The Collapse of the Original Comic Art Market

[thehumantorch]

Some say the Original Comic Art Market has peeked, and is poised to crash, what will this mean for thousands of original art collectors who have just purchased items for investment only ? and what roll has the site ComicArtFans played in the markets down fall (if any)

-From 9/21/2012

 

Remember this? Quoted for posterity

 

Captain Australia was very wrong. Demoted to second lieutenant Australia

[delekkerste]

And be thankful for the little things. For instance I'm quite thankful delekkerste moved on from collecting PREACHER pages. Back when user names were visible on eBay I remember seeing that name all too often.

 

I don't recall ever bidding on any Preacher pages; I've only ever read the first TPB of the series. Maybe you were thinking of Felix; people in this hobby get me confused with him ALL THE TIME.

[Dick O.]

The OA hobby is definitely still accessible to newbies, whether they be "recent-run" or "nostalgia" collectors. If their nostalgic sweet spot is from the '90s onwards, there's a ton of sub-$300 pages from popular runs available.

 

Top of my head, the only truly pricey superhero runs from the late-'80s on are McSpidey and Lee X-Men/Hush. Pricey indie runs like Sandman and Sin City appealed mainly to older readers, who I assume would have tried entering the OA hobby by now if so inclined.

 

[adamstrange]

Some of us have gotten used to the 25th best vacation spot, the 25th best sports car, the 25th best home to live in, the 25th best way to watch the SuperBowl (hint: it involves a TV in the living room)...

[staffman]

I came into this hobby back in 2011 when I saw all of this great artwork out there featuring some of my favorite artists taking on my favorite characters. My mind was blown and I jumped in feet first. I have since switched over and am in the process of just going after published pieces now, but that was a fun way of getting into the hobby for me. I still see it when I go out and assist in the artist alley at shows, that commissions are a way a lot of fans are still getting pulled into this hobby. Sure it's not from an issue that we had that brings back all of those great feelings of nostalgia, but it is a way for new fans to get into this hobby and can be a bit more affordable than having that 5 figure Batman page.

 

We all have to make compromises in life somewhere. No matter how much money you have, someone out there will inevitably have the bigger wallet when that piece comes up that you so dearly wanted. Or you will have 2 opportunities arrive at your door at the same time, so you will have to choose one and let the other one go. So as Felix and others have said, you don't go for that cover, but go for an interior page instead and it helps feed the need.

 

As far as the art market crumbling, well if it had happened in 2012, I think I would just have more artwork is all. Are we in a bubble? Possibly - Are there speculators out there driving up prices? I think we can say yes to that. How many videos or articles are out there writing about how to invest in comic art now on a monthly basis? Also don't forget the auction shenanigans that we got a peek behind the curtain on that are keeping prices at a certain level. That doesn't mean we will see the bottom drop tomorrow and drop hard if it does drop. Can't say it enough. Collect what you want and at the price you can afford and enjoy the art.

[Garf]

Do you think in 2016 as many people can still start by "dipping their toes" into the hobby? Even if we ignore published art. When con season kicked in this year (especially) I have seen quite a few grumbles about what you would get for your money if you took $500 - $1000 with you.

 

YES !

 

If by "dipping their toes" you mean finding some sub-$200 pages.

 

I went to Phoenix Comic Con this year, 2016, and more than one artist had a 3"+ stack of OA. Any page in the stack was under $30. No, it wasn't Jim Lee, Arthur Adams or Jack Kirby, but they were 10-20+ year published comics pros. If you were familiar with their work/titles you could have picked up a few nice sequential pages for under $200. The recent batch of FREAKS AMOUR pages I put on CAF I got from such a stack. This is a comic I pull out to read every few years and their are 20+ year old pages from it sitting in the "discount stack."

 

Can't make it to a convention? Comb through the dealer websites, CAF, Tumblr, Twitter, DeviantArt . . . The art is out there, it's available, just do some legwork.

 

I think the problem is more that the sub-$200 isn't going to get the collector in the center of the circle-jerk for 15 minutes of back patting and is thus deemed not worth collecting.

 

 

Yes I get that... not all pages have to be the cream off of the top and it's not all about making other people happy. I still do grab the odd few pages from issues/arcs that I have enjoyed and re-read from time to time just because I personally enjoy the sequence and dialogue even if the mainstream characters are absent.

 

Sadly for me a lot of what I really enjoy character and story wise is still pretty damn mainstream and just harder to get hold of now because of that (irrespective of the quality), and a pretty poor starting point for a newcomer. The more I think about it the more I would be perfectly happy if nobody else liked what I like

 

 

Then we agree

 

More generally, my point is, a new collector can get a Vertigo page for under $200. They can't get a SANDMAN or PREACHER page, but they can get a page from a Vertigo book.

If they like BATMAN they can get a page from one of the thousands of pages out there. They can't get an Adams' BATMAN page, but they can get a BATMAN page. Same for any other popular character.

 

The question was do new collectors have room to enter/explore the hobby. I still think it is yes. After 20 years on a limited budget I still enjoy the hobby and collect new pages (new to my collection) regularly. Some would argue that my collection is full of drek, and they might be right. I don't subscribe to the "one great piece a year and in 20 years you'll have 20 great pieces" collecting style.

 

Whatever your collecting leanings are, there is a place for a n00b to get started and enjoy the hobby. Unless you're a "Frazetta oil painting or nothing" on a shoestring budget, well, then you get nothing

 

Kinda... I'm not wanting come off like I am moaning about where I am in this hobby, I am actually happy collecting what is easily affordable and being able to keep hold of it.

 

However, I also think that since this thread was made the landscape has changed a lot. With the upper echelons climbing higher that will have no doubt had a knock on effect on the competition for everything else below. I have never been out to chase "A list" pages or been unrealistic with my collecting but I have say watched the easy alternative "D list" page supply dwindle or even in some cases go up and up from $125-ish to now being offered at $350+ (edit: or another example that just popped into my head would be every YTLM page on offer on Splash Page which were really reasonable getting bought out by one collector (speculator?)... or similar things happening elsewhere like on Spencer Beck's listings... and you might not expect that tens of pages will just vanish if you are a newbie). .

 

As far as stuff like Preacher goes, well I am also happy to seek out other avenues even if it isn't always easy.

 

Maybe it's a bit pessimistic but I do think it has become a little bit harder to dive in if you are starting out, or at least the amount compromise you make elsewhere in your life (be it with time or money) is greater. I am also adding a lot of bias towards the kind of art that I enjoy so take a huge pinch of salt. Regardless it's still enjoyable

[Terry Doyle]

Some say the Original Comic Art Market has peeked, and is poised to crash, what will this mean for thousands of original art collectors who have just purchased items for investment only ? and what roll has the site ComicArtFans played in the markets down fall (if any)

-From 9/21/2012

 

Remember this? Quoted for posterity

 

Captain Australia was very wrong. Demoted to second lieutenant Australia

 

Nah, reduced in the ranks to Private Australia . . . or maybe even dishonourably discharged?

[tth2]

Some say the Original Comic Art Market has peeked, and is poised to crash, what will this mean for thousands of original art collectors who have just purchased items for investment only ? and what roll has the site ComicArtFans played in the markets down fall (if any)

-From 9/21/2012

 

Remember this? Quoted for posterity

 

Wow, this was from nearly four years ago - how time flies!

Isn't it a violation of Board rules for Gene to have 2 Board IDs?

[tth2]

Sure, even the billionaires out there can't have the best-of-the-best Van Goghs and Picassos that are in the world's finest museums.

I've often wondered if there is a number that even museums couldn't turn down. After all, aren't most administered by trustees that have fiduciary responsibilities?

 

Suppose Qatar offered $100 billion for the Mona Lisa? That is serious money and could actually make a material difference to France's finances. Could the French government turn it down?

[Bronty]

Interesting. I have to think the Mona Lisa in particular would be a no-go even at that completely ludicrous price because it would become a divisive political issue - what price is high enough to sell part of your identity? (Even though it's an Italian painting ) .

 

I have to assume France's government would step in and simply not allow it under whatever cultural protection laws I assume they have in place.

 

But, for lesser (still great) pieces? You'd have to think it could be done if you were prepared for a massive overpay

[delekkerste]

Isn't it a violation of Board rules for Gene to have 2 Board IDs?

 

Isn't trolling a violation of Board rules? Don't make me hump the button!

[AKA Rick]

I think what I'm seeing generally is much like what happened with sports cards where, a lot of these "prospects" that collectors get into a frenzy over in speculating on, all while ignoring the tried and true proven players in the game, paying "tomorrow's prices today" (maybe a Coolines unofficial slogan), a lot of artists are charging prices that may be disproportionate to their general popularity, and that's when and where you see a lot of their artwork for sale and still available for purchase (meaning if it's unsold that might be an indicator it's overpriced). Even with commissions, once the sketch cards and sketch cover market emerged, almost anyone with a pencil, ink and pens appearing at conventions were charging a bigger rate.

 

So, what I've found is a lot of aged collectors are ignoring new unproven material (and so much of what is released now, specifically with cover art, are just pin-ups assigned to any issue having nothing to do with the story or content, so the nostalgia diminishes) and allocating their funds and attention towards older material. You can see the auction prices for Silver, Copper and Bronze super-hero artwork continue to surge. Of course today's modern could be tomorrow's vintage, so patience in allowing artwork to age properly as an investment is probably key to being profitable.

 

There's a few modern artists out there who charge a pretty penny who I feel are sustainable as investments with a solid portfolio (body of work), and there's also a good amount of artists out there who price their artwork as true emerging talent with affordable rates. So, it's not all doom and gloom for current pieces, you just have to figure out what you like, and if it's worth the price tag vs what that money can buy elsewise.

 

[AKA Rick]

This is ridiculously timely, since the unofficial topic of my next podcast is "collecting on a budget". Prelims, sketches, strip art, new art, and generally exploring unbeaten paths...we cover a lot. New episode coming this week!

 

Great Topic!

 

For me, beyond what you actually buy, it actually is a strategy of what I don't buy.

 

I try not to go to conventions or surf the internet shopping for artwork and make what I call "boredom" purchases, buying stuff as if money were burning a hole in your pocket, as little as something may be priced and cost, just maybe because you've not made a purchase in a while to add to your collection unnecessarily. Same goes with commissions at show and getting pieces done because your top choice artists lists are closed and moving down the list to others you maybe shouldn't bother with due to lack of personal passion/fandom.

 

I'd love to see a link to the podcast here (or somewhere)

[delekkerste]

I have to assume France's government would step in and simply not allow it under whatever cultural protection laws I assume they have in place.

 

I don't know what the French rules/regs/laws are, but, generally speaking, deaccessioning is only allowed if the proceeds are used to fund other acquisitions and cannot be used to fund operating expenses (let alone fill the state's coffers). I think any major museum that allowed any of its pieces to be sold to an outside entity that made a huge offer (not as part of a planned deaccession) would lose an incredible amount of standing in the art world, no matter the price offered. If this were possible, I would assume that it would have been done by now, and I'm not aware of any instances where this has been done with any museum of standing.

 

Maybe it would be possible with some smaller museums, though. In fact, I know first-hand of a very small museum that was at least willing to entertain offers on its holdings some years ago.*

 

 

 

 

 

* Though, perhaps there was some technical/structural loophole that I'm not aware of that allowed them to do so outside of the usual rules concerning deaccessioning.

[adamstrange]

Sure, even the billionaires out there can't have the best-of-the-best Van Goghs and Picassos that are in the world's finest museums.

I've often wondered if there is a number that even museums couldn't turn down. After all, aren't most administered by trustees that have fiduciary responsibilities?

They are mostly non-profit or quasi-governmental agencies so their fiduciary responsibility doesn't include maximizing profits. Some important works are protected by contracts signed at the time of donation.

[Bronty]

Good insight thx

[Lucky Baru]

Doesn’t it come down to a person’s style of collecting? You could go Gene’s way of building a collection, i.e., specific pages/covers that resonate in your memory.

 

Some other ways to build a collection:

 

1) You can build your collection around a specific artist that you enjoy. You can find page after page that another collector might look down upon using this approach. Some examples, Ron Lim has worked on a lot of books that highlight his drawing style, are at different price points, and can make a person happy and don’t have the Silver Surfer on them. Sparkle City sold pages from Greg Capullo’s work on Angela last week on eBay. They ranged from just under $400.00 to just over $900.00. You can pick up George Perez’s work on books besides the Teen Titan’s for lesser amounts and be just as happy if the artist and/or their style is your approach.

 

2) Collects a certain character no matter who draws the page/splash/cover. How many different artists have worked on the Punisher, Daredevil, Batman or _________? You can find pages that are great at different price-points for those characters.

 

3)Return on Investment could be your approach.

 

4) A combination of all of the above.

 

5) Some other design not pointed out.

 

As with any collection in the art world – the approach is as varied as the persons within the hobby.

 

[John E.]

I entered the OA hobby/market in 2013 which might make me the newest or inexperienced collector here. I started in 2013's Big Wow! in San Jose, with only about $110-$120. My outcome was three published pages and a whole lot of free doodles from the likes of Kevin Nowlan, Ron Lim, Aaron Lopresti. I even got a nice Herb Trimple Wolverine sketch for $10. My point is that even after this the date of this thread, I was still able to dive into the hobby at an affordable rate. I'm probably speaking to a wall here because I doubt someone who has never bought OA but is think of doing so is probably not reading this, but going to cons is the best way to start; you'll find inkers who are selling their C- to B-level stack for about $25 a page.

 

Since that con, my spending per page quickly went up to $100, then $200, then $350, then $1250 for a cover, then it dropped about down to the $100-$300. Sure those aren't Kirby/Sinnott pages we're talking about, but with a few exceptions, they are pieces that make me happy and want me to continue with the hobby. I have also become smarter about what I buy (big credit to these boards). And it all started with getting my feet with sketches and B-level stuff. And this hobby/market needs collectors willing to up their budgets to keep it healthy.

 

But more to the point about a market collapse, I'm starting to believe in more of a "personal" market collapse. And that is the belief that the pages/sketches/commissions I bought were going to double in value when they made it to my hands or when I walked out of the con. Like many of you, I'll have to sell pieces to buy others. The bubble really bursts when I couldn't sell art at the prices I thought they were worth (although there have been some pieces I've made huge gains on). I now have a more realistic perception of what my collection is worth despite what I paid for it. This might have new collectors (or old ones) think there has been a market collapse based on their overvaluation of their collection.

[BCarter27]

Unless you truly have an unlimited budget, you'll have to compromise. As it is, everyone, regardless of budget, compromises to one degree or another. Your favorite single issue is DD #181. Well, you can't have the cover. So pack it up and go home? Or be happy with an excellent panel page, which you CAN have?

 

It's a sliding scale, and we all find a spot on it that will work for us.

 

Sure, even the billionaires out there can't have the best-of-the-best Van Goghs and Picassos that are in the world's finest museums. That said, they can still buy Van Goghs and Picassos and not settle for Thomas Kinkade paintings. Sure, DD #181 is my single favorite issue. The cover may not be available, but individual pages are. Doesn't mean that I'd be happy with a random Lee Weeks DD page from an issue that I never read if that was all my budget would allow for!

 

There's sliding scale and then there's sliding scale. No need to pack it up and go home just because a handful of my all-time favorite covers are locked away or not affordable. But, if my budget was such that, say, I couldn't afford an A-quality Paul Smith or JRJR X-Men page? Yeah, I'd question whether I really needed to be in the hobby. Not that there isn't a lot of lower priced art in the hobby, but if I couldn't scratch that nostalgic itch in a meaningful way, I don't know that I'd really be happy collecting only DNAgents art, commissions/sketches and a few Modern pieces if that was all my budget allowed. I'm sure there are people who are fine with buying cool, cheap, overlooked art without necessarily having a connection to it, or art from their favorite recent/current titles, or commissions/sketches/sketch covers, etc. But, for those of us who collect vintage art largely out of nostalgia, the price of admission into the OA rodeo ain't cheap these days.

 

Hey, money aside, I'd rather have a Kincade than a Picasso, but that's a conversation for another day!

 

It seems like I've heard experienced collectors say over and over to new collectors that they should "start small" and get their sea legs before diving into the deep end of the pool. The above seems to be a counter-thesis to that tried-and-true advice.

 

Your most recent CAF is a Lee Bermejo Daredevil. Yours is terrific in every way, but would you consider it a compromise compared to this piece?

http://www.comicartfans.com/GalleryPiece.asp?Piece=1326068&GSub=173520

(Maybe not if you are more of a Daredevil vs. Batman fan, but I digress.)

 

Now, would a new collector wanting to scratch their Bermejo itch, not be able to start out with this $90 Hellblazer with an iconic close-up of the lead character?

http://www.comicartfans.com/ForSaleDetails.asp?ArtId=398036

 

Taste is a big factor here. On a limited budget (and mine is laughably small,) you have to put more labor into the hunt, more agonizing into the sacrifice sales, and have more of an eye, than if you want to just dive in and buy the "best". What ends up happening is that your definition of the "best" changes along the way. Your taste, out of necessity, becomes more refined, such that, by the time you are playing in the deep end of the pool, you have the experience to make smart choices with those larger sums of money.

 

To support the point, I don't think any Ferrari collector would snub their nose at the new guy who pulls up to the meet in a 400i. They'd think he made a smart choice for his money. Or maybe your point is that stretching that 400i to an Alfa Giulietta Sprint is a bridge too far? It's an Italian sports car, but not the Ferrari F40 you grew up with on your bedroom wall (or, in some cases, in your Dad's garage.)

 

That being said, I have turned to my wife (who collects with me) and said, "We may be getting priced out of my late 80s childhood nostalgia buys." Now, luckily, we have a 2000s period of reading that serves as a cheaper entry point. But we have also started reading recommended current books simply so we can continue to buy entry-level art AND have a personal connection to it. Our solution was to wallow less in nostalgia and stick with the times.

 

So buy the 400i or the Alfa or the slightly-used 360, and keep dreaming about the F40. Wait, what just happened? I'm in the hobby now! How'd that happen?!

[vodou]

This is ridiculously timely, since the unofficial topic of my next podcast is "collecting on a budget". Prelims, sketches, strip art, new art, and generally exploring unbeaten paths...we cover a lot. New episode coming this week!

Benno?