The Collapse of the Original Comic Art Market

[Bronty]

I'm nearly my 5 year anniversary (from when I decided to collect seriously), and I hear those myriad concerns expressed by others and share some of those concerns myself, both monetary and non-monetary ("anxiety" I think is probably too strong a word for it).

 

And Gene can speak for himself better than I can of course but I don't see the inherent reconciliation difficulty in what he is saying (on behalf of himself and/or other collectors he's talked to) -- one can have short term and long term concerns about the market place (or segment(s) of the market one is in) and still continue to collect pieces (most likely either because they are lower end pieces that won't have a material impact if they were to decline substantially or better/best pieces that in their view will be less likely to lose substantial value should those concerns eventually materialize). Having concerns doesn't mean stopping cold turkey or having the big sell-off, but they may lead to some changing of collecting habits.

 

 

. I should have done what I did earlier and deleted my posts on the topic. The conversation just goes round in circles. Okay, so there are some concerns. There are always concerns. Always. About demographics, about prices, about a fire torching your collection. It goes with the territory and as you said we learn to manage those concerns.

[Ironmandrd]

I'm nearly my 5 year anniversary (from when I decided to collect seriously), and I hear those myriad concerns expressed by others and share some of those concerns myself, both monetary and non-monetary ("anxiety" I think is probably too strong a word for it).

 

And Gene can speak for himself better than I can of course but I don't see the inherent reconciliation difficulty in what he is saying (on behalf of himself and/or other collectors he's talked to) -- one can have short term and long term concerns about the market place (or segment(s) of the market one is in) and still continue to collect pieces (most likely either because they are lower end pieces that won't have a material impact if they were to decline substantially or better/best pieces that in their view will be less likely to lose substantial value should those concerns eventually materialize). Having concerns doesn't mean stopping cold turkey or having the big sell-off, but they may lead to some changing of collecting habits.

 

 

. I should have done what I did earlier and deleted my posts on the topic. The conversation just goes round in circles. Okay, so there are some concerns. There are always concerns. Always. About demographics, about prices, about a fire torching your collection. It goes with the territory and as you said we learn to manage those concerns.

 

You're the one who said you didn't get it. I guess you get it (now). .

[Bronty]

Just surprised at the anxiety Darren. I guess that like Felix I made peace with any angst ages ago

[Ironmandrd]

Just surprised at the anxiety Darren. I guess that like Felix I made peace with any angst ages ago

 

From my post: ""anxiety" I think is probably too strong a word for it."

 

*sigh*

 

I don't see collectors that I know well being "anxious" or having "angst" - no one I know well is wringing their hands or saying "OMG what are we going to do in ___ years" or "the sky is falling." And I certainly don't feel anxious or angst--my spending during the first 6 months of 2016 is at or higher than previous periods.

 

But that doesn't mean you don't factor in some patterns or circumstances that are less than ideal and/or that are not all rosy and optimistic.

 

[delekkerste]

Question: If the vintage market crashes, but there are still people buying and enjoying new art, would you still consider the OA hobby to be over? Similar to if the slab market crashes, but people still buy new books...would this mean that comics are dead?

 

To me, it matters less about what we call it than what is functionally going on in the hobby. I mean, remember back (before both of our times in the hobby) when strip art was king and then it got supplanted by comic book art? If you loved strips first and foremost, I doubt it was much of comfort to see hero art doing so well while strips stagnated for years and years (of course it's been making resurgence of late). Again, this would not just be for monetary reasons - chances are, as a strip collector, you thought this stuff was better than much/most of the nostalgia-based comic book art that went up 100-fold, while the community of collectors you knew shrank and the material you loved languished unappreciated until it had to be rediscovered again.

 

So, whether there is an "OA" hobby that is still going on, if the vintage market falls out of favor, I think that is unequivocally not a good thing.

[JadeGiant]

I think this hobby is ripe for new entrants even with the upward movement of the hobby. Most will dip their toe at first but toe dippers usually end up getting in the pool ankle deep, then waist deep and some dive in. The rate all depends on your disposable income and risk tolerance for large purchases. Personally, I did this and never thought I would spend where I do today. Pages that I considered out of reach are now in my collection (though I am far from playing in the deep end of the pool).

 

As much as nostalgia does drive this market, I think it takes a clear back seat to the appreciation of art. Nostalgia alone does nothing for this hobby. I know a TON of people that are as nostalgic as I am but get the deer-in-the-headlights look when I talk to them about art. They are not huge art fans and it doesn’t connect for them. Appreciation of art allows most people to become overwhelmed and buy whatever catches their eye and there is plenty of that out there. Very few people come into the hobby with very clear and exact targets. This comes with time and with time comes an expanding budget. It’s a gradual thing for most – the realization for what you want, can afford, etc. forms and changes over time. I think the pure nostalgia collector is more rare than many of us would think. Someone who only buys from that sweet spot that is hugely nostalgic for them is a rare bird I think and the exception, rather than the rule. I just don’t see many people that find this hobby, identify quickly exactly what they want, and stick to the plan. At least that has been my experience. Rather, you might find the hobby, dabble a bit and have some “grails” (in parens as everyone uses the term differently) that you would like but don’t think you will get and get overwhelmed with all the good art that is available at your taste and budget. Squirrel!

 

[delekkerste]

Just surprised at the anxiety Daren. I guess that like Felix I made peace with any angst ages ago

 

This may not be speaking directly to the same topic of anxiety, but, I've heard it from many, many, many vintage art collectors, including the biggest BSDs (heck, I think one of them said as much on one of Felix's podcasts, and Doc Dave certainly alluded to it in his post a few days ago as well) that the nosebleed prices in vintage OA have made the hobby a lot less innocent and fun than it used to be. Even if return-on-capital or even return-of-capital is the farthest thing from your mind, and you're just buying for pure enjoyment, you have to weigh that enjoyment against the often incredible sums you have to lay out for the art these days.

 

When you're dealing with smaller sums, there's just inherently less anxiety (and I don't mean anxiety to mean a deep clinical psychosis, just anything that might cause one even slight unease or apprehension) all around. So that's a bonus for Modern art, but, sometimes you can't choose what you love!

[AKA Rick]

I also think another factor, for me at least is, if you bought a certain artist at a certain price years ago, it's hard to cost average upwards in buying new acquisitions at today's higher prices.

 

So, in other words, those who have enough Kirby pages they may have paid $3k for that see similar pages available at $10k, might have a hard time spending that kind of money when they already have positions in Kirby locked in at the lower price. They'd maybe then move towards other artists they don't have represented in their collection.

 

I know there's some art and artists which I feel psychologically and financially locked out of which I grew up on, including Todd McFarlane Spider-Man; John Byrne Uncanny X-Men (as well as pre-mid-80s' Marvel work); Jim Starlin Captain Marvel; Neal Adams 1970's Marvel work (Avengers and X-Men); Barry Windsor Smith Conan; Frank Miller Daredevil; especially knowing what I theoretically (when I was an active OA collector) could have acquired for much less than today's prices.

 

So, that's where I think being at peace with "you can't own everything you see that you like" comes into play and figuring out there's plenty to buy, both new and old art that's affordable and enjoyable.

 

 

[Nexus]

Question: If the vintage market crashes, but there are still people buying and enjoying new art, would you still consider the OA hobby to be over? Similar to if the slab market crashes, but people still buy new books...would this mean that comics are dead?

 

To me, it matters less about what we call it than what is functionally going on in the hobby. I mean, remember back (before both of our times in the hobby) when strip art was king and then it got supplanted by comic book art? If you loved strips first and foremost, I doubt it was much of comfort to see hero art doing so well while strips stagnated for years and years (of course it's been making resurgence of late). Again, this would not just be for monetary reasons - chances are, as a strip collector, you thought this stuff was better than much/most of the nostalgia-based comic book art that went up 100-fold, while the community of collectors you knew shrank and the material you loved languished unappreciated until it had to be rediscovered again.

 

So, whether there is an "OA" hobby that is still going on, if the vintage market falls out of favor, I think that is unequivocally not a good thing.

 

I agree, not a good thing. But not the death of the hobby. Which I'm more concerned with. I'm interested in the art form as a whole, not just a specific segment. We may be going in circles again:P

 

What you describe, though, sounds like the natural order of things for, I don't know, just about everything? Kids aren't necessarily going to love what their parents loved, right? The new art that's in favor today, will fall out of favor tomorrow. We're getting old! Anyway, as I've said before, it would suck, it would be sad...but it wouldn't be a surprise.

[delekkerste]

What you describe, though, sounds like the natural order of things for, I don't know, just about everything? Kids aren't necessarily going to love what their parents loved, right? The new art that's in favor today, will fall out of favor tomorrow. We're getting old! Anyway, as I've said before, it would suck, it would be sad...but it wouldn't be a surprise.

 

:cry:

[rocket1312]

I wanted to take a minute and share some of my thoughts since I am one of these hypothetical "new, nostalgia-based" collectors. I'm 36 and have read comics off and on since 1991. I had never even given original art more than a passing thought. In fact, I don't think I even realized it existed beyond an academic understanding that of course these artists had to be drawing on something. Then one day about a year ago a chance encounter with the commission galleries on John Byrne's website opened my eyes to a whole new world.

 

Without getting into all the specifics, the first thing I did was try and look up art from my 10 or so favorite artist/series/runs. Not all of it was stuff from my childhood. Some were older classics I read as back issues/trades and some of it more contemporary material I enjoyed as an adult .What I found is that some of it is more or less affordable for me (Bagley New Warriors, Kolins Flash) and some of it is so far beyond what I'll ever pay that I have already resigned myself to the fact that I will never own a page (Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil). Then there's the in-between stuff that I could kinda, maybe afford if the price was right, but even then it probably wouldn't be the quality of page I'd ever be 100% satisfied with (Lee X-Men).

 

The one common denominator in all of the above is that it's stuff that I love and to which I have a strong emotional attachment. Given that fact, my collecting goals are incredibly specific, which can in turn be incredibly frustrating. Right now I remain engaged with the hobby because there are enough pieces on my want-list out there that I can afford (I also happen to enjoy following the goings-on of the hobby in general), but what happens when that pool dries up? I'm not sure. I think Gene alluded to this notion already, but I'm willing to compromise to the degree that I will happily acquire a Jim Lee X-Men panel page in place of the cover or splash that I will never be able to afford. What I won't do, however, is trade in my dreams of a Lee piece for a much more affordable X-Men cover by, say, Salvador Larocca (an artist I like by the way). I just don't have any attachment to the material and no matter how pretty it is, it's not going to scratch that same itch. That being the case, it's quite possible that a couple of years from now I will have given up the hobby and moved onto something else. After all, what fun is collecting if I can't collect the things that I want? Am I representative of newer collectors in general and if so is that a bad thing for the hobby? I have no idea. I'll leave that for others to discuss.

 

All that being said, there are a few exceptions to my collecting habits. For example, I love Batman. However, I love Batman in a kind of broad, intellectual property sense. I've never been a consistent reader of Batman comics (although I have read a bunch) and don't have a particular artist or time-period that I gravitate towards. I could probably throw Spider-Man in that same category. I'd love to own a nice example of both characters and because I'm not so attached to a specific artist/issue, I have a strong supply of affordable options. Still, those are definitely the exceptions and not the sort of thing that will keep me going in the hobby long term.

 

p.s. Just as an aside, because someone brought it up, if anyone is planning on using Liefeld Youngblood pages as kindling, I will happily send you a box of actual kindling for some of those pages! What can I say, I was 12 when Youngblood #1 came out.

[Bronty]

Just surprised at the anxiety Darren. I guess that like Felix I made peace with any angst ages ago

 

From my post: ""anxiety" I think is probably too strong a word for it."

 

*sigh*

 

I don't see collectors that I know well being "anxious" or having "angst" - no one I know well is wringing their hands or saying "OMG what are we going to do in ___ years" or "the sky is falling." And I certainly don't feel anxious or angst--my spending during the first 6 months of 2016 is at or higher than previous periods.

 

But that doesn't mean you don't factor in some patterns or circumstances that are less than ideal and/or that are not all rosy and optimistic.

 

Why the ANGST over my word choice Darren?

 

Esp when 'anxiety' was the word Gene chose in the first place?

 

 

 

[Bronty]

Just surprised at the anxiety Daren. I guess that like Felix I made peace with any angst ages ago

 

This may not be speaking directly to the same topic of anxiety, but, I've heard it from many, many, many vintage art collectors, including the biggest BSDs (heck, I think one of them said as much on one of Felix's podcasts, and Doc Dave certainly alluded to it in his post a few days ago as well) that the nosebleed prices in vintage OA have made the hobby a lot less innocent and fun than it used to be.

 

That I fully understand. Totally get it. I've experienced that in more than one hobby. Unfortunately though, there's really no cure for it. The innocent times were great and more 'pure' as you say, but you can't go back home.

[bluechip]

I wanted to take a minute and share some of my thoughts since I am one of these hypothetical "new, nostalgia-based" collectors.

 

Without getting into all the specifics, the first thing I did was try and look up art from my 10 or so favorite artist/series/runs. Not all of it was stuff from my childhood. Some were older classics I read as back issues/trades and some of it more contemporary material

The one common denominator in all of the above is that it's stuff that I love and to which I have a strong emotional attachment.

 

People forget these things when they say that collectors in the future won't have any interest in stuff that was printed before they were buying new comics.

 

Stuff that's reprinted in perpetuity will constantly find people to whom it is "new" (and who will later be nostalgic about it, not for when it was first made, but for when they first saw it)

 

[Garf]

I wanted to take a minute and share some of my thoughts since I am one of these hypothetical "new, nostalgia-based" collectors. I'm 36 and have read comics off and on since 1991. I had never even given original art more than a passing thought. In fact, I don't think I even realized it existed beyond an academic understanding that of course these artists had to be drawing on something. Then one day about a year ago a chance encounter with the commission galleries on John Byrne's website opened my eyes to a whole new world.

 

Without getting into all the specifics, the first thing I did was try and look up art from my 10 or so favorite artist/series/runs. Not all of it was stuff from my childhood. Some were older classics I read as back issues/trades and some of it more contemporary material I enjoyed as an adult .What I found is that some of it is more or less affordable for me (Bagley New Warriors, Kolins Flash) and some of it is so far beyond what I'll ever pay that I have already resigned myself to the fact that I will never own a page (Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil). Then there's the in-between stuff that I could kinda, maybe afford if the price was right, but even then it probably wouldn't be the quality of page I'd ever be 100% satisfied with (Lee X-Men).

 

The one common denominator in all of the above is that it's stuff that I love and to which I have a strong emotional attachment. Given that fact, my collecting goals are incredibly specific, which can in turn be incredibly frustrating. Right now I remain engaged with the hobby because there are enough pieces on my want-list out there that I can afford (I also happen to enjoy following the goings-on of the hobby in general), but what happens when that pool dries up? I'm not sure. I think Gene alluded to this notion already, but I'm willing to compromise to the degree that I will happily acquire a Jim Lee X-Men panel page in place of the cover or splash that I will never be able to afford. What I won't do, however, is trade in my dreams of a Lee piece for a much more affordable X-Men cover by, say, Salvador Larocca (an artist I like by the way). I just don't have any attachment to the material and no matter how pretty it is, it's not going to scratch that same itch. That being the case, it's quite possible that a couple of years from now I will have given up the hobby and moved onto something else. After all, what fun is collecting if I can't collect the things that I want? Am I representative of newer collectors in general and if so is that a bad thing for the hobby? I have no idea. I'll leave that for others to discuss.

 

All that being said, there are a few exceptions to my collecting habits. For example, I love Batman. However, I love Batman in a kind of broad, intellectual property sense. I've never been a consistent reader of Batman comics (although I have read a bunch) and don't have a particular artist or time-period that I gravitate towards. I could probably throw Spider-Man in that same category. I'd love to own a nice example of both characters and because I'm not so attached to a specific artist/issue, I have a strong supply of affordable options. Still, those are definitely the exceptions and not the sort of thing that will keep me going in the hobby long term.

 

p.s. Just as an aside, because someone brought it up, if anyone is planning on using Liefeld Youngblood pages as kindling, I will happily send you a box of actual kindling for some of those pages! What can I say, I was 12 when Youngblood #1 came out.

 

WTTB!

 

(edit: looked at post count first, account age second )

[Bill C]

I wanted to take a minute and share some of my thoughts since I am one of these hypothetical "new, nostalgia-based" collectors.

 

Without getting into all the specifics, the first thing I did was try and look up art from my 10 or so favorite artist/series/runs. Not all of it was stuff from my childhood. Some were older classics I read as back issues/trades and some of it more contemporary material

The one common denominator in all of the above is that it's stuff that I love and to which I have a strong emotional attachment.

 

People forget these things when they say that collectors in the future won't have any interest in stuff that was printed before they were buying new comics.

 

Stuff that's reprinted in perpetuity will constantly find people to whom it is "new" (and who will later be nostalgic about it, not for when it was first made, but for when they first saw it)

 

Oh yeah. My favorite period from comics is the silver age. I wasn't born until after it ended, but I still grew up in a comics store reading all those back issues (along with new books at the time). If $ wasn't such a factor, SA art would be the majority of my collection.

[Nexus]

People forget these things when they say that collectors in the future won't have any interest in stuff that was printed before they were buying new comics.

 

Stuff that's reprinted in perpetuity will constantly find people to whom it is "new" (and who will later be nostalgic about it, not for when it was first made, but for when they first saw it)

 

Indeed, I've made this point many, many times over the years. But it helps to know what's being reprinted and marketed to a new audience. This is where DC/Vertigo has done a great job, whereas Marvel has failed miserably.

 

It's why checking out graphic novel bestseller lists is instructive. KILLING JOKE (the hardcover edition has been at or near the top for years), DKR, WATCHMEN, V FOR VENDETTA, et al, are a consistent presence on those lists. Marvel's back catalog, OTOH, is conspicuously absent. Why didn't they repackage BORN AGAIN, for example, to capitalize on the Netflix show? Not to mention the movies. So that's why I asked Albert if he thought Starlin WARLOCK would still be a thing 20 years from now. I highly doubt there have been any new readers of it since the '80s reprints. That does not bode well for its future.

 

And no, Gene, that does not mean future generations will necessarily care enough to fork out five and six figures for DC/Vertigo art. But while Marvel characters may still be relevant thanks to other media, the next generation won't feel any nostalgia for the comics because they were never given the chance.

 

[Nexus]

Maybe you were thinking of Felix

 

Nope, not me, either! I think I've only bid on a couple of PREACHER pages on eBay over the years. Most were bought privately.

[Nexus]

or another example that just popped into my head would be every YTLM page on offer on Splash Page which were really reasonable getting bought out by one collector (speculator?)...

 

Wasn't aware of this, but I did hear that an individual tried to buy every single 100 BULLETS page that Eduardo Risso still had last year (which had to be several hundred pages, at least...I don't know if the deal went through). So these types of buyers are out there.

[delekkerste]

Without getting into all the specifics, the first thing I did was try and look up art from my 10 or so favorite artist/series/runs. Not all of it was stuff from my childhood. Some were older classics I read as back issues/trades and some of it more contemporary material I enjoyed as an adult .What I found is that some of it is more or less affordable for me (Bagley New Warriors, Kolins Flash) and some of it is so far beyond what I'll ever pay that I have already resigned myself to the fact that I will never own a page (Byrne X-Men, Miller Daredevil). Then there's the in-between stuff that I could kinda, maybe afford if the price was right, but even then it probably wouldn't be the quality of page I'd ever be 100% satisfied with (Lee X-Men).

 

The one common denominator in all of the above is that it's stuff that I love and to which I have a strong emotional attachment. Given that fact, my collecting goals are incredibly specific, which can in turn be incredibly frustrating. Right now I remain engaged with the hobby because there are enough pieces on my want-list out there that I can afford (I also happen to enjoy following the goings-on of the hobby in general), but what happens when that pool dries up? I'm not sure. I think Gene alluded to this notion already, but I'm willing to compromise to the degree that I will happily acquire a Jim Lee X-Men panel page in place of the cover or splash that I will never be able to afford. What I won't do, however, is trade in my dreams of a Lee piece for a much more affordable X-Men cover by, say, Salvador Larocca (an artist I like by the way). I just don't have any attachment to the material and no matter how pretty it is, it's not going to scratch that same itch. That being the case, it's quite possible that a couple of years from now I will have given up the hobby and moved onto something else. After all, what fun is collecting if I can't collect the things that I want? Am I representative of newer collectors in general and if so is that a bad thing for the hobby? I have no idea. I'll leave that for others to discuss.

 

 

Your experience is very typical of those of us who collect vintage comic art, and touches on numerous aspects that I described in earlier posts. It may not be the experience that collectors who gravitate towards Felix's guys have had, but it sounds like a very normal, logical even, progression for most of us on the vintage side. Most of us were reading comics somewhere in the '60s through the mid-'90s period. And, at some point, we discovered OA or otherwise decided to make that transition. And, of course, we gravitated towards what we knew and loved. While people may eventually branch out into new territory, the typical experience is that we start with what we know and love and...covet, like Hannibal Lecter said in "Silence of the Lambs".

 

So, we make up a list like you did. Only nowadays most people end up disappointed to find that much of what they love is either locked away and/or priced out of reach. Once the shock and denial pass, we move on to bargaining - e.g., "what would I be happy with? Jim Lee panel page could work, but Salvador Larocca cover doesn't". And, you make a fabulous point at the end of the quoted section above - given this kind of bargaining and not getting exactly what you want (and paying up for the privilege), will you at some point just move on to greener pastures after a couple of years? Many people have - we've witnessed numerous collectors cross over from comics only to leave disappointed before too long.

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing your experience, thoughts and motivations - I believe that your experience is not atypical at all, and highlights exactly the kind of dynamics at play in the vintage side of the hobby today. It's very facile to look at the record prices and think that things couldn't be better for the hobby; concerns like the ones you have highlight the longer-term challenges in rejuvenating and evolving the collector base, though.