Certified Collectibles Group (CCG) Acquires Classics Incorporated 3 3

[Sqeggs]

Is this a debate about who should be the MVP?

 

It certainly is taking on alot of the characteristics of a "sabermetrics" vs old school baseball stats argument.

 

Personally I vote Trout.

 

Finally a topic i know a little about. Enough of this comic stuff. Dude!! Cabrera won the Triple Crown. THE TRIPLE CROWN!! And he got his team to the World Series.

 

Jeff

 

Cabrera was the best offensive player. Trout was the most valuable player. Value in baseball is about wins. Wins is a factor of runs scored vs runs allowed.

 

There is a high correlation between run differential (or Runs scored vs runs allowed) and wins. As evidence of this, no team with a below .500 record had a positive run differential this year. That is a fancy way of saying they scored less runs than they allowed. Every team with a .500 or better record scored more runs than they allowed. This fact tells me that there are at least 2 components to determining value, that is runs created and runs saved. Defense does make a difference.

 

Offensive value should come from primarily 1 area...runs created. Runs created encompasses so many different factors of offense, from hitting, to effective slugging, to baserunning. It also includes factors which are not included in sabermetric stats, such as the ability to hit a sacrifice fly, or drive in a run from 3rd base on a ground ball to the 2nd baseman. These 2 things have value, even though they are not factored in to the advanced metrics. There are new stats such as extra base taken%, but these are all included in runs scored. An extra base taken or a stolen base which does not score, generally has zero value. In actual value(runs created), the only stats that really have an impact on the club's win total are runs scored and runs driven in.

 

So my formula to determine the most valuable player would be the player who creates the most runs on offense and the player who saves the most runs on defense. Runs created + runs saved = MVP. Runs saved is extremely hard to judge, so going with metrics of plus or minus runs saved above average from Fan Graphs and the Fielding Bible.

 

Cabrera - 139 RBI + 109 runs - 44 HRs +(-8 PMRS) = 196

Trout - 83 RBI + 129 runs - 30 HRs + (21 PMRS) = 203

 

When you include defense, it is clear that Trout is in fact more valuable to his team than Cabrera. I was somewhat surprised by this outcome, but I feel it is a very fair way to evaluate who is the Most Valuable.

 

 

Defense is a big deal, ill agree there. But the Angels finished third this year if im not mistaken. Take Trout out and where do the Angels finish?? Im thinking still third. Take Cabrera away from the Tigers and where do they finish?? Not first and not in the Playoffs.

 

I know Sabermetrics and all this new stuff about analyzing a player is common and has become a big part in valuing a player, sometimes though i think the core of an evauation is right there in front of you and not beyond the numbers. If the Angels go to the playoff this year, then there is a bigger arguement for Trout, but still debatable,

 

Jeff

 

The MVP is misnamed.

The true MVP almost always get the Cy Young award.

While the MVP goes to the best hitter.

 

How can your MVP only play in 20% of your games?

[Prince Namor]

This thread is grim and gritty.

[Transplant]

And that was not a poke at lawyers at all. It just shows that in any business rules are drawn up to take our own humanity into account and we work around those rules.

 

 

Kick save, and a beauty!

totally not a dig at all. There were flowers icons and everything.

[Logan510]

This thread is grim and gritty.

 

 

Slowly becoming glum and gloomy

[nearmint]

I just want turkey yams stuffing pumpkin pie. Damn it.

[Boba]

HERE HERE

[fantastic_four]

It is relevant to the part of the quote I was interested in. I underlined it above. My point is that they don't have to speculate what was done if they can tell what was done since the last time they graded that particular book.

 

The graders' mandate must be to grade the book in front of them, not to draw from any previous knowledge of the book.

 

+2

 

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

[lhcomics]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread to post this in but I have some neat items on ebay right now.

 

Leroy ebay auctions

 

 

Edited November 21, 2012 by lhcomics

[BlowUpTheMoon]

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread to post this in but I have some neat items on ebay right now.

 

Leroy ebay auctions

 

 

Since you've posted in it before, you know where the Comics Market - Sales Advertising - Ebay, Dealers, etc. is.

[namisgr]

Mandate induced amnesia. Brilliant!!!!!

 

There is no way to remove the human aspect of grading. You know it. I know it.

 

Rules are set in place in any place of business to control what can be controlled as much as possible. You can't remove humanity from the equation.

 

 

 

 

Exactly. Embracing reality will allow all apologists, no matter how extreme, to maintain a modicum of logic.

 

Ah, there's the rub.

[fantastic_four]

People seem to be equating restoration removal or pressing as a crime, that forensics should be used to uncover said crime, and that if CGC has evidence of this crime or can interpret the intent of a change to the state of a comic that they should give it some sort of red-flag demarcation. Restoration and manipulation of a comic book is not a crime, so intent is irrelevant. Comic book grading is about evaluating the current state of a comic, not a past state. A comic has restoration, or it doesn't. This in-between "intentionally tampered with!!!" state people want to assign to an unrestored comic is an illusion.

 

It's important to also realize that it's easy to see something like restoration removal as being like trimming. Trimming and restoration removal are similar in that they're both intentional attempts to manipulate a comic that leave no explicit non-original materials like restoration does. However, where they differ is that trimming is detectable in the state of a comic, whereas restoration removal isn't. There is no normal usage of a comic within which a straight-edge and an exacto knife is used along an entire edge of a comic, so if you see the evidence in the paper that could have only come from this trimming, you know it was trimmed. Of course all comics are trimmed at the press, but if the trim pattern is different than production cuts or the color of the trimmed edge differs from the color of the remaining paper, that's the evidence of an intentional trim. If you remove restoration, it's almost the same act that caused the damage the restoration was there to cover up in the first place, albeit more expertly done than the likely-accidental damage that caused the original defect. You can't tell from the state of the comic what caused that damage--could have been removal of resto or not, you just don't know.

[drbanner]

This is about altering and manipulating vintage items in a manner that is really no different than someone tumbling to attain an appearance of aging, or someone chemically altering a coin to attain a rainbow tone.

 

We are simply fooling ourselves into believing it's "acceptable" and that any demonstration of resistance is futile, but in reality, as paper lab methods become more and more advanced, we need to take a few steps back and consider that it is slowly eroding collector confidence and hobby trust.

 

Modernizing a home or object for utilitarian purposes is very different than modernizing a collectible as a commodity in hopes of fooling people into believing it's gracefully aged with time rather than through man-made reconditioning techniques.

 

At the moment, the hobby is making rain, but when a drought occurs, it isn't unfathomable to imagine that it will come from people combing-out the manipulation and reconditioning to the degree that untampered or truly pristine examples will be the only items collectors will pursue.

 

This is really on point Joseph, and teases out what the big picture problem is with this as far as our beloved hobby is concerned.

 

Sure, turn-times suck, CGC is squeezing every $ they can out of us while the quality of their service decreases, and I find it particularily laughable that people don't see CGC buying CI as a direct conflict of interest, but fundamentally, this changes the hobby by systematically integrating the manipulation of books (pressing, dry cleaning, resto removal, god only knows what else) into the grading process all under the veil of the blue label.

 

A 9.4 ain't gonna be what it used to be, but at the same time, it ain't gonna cost what it used to cost either as more and more are manufactured...so there's a talking point for the glass half-full crowd I suppose.

[batman_fan]

This is about altering and manipulating vintage items in a manner that is really no different than someone tumbling to attain an appearance of aging, or someone chemically altering a coin to attain a rainbow tone.

 

We are simply fooling ourselves into believing it's "acceptable" and that any demonstration of resistance is futile, but in reality, as paper lab methods become more and more advanced, we need to take a few steps back and consider that it is slowly eroding collector confidence and hobby trust.

 

Modernizing a home or object for utilitarian purposes is very different than modernizing a collectible as a commodity in hopes of fooling people into believing it's gracefully aged with time rather than through man-made reconditioning techniques.

 

At the moment, the hobby is making rain, but when a drought occurs, it isn't unfathomable to imagine that it will come from people combing-out the manipulation and reconditioning to the degree that untampered or truly pristine examples will be the only items collectors will pursue.

 

This is really on point Joseph, and teases out what the big picture problem is with this as far as our beloved hobby is concerned.

 

Sure, turn-times suck, CGC is squeezing every $ they can out of us while the quality of their service decreases, and I find it particularily laughable that people don't see CGC buying CI as a direct conflict of interest, but fundamentally, this changes the hobby by systematically integrating the manipulation of books (pressing, dry cleaning, resto removal, god only knows what else) into the grading process all under the veil of the blue label.

 

A 9.4 ain't gonna be what it used to be, but at the same time, it ain't gonna cost what it used to cost either as more and more are manufactured...so there's a talking point for the glass half-full crowd I suppose.

 

Personally I think what a lot of people are doing based on this announcement is saying to themselves "how can I personally make more money off selling comics based on this change at CGC". I suspect Matt will have to change his phone number because of all the calls he is getting from people calling to ask about the changes and how things will work so they can figure out how to work with it to make money for themselves.

[comicwiz]

This is about altering and manipulating vintage items in a manner that is really no different than someone tumbling to attain an appearance of aging, or someone chemically altering a coin to attain a rainbow tone.

 

We are simply fooling ourselves into believing it's "acceptable" and that any demonstration of resistance is futile, but in reality, as paper lab methods become more and more advanced, we need to take a few steps back and consider that it is slowly eroding collector confidence and hobby trust.

 

Modernizing a home or object for utilitarian purposes is very different than modernizing a collectible as a commodity in hopes of fooling people into believing it's gracefully aged with time rather than through man-made reconditioning techniques.

 

At the moment, the hobby is making rain, but when a drought occurs, it isn't unfathomable to imagine that it will come from people combing-out the manipulation and reconditioning to the degree that untampered or truly pristine examples will be the only items collectors will pursue.

 

This is really on point Joseph, and teases out what the big picture problem is with this as far as our beloved hobby is concerned.

 

Sure, turn-times suck, CGC is squeezing every $ they can out of us while the quality of their service decreases, and I find it particularily laughable that people don't see CGC buying CI as a direct conflict of interest, but fundamentally, this changes the hobby by systematically integrating the manipulation of books (pressing, dry cleaning, resto removal, god only knows what else) into the grading process all under the veil of the blue label.

 

A 9.4 ain't gonna be what it used to be, but at the same time, it ain't gonna cost what it used to cost either as more and more are manufactured...so there's a talking point for the glass half-full crowd I suppose.

 

Personally I think what a lot of people are doing based on this announcement is saying to themselves "how can I personally make more money off selling comics based on this change at CGC". I suspect Matt will have to change his phone number because of all the calls he is getting from people calling to ask about the changes and how things will work so they can figure out how to work with it to make money for themselves.

 

Maybe. And it may take some time, but following Mike's point, I see it as an operators standing-by situation but when the stigma associated to paper lab methods, census padding, or a combination of both sees an across-board softening of values and a shrinking financial incentive similar to someone restoring a comic to get a purple label.

[Silver Surfer]

 

Sound bite.

 

Fact.

 

It might be a fact as an abstract model but Borock already came on here and admitted that pressing and resubmission was

 

a) not built into the original CGC model - Initially no but did you forget PCS? Just because it wasn't initially part of the plan doesn't mean it can't be a few years later. How can resubmission not be part of the initial model, that's just mind boggling.

b) was not shared with only a select group of people. [i]Sorry I don't understand. Did you mean to say it wasn't shared with the masses only a select group of clientele because that was the impression I got back then? [/i]

 

So your model doesn't really apply.

 

So it is therefore just sensationalism and sound bite.

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2012 by Silver Surfer

[drbanner]

Personally I think what a lot of people are doing based on this announcement is saying to themselves "how can I personally make more money off selling comics based on this change at CGC". I suspect Matt will have to change his phone number because of all the calls he is getting from people calling to ask about the changes and how things will work so they can figure out how to work with it to make money for themselves.

 

No doubt, his existing clients also have to be wondering "Is this now going to cost me more, or less, than when Matt was independent!?!?"

 

But there are also going to be plenty of new customers that see something like "Conservation and Presservation Service" checkboxes on the CGC submittal forms asking themselves "I wonder what this is?". Open the floodgates gentleman, a hard rain is 'bout to fall down upon us!

[Logan510]

Personally I think what a lot of people are doing based on this announcement is saying to themselves "how can I personally make more money off selling comics based on this change at CGC". I suspect Matt will have to change his phone number because of all the calls he is getting from people calling to ask about the changes and how things will work so they can figure out how to work with it to make money for themselves.

 

No doubt, his existing clients also have to be wondering "Is this now going to cost me more, or less, than when Matt was independent!?!?"

 

But there are also going to be plenty of new customers that see something like "Conservation and Presservation Service" checkboxes on the CGC submittal forms asking themselves "I wonder what this is?". Open the floodgates gentleman, a hard rain is 'bout to fall down upon us!

 

 

What percentage of people would you guess who submit a lot of books and don't know about pressing?

[VintageComics]

And that was not a poke at lawyers at all. It just shows that in any business rules are drawn up to take our own humanity into account and we work around those rules.

 

 

Kick save, and a beauty!

totally not a dig at all. There were flowers icons and everything.

 

It was not a dig. It was a poke back at Seanfingh personally since he cracked the Zatannah mind-wipe joke.

 

All I was showing was that all levels of service, whether it's a Lawyer or Comic Grader we have our human limitations and for that reason rules are put into place to best allow each to do their job fairly.

 

Asking a grader to wipe their minds is akin to asking a lawyer to read minds. Both are impossible. In that case we work with that as best we can.

 

Why do you continue to poke at me personally and not even answer a direct question when it's related to this thread?

 

[VintageComics]

 

Sound bite.

 

Fact.

 

It might be a fact as an abstract model but Borock already came on here and admitted that pressing and resubmission was

 

a) not built into the original CGC model - Initially no but did you forget PCS? Just because it wasn't initially part of the plan doesn't mean it can't be a few years later. How can resubmission not be part of the initial model, that's just mind boggling.

b) was not shared with only a select group of people. [i]Sorry I don't understand. Did you mean to say it wasn't shared with the masses only a select group of clientele because that was the impression I got back then? [/i]

 

So your model doesn't really apply.

 

So it is therefore just sensationalism and sound bite.

 

Davenport is trying to uncover a hidden conspiracy. I'm trying to show there wasn't one.

 

a) I did not forget about PCS. We are talking about initially, not what can happen after.

 

b) I mean pressing wasn't hidden. There was no hidden agenda by CGC to hide pressing from the general public and anybody that asked got a straight answer.

[Foolkiller]

Personally I think what a lot of people are doing based on this announcement is saying to themselves "how can I personally make more money off selling comics based on this change at CGC". I suspect Matt will have to change his phone number because of all the calls he is getting from people calling to ask about the changes and how things will work so they can figure out how to work with it to make money for themselves.

 

No doubt, his existing clients also have to be wondering "Is this now going to cost me more, or less, than when Matt was independent!?!?"

 

But there are also going to be plenty of new customers that see something like "Conservation and Presservation Service" checkboxes on the CGC submittal forms asking themselves "I wonder what this is?". Open the floodgates gentleman, a hard rain is 'bout to fall down upon us!

 

While I will still get some subset of books pressed and graded, I think it will be smaller, mostly as a business move.

 

I intend to shift to focus on customers -- and dealers -- who are willing to take the risks for pressing and upgrading. This will also give the opportunity to customers who wish to buy raw high and ultra high grade unpressed books.

 

I've turned up an awful amount of material at reasonable prices in the last few months so there's a whole other customer base to appeal to.

 

I will still press/grade stuff, especially huge ticket items, I'm not sure that can really be avoided in today's marketplace.