Fantastic Four reboot is already screwed up...

[lb jefferies]

Johnny Storm in the comics: blonde hair.

Johnny Storm in the first movie: brown hair.

 

It's an outrage! An outrage, I say! For pete's sake can't they be faithful to the creator's vision!!??

 

 

 

 

 

[THB]

He could be an adopted brother of Sue Storm.

 

That isn't really the Fantastic Four then is it?

 

As long as Sue Storm is the right height this movie will rock.

 

...by casting a black Human Torch.

 

Honestly, just let the rights go back to Marvel...PLEASE.

 

The day after they announce Mark Millar being hired to oversee the Marvel properties at Fox they announce this mess. Ridiculous. He's doing a bang-up job right outta the gate!

 

The FF is my favorite comic of all time, and they keep screwing it up film-wise.

 

Mo-rons.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

 

[/url]

 

Why does it have to be either / or? I was against MCD playing the Kingpin and I'm againt Jamie Foxx playing Electro...just like I would be against it if Bruce Willis had been cast as Shaft.

 

Because skin color is such a trivial difference. If you insist on skin color matching then you should insist on hair, eye color, height, width and shoe size. What really matters is acting ability, plot and the ability for those two things to come together.

 

But if the human torch being black ruins it for you, that is fine. But it is still a negative distinction based on race. And hence racist.

 

So I'm a racist because I prefer fidelity to the characters that have existed for 50 years?

 

Wow

 

But your Fedelity is selective. Do you insist on other trivial attributes like height being adhered to?

 

If skin color and race was trivial we would not have these debates. Why must we be apologists and then be called racist for wanting to see the character we have read about for 40+ years?

 

[Bosco685]

Also, "Johnny" in my mind is a white person's name...

 

The thread is getting bizarrely racist...PLENTY of African-Americans are named Johnny.

 

Marvel changes characters when they're represented in new media constantly. It's not the huge deal some of you think it is aside from in your own minds. Nothing about Wolverine really requires him to be 5' 3", and nothing about Johnny and Sue require them to be white. Stan Lee would agree--he certainly never had the rigid requirements for creative works that most of the fans do. It's counterproductive to the infinite possibility inherent in the creative process.

 

Like Gene Roddenberry did with Star Trek, I'm sure Stan Lee would have liked to have done more of with comics in challenging cultural norms.

 

I still remember the "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield" episode of Star Trek that Roddenberry wrote under his pen name, Lee Cronin. Depending on what side your color was on, this made you a more qualified living being, and the other a slave.

 

[Comicopolis]

Also, "Johnny" in my mind is a white person's name...

 

His mind is an unusual place to live.

[vaillant]

Johnny Storm in the comics: blonde hair.

Johnny Storm in the first movie: brown hair.

 

It's an outrage! An outrage, I say! For pete's sake can't they be faithful to the creator's vision!!??

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to joke, joke.

I was talking seriously. And this is a cultural problem, more than anything. A problem of dedication, of study, of education, of learning.

 

Posts like this have the potential to sink any possible serious discourse.

[Comicopolis]

People should just read the current FF book and stop worrying about silly movies.

[zuckuss2003]

I think the point some here are making is that the character is not being changed arbitrarily (your word), but to try and put the best actor in the role. Also if Michael B Jordan (or Donald Faison as Spiderman, or whom ever) captures the spirit of the character better than anyone else in the room, I say go for it. Its not a matter of equity/equality, just putting out the best product possible. If MBJ captures Johnny's spirit, and fire (hah!), and has great rapport with the actress playing Sue, then go for it.

 

 

Again, what is "the best product possible"? A product that tries to remain faithful to Stan Lee’s vision or a product that arbitrarily alters it in favor of an "accomplished" movie "version"? Again, we are not talking of acting, we are not talking of race, we are talking of movies that are either inspired, based or vaguely look to Marvel comics?

 

Honestly, "the best product possible" is the one that makes money, brings new readers into our fold, and allows our heroes to continue on for more generations to come.

[miraclemet]

 

If skin color and race was trivial we would not have these debates. Why must we be apologists and then be called racist for wanting to see the character we have read about for 40+ years?

 

someone making the argument that in a role where race is not a key factor of plot that the race of an actor is important and therefore thinks actors of one race are better suited for the role over actors of another race is playing in the grey area of rascism.

 

Now if you argued that only an African american (or African, or other African descent) actor could play Jackie Robinson, no one would call you racist, because the characters race is core to the point and plot of the story. If you change his race, you change THE story.

 

Johnny Storms ethnicity/race is not germane to THE story. Especially a more modern version of the story. Blended families are far more common than 50 years ago, so the presence of blended families on screen, even those that dont stay true to the source material, arent much cause for uproar.

 

 

 

[Transplant]

Johnny Storm in the comics: blonde hair.

Johnny Storm in the first movie: brown hair.

 

It's an outrage! An outrage, I say! For pete's sake can't they be faithful to the creator's vision!!??

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to joke, joke.

I was talking seriously. And this is a cultural problem, more than anything. A problem of dedication, of study, of education, of learning.

 

Posts like this have the potential to sink any possible serious discourse.

So Shakespeare's play cast men as women in them, despite the fact that the characters were women. Should we remain "true" to that?

 

This MIGHT be a valid idea if they wanted to recast Thing as a blob of purple goo. But they don't. Since this is Human Torch we're talking about, if he never goes "flame off" in the movie, how would you even know he's black? More importantly, why would you care?

[miraclemet]

 

Honestly, "the best product possible" is the one that makes money, brings new readers into our fold, and allows our heroes to continue on for more generations to come.

 

And in reality that priority in Marvel Studio's eyes is

 

1. Makes Money

2. Allows heroes to contine for more generations (of billion dollar movie sequels)

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

.

.

.

.

.

? Bring new readers to the comic books.

 

(somewhat in jest, but I dont think the Studio divisions care about the comic books, just the IP, the branding, and the market saturation)

[Comicopolis]

[zuckuss2003]

 

Honestly, "the best product possible" is the one that makes money, brings new readers into our fold, and allows our heroes to continue on for more generations to come.

 

And in reality that priority in Marvel Studio's eyes is

 

1. Makes Money

2. Allows heroes to contine for more generations (of billion dollar movie sequels)

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

.

.

.

.

.

? Bring new readers to the comic books.

 

(somewhat in jest, but I dont think the Studio divisions care about the comic books, just the IP, the branding, and the market saturation)

I agree, I added that one in there for my personal benefit

[Artboy99]

all this discussion about color they had better make the thing blue! He has been orange for just way to long.

 

[miraclemet]

 

wrong Johnny

[Logan510]

I feel like we have had this discussion before. These heroes are fictional characters. As someone just mentioned if a good actor, regardless of color, can bring our heroes to life in a way that works why wouldn't we be happy?

 

Because it doesn’t make sense to arbitrarily alter a character, even a fictional character just for the sake of it? Or for some misunderstood sense of "equity", which in fact suppresses true personality.

And because they are "fictional" one should feel free to suppress complexity, and ultimately, sense?

 

For the record, these ugly movies have not "brought my heroes to life" in any way, they are just contributing to mystify what they truly represented, and represent, by superimposing a raw, simplified frame of thinking on those of other historical moments, making an operation which is both dangerous and misleading.

 

It's gone from changes being "acceptable" to veering towards "necessary". I don't understand either of those, especially coming from so-called fans of the chraracters.

 

You make some very sailent points.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

I had hoped that the FF reboot would've been a period piece, much like the majority of the Cap movie. I think there was a lot of fertile ground there in the context of the times these characters were first conceived:

 

- The brother-like relationship of Ben Grimm and Reed Richards when they were fighting side by side in WW2.

 

- Victor Von Doom's contentious and competitive relationship with Richards at University (before Doom's flawed calculations led to the explosion that caused his disfigurement and subsequent expulsion).

 

- Doom's family background as an Eastern european gypsy during WW2. Just think what the first scene to the original X-Men movie did for the character of Magneto...it made the movie's main villain immediately sympathetic to the audience. This was something they expanded on in First Class because it worked so well to establish the fine line the character walks between Hero and Villain. Change some of the particulars around, and you could have an equally compelling back story for Doom that doesn't deter much from the "accepted history."

 

- Johnny's relationship to the rest of the group as an impulsive teenager in the company of adults.

 

- Sue's transformation from meek, suburban, bee-hive wearing domestic to strong liberated woman set against the back drop of the late 60s counter culture movement.

 

- And as far as a villain is concerned, it wouldn't be Doom for the first movie....his appearance as the good doctor wouldn't even have to take place until the second one. I'd prefer to see the Skrulls, ala FF # 2, except their infiltration of the US and Russian space agencies was the impetus for the FF to go into space and obtain their powers via cosmic rays.

 

I think more then any of the main Marvel superheroes, the FF were a product of their era and time. The Space Race. Threats of Alien invaders. The Cold War. The Counter Culture revolution. Taking them out of that context and putting them into the modern world is an endeavor doomed to failure I believe.

 

But I'll keep my fingers crossed that they get it right eventually....

 

 

[Comicopolis]

 

wrong Johnny

 

That's what she said.

[lb jefferies]

Johnny Storm in the comics: blonde hair.

Johnny Storm in the first movie: brown hair.

 

It's an outrage! An outrage, I say! For pete's sake can't they be faithful to the creator's vision!!??

 

 

If you want to joke, joke.

I was talking seriously. And this is a cultural problem, more than anything. A problem of dedication, of study, of education, of learning.

 

Posts like this have the potential to sink any possible serious discourse.

 

I was actually trying to point out that the color of someone's hair and the color of their skin should be given the exact same consideration as far as selecting an actor for a movie role. (i.e. no consideration at all). Pick the best actor for the job. If one can get over the fact the actor playing Johnny doesn't have blonde hair then one can therefore get over the fact he doesn't have white skin.

 

Maybe it's an extreme example to use (just be thankful I didn't use brown eyes/blue eyes) but really, if you have a major problem with a black Johnny Storm then perhaps it's time to stop and reevaluate a few things.

 

 

[Logan510]

Johnny Storm in the comics: blonde hair.

Johnny Storm in the first movie: brown hair.

 

It's an outrage! An outrage, I say! For pete's sake can't they be faithful to the creator's vision!!??

 

 

If you want to joke, joke.

I was talking seriously. And this is a cultural problem, more than anything. A problem of dedication, of study, of education, of learning.

 

Posts like this have the potential to sink any possible serious discourse.

 

I was actually trying to point out that the color of someone's hair and the color of their skin should be given the exact same consideration as far as selecting an actor for a movie role. (i.e. no consideration at all). Pick the best actor for the job. If one can get over the fact the actor playing Johnny doesn't have blonde hair then one can therefore get over the fact he doesn't have white skin.

 

Maybe it's an extreme example to use (just be thankful I didn't use brown eyes/blue eyes) but really, if you have a major problem with a black Johnny Storm then perhaps it's time to stop and reevaluate a few things.

 

 

I know you're not joking, but I wish you were.

[Logan510]

 

If skin color and race was trivial we would not have these debates. Why must we be apologists and then be called racist for wanting to see the character we have read about for 40+ years?

 

someone making the argument that in a role where race is not a key factor of plot that the race of an actor is important and therefore thinks actors of one race are better suited for the role over actors of another race is playing in the grey area of rascism.

 

Now if you argued that only an African american (or African, or other African descent) actor could play Jackie Robinson, no one would call you racist, because the characters race is core to the point and plot of the story. If you change his race, you change THE story.

 

Johnny Storms ethnicity/race is not germane to THE story. Especially a more modern version of the story. Blended families are far more common than 50 years ago, so the presence of blended families on screen, even those that dont stay true to the source material, arent much cause for uproar.

 

 

 

But if it's a great actor who's perfect for the role, why should it matter as long as he or she does a good job and the movie turns out great?

 

( see how silly this is?)