzing around the boards, and it seemed interesting to re-read.

And wrong. If anything, the market appears stronger than in 2012.

 

For context, the backstory (that no doubt many are aware of) is that a new user, Captain Australia, appeared and started two threads, this one and another one called "The TRUTH about CAF", which made some crazy claims about CAF and its members.

 

This was around the same Richard Rae / Vince Geck (sic?) was caught selling/trading light boxed Kirbys as originals and a CAF gallery was shutdown because of its shenanigans.

 

The "TRUTH" about CAF

 

 

 

[Nexus]

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

I don't think that's it at all. Let's say I'm just starting out collecting OA today and, like many, I want representative pieces that invoke my childhood nostalgia. Where on the list does Freaks Amour or anything costing sub-$200 rank? I mean, for my personal nostalgia, I can get Will Meugniot DNAgents pages for around that much (and I have). But, let's face it - when I think of all my favorite runs, Evanier/Meugniot DNAgents, as cool as it was, would be lucky to make my top 25. How worthwhile is it to pursue a hobby full bore where you have to settle for your 26th favorite example because any example from the top 25 is going to cost you a small fortune?

 

I mean, let's face it, very few peoples' favorite series are DNAgents or Freaks Amour. Yes, of course some people want art by "name" artists from the big titles for bragging rights. But, it's also true that those were often the most widely read and popular titles, so it's only natural that people are going to want examples from them. But, the price of admission for a Bolland KJ page is multiple 5-figures; Byrne X-Men and Miller DKR 5 figures, Miller Daredevil or McSpidey, mid-4 figures at least in most cases. How many people would really be happy with "a Batman page" and not a Batman page that they remember from a storyline they loved? Would "a Vertigo page" really scratch the itch for fans of Preacher, Sandman, etc. specifically? I don't think so.

 

Of course there are options in OA for every budget. You can buy art from niche artists and titles for 3 figures, sometimes even 2 figures. Or even mainstream artists and mainstream titles if you look at less popular vintage runs or many Modern runs - if you're younger and love Modern comics (both mainstream and indie/niche), the world is your oyster. You can also get sketches and commissions for a couple/few hundred bucks in many cases. But, you're almost never going to get what you really love most for that amount if you love vintage OA. Frankly, if my budget was that limited, I might pick up a page or sketch cover here and there, but I'd likely stick to comics for the most part - a Byrne X-Men or Miller DD or McSpidey page might not be accessible to most, but the comics sure are. Unless you only want GA and SA high-grade keys, chances are you won't have to constantly settle for your 26th or 50th choice in comics as you would in OA.

 

Unless you truly have an unlimited budget, you'll have to compromise. As it is, everyone, regardless of budget, compromises to one degree or another. Your favorite single issue is DD #181. Well, you can't have the cover. So pack it up and go home? Or be happy with an excellent panel page, which you CAN have?

 

It's a sliding scale, and we all find a spot on it that will work for us.

 

[Nexus]

This is ridiculously timely, since the unofficial topic of my next podcast is "collecting on a budget". Prelims, sketches, strip art, new art, and generally exploring unbeaten paths...we cover a lot. New episode coming this week!

 

I just bumped the topic because I ran across it last night while futzing around the boards, and it seemed interesting to re-read.

And wrong. If anything, the market appears stronger than in 2012.

 

For context, the backstory (that no doubt many are aware of) is that a new user, Captain Australia, appeared and started two threads, this one and another one called "The TRUTH about CAF", which made some crazy claims about CAF and its members.

 

This was around the same Richard Rae / Vince Geck (sic?) was caught selling/trading light boxed Kirbys as originals and a CAF gallery was shutdown because of its shenanigans.

 

The "TRUTH" about CAF

 

 

 

I meant the conversation between mister not-so-nice and Garf was timely, not whatever that lunatic Rae was going on about four years ago.

 

In terms of a "crash" though...I don't rule it out. I just wouldn't make any predictions as to when.

[Unca Ben]

 

I meant the conversation between mister not-so-nice and Garf was timely, not whatever that lunatic Rae was going on about four years ago.

 

In terms of a "crash" though...I don't rule it out. I just wouldn't make any predictions as to when.

 

Yep, I understood what you meant with your post. (and I'm lookin' forward to your next installment!)

 

I guess I made it unclear by my quoting what you said - I just meant to add to the overall conversation and provide some back story to "Captain Australia" for any newer members who may not be aware the Rae shenanigans.

 

 

 

[mister_not_so_nice]

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

I don't think that's it at all. Let's say I'm just starting out collecting OA today and, like many, I want representative pieces that invoke my childhood nostalgia. Where on the list does Freaks Amour or anything costing sub-$200 rank? I mean, for my personal nostalgia, I can get Will Meugniot DNAgents pages for around that much (and I have). But, let's face it - when I think of all my favorite runs, Evanier/Meugniot DNAgents, as cool as it was, would be lucky to make my top 25. How worthwhile is it to pursue a hobby full bore where you have to settle for your 26th favorite example because any example from the top 25 is going to cost you a small fortune?

 

 

I mean, let's face it, very few peoples' favorite series are DNAgents or Freaks Amour. Yes, of course some people want art by "name" artists from the big titles for bragging rights. But, it's also true that those were often the most widely read and popular titles, so it's only natural that people are going to want examples from them. But, the price of admission for a Bolland KJ page is multiple 5-figures; Byrne X-Men and Miller DKR 5 figures, Miller Daredevil or McSpidey, mid-4 figures at least in most cases. How many people would really be happy with "a Batman page" and not a Batman page that they remember from a storyline they loved? Would "a Vertigo page" really scratch the itch for fans of Preacher, Sandman, etc. specifically? I don't think so.

 

If your idea of "dipping your toes" in the OA hobby is looking for one of those pages then it differs from my idea of "starting out."

 

I just look at the OA hobby as with other things in life. There are things you want and things you can afford. If those two lines bisect, great. If they don't, toof uckingbad. I'd love another KJones BATMAN page, not just any BATMAN page. Haven't found one in my budget. Life and collecting goes on.

 

My point, generally again, is I can't stand someone complaining they are priced out of the hobby. Either make it work for you or don't, but please don't "woe is me"

 

And be thankful for the little things. For instance I'm quite thankful delekkerste moved on from collecting PREACHER pages. Back when user names were visible on eBay I remember seeing that name all too often.

 

 

[Hekla]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

You beat me to one table by just a few minutes and snagged most of the good stuff

 

 

But at least I got a cool cover from that artist for $100 bc you passed on it

 

I can't afford the high dollar, triple digit stuff like you can

 

[delekkerste]

Unless you truly have an unlimited budget, you'll have to compromise. As it is, everyone, regardless of budget, compromises to one degree or another. Your favorite single issue is DD #181. Well, you can't have the cover. So pack it up and go home? Or be happy with an excellent panel page, which you CAN have?

 

It's a sliding scale, and we all find a spot on it that will work for us.

 

Sure, even the billionaires out there can't have the best-of-the-best Van Goghs and Picassos that are in the world's finest museums. That said, they can still buy Van Goghs and Picassos and not settle for Thomas Kinkade paintings. Sure, DD #181 is my single favorite issue. The cover may not be available, but individual pages are. Doesn't mean that I'd be happy with a random Lee Weeks DD page from an issue that I never read if that was all my budget would allow for!

 

There's sliding scale and then there's sliding scale. No need to pack it up and go home just because a handful of my all-time favorite covers are locked away or not affordable. But, if my budget was such that, say, I couldn't afford an A-quality Paul Smith or JRJR X-Men page? Yeah, I'd question whether I really needed to be in the hobby. Not that there isn't a lot of lower priced art in the hobby, but if I couldn't scratch that nostalgic itch in a meaningful way, I don't know that I'd really be happy collecting only DNAgents art, commissions/sketches and a few Modern pieces if that was all my budget allowed. I'm sure there are people who are fine with buying cool, cheap, overlooked art without necessarily having a connection to it, or art from their favorite recent/current titles, or commissions/sketches/sketch covers, etc. But, for those of us who collect vintage art largely out of nostalgia, the price of admission into the OA rodeo ain't cheap these days.

[Meeley Man]

I'm sure there are people who are fine with buying cool, cheap, overlooked art without necessarily having a connection to it, or art from their favorite recent/current titles, or commissions/sketches/sketch covers, etc. But, for those of us who collect vintage art largely out of nostalgia, the price of admission into the OA rodeo ain't cheap these days.

 

I don't think there are many noobs "dripping their toe into this hobby," who are looking for "vintage art out of nostalgia." Seems you are painting all who might enter this hobby as a novice, as if they all think like you do today and are looking for what you want. I don't think that is the case. If anything, wouldn't their nostalgia be aimed at some one that lesser expensive 90's and later works, not the vintage stuff before it? Perhaps it's not the sliding scale that needs adjusting, but your definition of "noobie to the hobby."

[Nexus]

Unless you truly have an unlimited budget, you'll have to compromise. As it is, everyone, regardless of budget, compromises to one degree or another. Your favorite single issue is DD #181. Well, you can't have the cover. So pack it up and go home? Or be happy with an excellent panel page, which you CAN have?

 

It's a sliding scale, and we all find a spot on it that will work for us.

 

Sure, even the billionaires out there can't have the best-of-the-best Van Goghs and Picassos that are in the world's finest museums. That said, they can still buy Van Goghs and Picassos and not settle for Thomas Kinkade paintings. Sure, DD #181 is my single favorite issue. The cover may not be available, but individual pages are. Doesn't mean that I'd be happy with a random Lee Weeks DD page from an issue that I never read if that was all my budget would allow for!

 

There's sliding scale and then there's sliding scale. No need to pack it up and go home just because a handful of my all-time favorite covers are locked away. But, if my budget was such that, say, I couldn't afford an A-quality Paul Smith or JRJR X-Men page? Yeah, I'd question whether I really needed to be in the hobby. Not that there isn't a lot of lower priced art in the hobby, but if I couldn't scratch that nostalgic itch in a meaningful way, I don't know that I'd really be happy collecting only DNAgents art, commissions/sketches and a few Modern pieces if that was all my budget allowed. I'm sure there are people who are fine with buying cool, cheap, overlooked art without necessarily having a connection to it, or art from their favorite recent/current titles, or commissions/sketches/sketch covers, etc. But, for those of us who collect vintage art largely out of nostalgia, the price of admission into the OA rodeo ain't cheap these days.

 

Yes, no doubt. If you're a collector who only likes specific titles from a specific period of comics, or from a specific period of your life (say age 8-12), then you could be out of luck as far as this hobby goes. But if you're a fan of the comics medium? If your fandom isn't isolated to a subset of comics? Then there's plenty out there. Puh-lenty!

 

What a sliding scale means to me, is that I know I'll never be 100% happy. So I gotta find the spot where I'm happy enough. And clearly, "happy enough" may mean something different for everyone.