1st Wolverine art @ $140K with 22 days to go!! 0

[bronze_rules]

me too

 

btw. Regarding the value of 180 vs. 181. I think part of the reason there is additional value placed on the 180 is because the 181 is believed lost in the fire (not sure if someone refuted that yet), which pretty much makes it much more valuable by virtue of being the last known existing art that shows the first appearance of arguably one of the most popular pop culture characters in today's existence. Everyone seems to be overlooking that point.

 

If the 181 where to somehow show up, I would imagine the perceived value of that 180 page would drop instantly.

 

A Boardie confirmed with Len Wein that the #181 pages were not lost in the fire and are in the process of being restored from unspecified damage.

 

X-Men #101 is the more valuable comic book than X-Men #137, but, in the OA world, we don't play by those rules - for example, McSpidey #1 is an almost worthless comic book, but the art is one of the most iconic and memorable images from the '90s, so, hence, its $358.5K auction price). Zero question that a top Byrne/Austin cover to one of the most memorable books from the '80s is going to absolutely trounce the valuation of any of the X-Men Cockrum covers except for the key books that were pencilled by Kane and inked by Cockrum (GSXM 1, UXM 94).

 

Didn't know about the 181. I would think that the buyer's would be all over trying to gather more information on that before taking the plunge...

 

Interesting about the perception on 101/137. I'm attributing more to my personal perceived worth ... but the argument makes sense. The fact that so much was paid for DKR page and McSpidey/Hulk cover corroborates your explanation as well.

In fact, it really helps me see your argument on Hulk 180 better now. Thanks.

[techtre2003]

me too

 

btw. Regarding the value of 180 vs. 181. I think part of the reason there is additional value placed on the 180 is because the 181 is believed lost in the fire (not sure if someone refuted that yet), which pretty much makes it much more valuable by virtue of being the last known existing art that shows the first appearance of arguably one of the most popular pop culture characters in today's existence. Everyone seems to be overlooking that point.

 

If the 181 where to somehow show up, I would imagine the perceived value of that 180 page would drop instantly.

 

A Boardie confirmed with Len Wein that the #181 pages were not lost in the fire and are in the process of being restored from unspecified damage.

 

X-Men #101 is the more valuable comic book than X-Men #137, but, in the OA world, we don't play by those rules - for example, McSpidey #1 is an almost worthless comic book, but the art is one of the most iconic and memorable images from the '90s, so, hence, its $358.5K auction price). Zero question that a top Byrne/Austin cover to one of the most memorable books from the '80s is going to absolutely trounce the valuation of any of the X-Men Cockrum covers except for the key books that were pencilled by Kane and inked by Cockrum (GSXM 1, UXM 94).

 

Honestly, I wasn't even referring to which comic was more valuable, just the cover images themselves. I'll admit I've only gotten into the older X-Men books in the past year or so. But I've seen many more references made to the 101 cover than I have to the 137 cover. I think the 101 cover is really cool myself, the 137, not really. Just sharing my experience and opinion though so it may not be the norm

[RockMyAmadeus]

Interesting about the perception on 101/137. I'm attributing more to my personal perceived worth ... but the argument makes sense. The fact that so much was paid for DKR page and McSpidey/Hulk cover corroborates your explanation as well. Thanks.

 

While Byrne absolutely trumps Cockrum in most things, there are a few things that makes the cover to X-Men #101 about on par with #137:

 

First, the layout to #101 is superior to #137. #101 is focused entirely on Phoenix, she is the central (and centered) figure on the page:

 

 

Whereas, on #137, the focus is split between Phoenix and Cyclops (though Jean is slightly more centered.)

 

 

Also...in #101, she appears in her Phoenix costume (well...none of it is really Jean, after all, but you know what I mean), whereas #137 has her in her mid-60's Marvel Girl uniform.

 

And, #101 features Storm, Cyclops, and Nightcrawler, and is the first appearance of Phoenix, as well as being closer to the All New, All Different, and, of course, the value of the resultant comics themselves has some weight, if not much.

 

#101, just considered on compositional merits, is a better, more dynamic image than #137. Yes, Byrne counts for so much more than Cockrum, but in this case, the factors in Cockrum's favor tend to balance out quite a bit.

[Bronty]

I have no dog in that race and know very little about xmen oa prices as Ive just never been a fan of the xmen, but my perception is that there is a lot if extra value on the 137 because its the climax of a long and popular storyline

 

Ie its not just about the images, there's a lot of factors

[techtre2003]

I think the big yellow banner on the 137 is a big distraction that takes away from the image; maybe part of why I don't find it nearly as appealing?

[Rip]

Oh come on, now. You and I both know that changing the meaning of something that someone says when it is a point of contention isn't fair play.

 

And in other threads, he said, more than once, that "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened"...which flies in the face of the study of history itself.

 

 

Well, there's that gross mischaracterization and what I actually said on the matter:

 

No, it's pretty much spot on with what you said here:

 

Also, weren't you like 1 or 2 years old in 1983 (based on what you said before) and not even born in 1981 (when Kitty was allegedly the most popular X-Man)? I really would like to know how these claims can be at all supported - I'll trust my potentially unreliable memories over your no memories any day.

 

And, in one fell swoop, you not only completely discounted my argument for no other reason than "you weren't there", but you also confused what someone else said with me.

 

Are you seriously going to deny that's what your quoted statement here is....?

 

Anyway, your arguments (many of which were simply ) were comprehensively refuted by various Boardies wielding various pieces of evidence (price data, circulation data, fan surveys, first-hand recollection, cover appearances across titles, etc.) while you offered up easily refuted points such as cover appearances preceding the relevant period in question, storyline ideas which were strictly editorial/creative and not a reflection of fan popularity, etc. And, when none of that worked, you tried to stealthily move the goalposts so that now 1986 somehow qualifies as "the late '80s". Face it - you were wrong, Wolverine was huge by 1983, and you chose to argue the point into oblivion rather than admit you were wrong.

 

We have all been over this before. I am perfectly capable of refuting your misstatements, false claims, misrepresentations, and erroneous "facts", but it serves no purpose. "Circulation data" does not prove who was the most popular X-Man, because the circulation data is for the X-MEN...NOT Wolverine, because he had no title of his own. And this is one of many of the mistakes you made in that discussion.

 

And no one "stealthily moved the goalposts", as you misrepresent here. I established the parameters of my argument as up to issue #200 from the outset. You may disagree with those parameters, but I certainly did not "stealthily change them" after the fact. Why do you keep doing this?

 

You are....again and again and again...trying to present your opinion as established fact.

 

"Argue the point into oblivion"...? Who tried to start up the argument AGAIN today...?

 

Hint: not me.

 

I will simply quote you one more time:

 

"The plural of anecdote is not evidence."

 

Nothing was "proven" as you claim, because, at the heart, we were talking about OPINION, and the fact that you think the memories of the 10-15 or so board members who chimed in to agree with you somehow constitutes a "comprehensive refutation" is beyond all sanity.

 

In any event, as usual, this accomplishes nothing good, so I will go back to ignoring you. I'm truly sorry it has come to this, really, but nothing good can come of trying to defend myself against you: you won't quit, no matter the truth.

 

So...I quit, as far as you are concerned.

 

I thought it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Wolverine was not only the most popular X-Men, but clearly one of the most popular Characters starting in 1978 to 1986. You did read the polling correct?

 

 

Eagle 1978: Favourite Character 5th Wolverine

Eagle 1978: Favourite Supporting Character 5th Wolverine

Eagle 1979: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

Eagle 1979: Favourite Supporting Character 1st Wolverine

Eagle 1980: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

Eagle 1980: Favourite Supporting Character 1st Wolverine

No awards 81 CBG starts in 82

CBG 1982: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

CBG 1982: Favourite Cover 1st Wolverine 1

Eagle 1983: Favourite Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1983: Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

CBG 1984: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

No Eagle in 85, and slimmed down in 84

CBG 1986: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/cbg86.php

Eagle 1986: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

Eagle 1986: Character Most Worthy of Own Title 1st Wolverine

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Award_%28comics%29

http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/cbg86.php

http://www.cbgxtra.com/knowledge-base/for-your-reference/cbg-fan-award-winners-1982-present

 

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2014 by Rip

[delekkerste]

Ie its not just about the images, there's a lot of factors

 

That's right, which is why it's so important to know which elements the market values and how much. Trying to ascertain valuation just by looking at the covers without any market context is not a very useful endeavor.

 

For the record, I'm not particularly fond of the #137 cover myself, but the market is what the market is. And I do know the market.

[techtre2003]

Oh come on, now. You and I both know that changing the meaning of something that someone says when it is a point of contention isn't fair play.

 

And in other threads, he said, more than once, that "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened"...which flies in the face of the study of history itself.

 

 

Well, there's that gross mischaracterization and what I actually said on the matter:

 

No, it's pretty much spot on with what you said here:

 

Also, weren't you like 1 or 2 years old in 1983 (based on what you said before) and not even born in 1981 (when Kitty was allegedly the most popular X-Man)? I really would like to know how these claims can be at all supported - I'll trust my potentially unreliable memories over your no memories any day.

 

And, in one fell swoop, you not only completely discounted my argument for no other reason than "you weren't there", but you also confused what someone else said with me.

 

Are you seriously going to deny that's what your quoted statement here is....?

 

Anyway, your arguments (many of which were simply ) were comprehensively refuted by various Boardies wielding various pieces of evidence (price data, circulation data, fan surveys, first-hand recollection, cover appearances across titles, etc.) while you offered up easily refuted points such as cover appearances preceding the relevant period in question, storyline ideas which were strictly editorial/creative and not a reflection of fan popularity, etc. And, when none of that worked, you tried to stealthily move the goalposts so that now 1986 somehow qualifies as "the late '80s". Face it - you were wrong, Wolverine was huge by 1983, and you chose to argue the point into oblivion rather than admit you were wrong.

 

We have all been over this before. I am perfectly capable of refuting your misstatements, false claims, misrepresentations, and erroneous "facts", but it serves no purpose. "Circulation data" does not prove who was the most popular X-Man, because the circulation data is for the X-MEN...NOT Wolverine, because he had no title of his own. And this is one of many of the mistakes you made in that discussion.

 

And no one "stealthily moved the goalposts", as you misrepresent here. I established the parameters of my argument as up to issue #200 from the outset. You may disagree with those parameters, but I certainly did not "stealthily change them" after the fact. Why do you keep doing this?

 

You are....again and again and again...trying to present your opinion as established fact.

 

"Argue the point into oblivion"...? Who tried to start up the argument AGAIN today...?

 

Hint: not me.

 

I will simply quote you one more time:

 

"The plural of anecdote is not evidence."

 

Nothing was "proven" as you claim, because, at the heart, we were talking about OPINION, and the fact that you think the memories of the 10-15 or so board members who chimed in to agree with you somehow constitutes a "comprehensive refutation" is beyond all sanity.

 

In any event, as usual, this accomplishes nothing good, so I will go back to ignoring you. I'm truly sorry it has come to this, really, but nothing good can come of trying to defend myself against you: you won't quit, no matter the truth.

 

So...I quit, as far as you are concerned.

 

I thought it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Wolverine was not only the most popular X-Men, but clearly one of the most popular Characters starting in 1978 to 1986. You did read the polling correct?

 

 

Eagle 1978: Favourite Character 5th Wolverine

Eagle 1978: Favourite Supporting Character 5th Wolverine

Eagle 1979: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

Eagle 1979: Favourite Supporting Character 1st Wolverine

Eagle 1980: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

Eagle 1980: Favourite Supporting Character 1st Wolverine

No awards 81 CBG starts in 82

CBG 1982: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

CBG 1982: Favourite Cover 1st Wolverine 1

Eagle 1983: Favourite Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1983: Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

CBG 1984: Favourite Character 1st Wolverine

No Eagle in 85, and slimmed down in 84

CBG 1986: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/cbg86.php

Eagle 1986: Favourite Character 2nd Wolverine

Eagle 1986: Character Most Worthy of Own Title 1st Wolverine

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Award_%28comics%29

http://www.hahnlibrary.net/comics/awards/cbg86.php

http://www.cbgxtra.com/knowledge-base/for-your-reference/cbg-fan-award-winners-1982-present

 

 

 

 

That's just in the UK though right? They don't count..

[The-Collector]

 

I agree standing in front of a Pollock is entirely different to viewing pictures.

 

I may have made a 1million plus statement re the hulk 180 page. In light of more informed opinions I officially retract that piece of hyperbole.

 

 

The "more informed opinion" has stated, multiple times, that "you weren't there, so you couldn't possibly know what happened" with regards to events in the comics industry, among other misstatements.

 

You know...despite the reality of History departments in schools all over the world.

 

 

I wasn't referring specifically to delekkerste. I just read through the thread and changed my mind.

[Rip]

Dem UK guys are nuts. Your right only count CBG. (thumbs u

 

 

Edited April 25, 2014 by Rip

[techtre2003]

Ie its not just about the images, there's a lot of factors

 

That's right, which is why it's so important to know which elements the market values and how much. Trying to ascertain valuation just by looking at the covers without any market context is not a very useful endeavor.

 

For the record, I'm not particularly fond of the #137 cover myself, but the market is what the market is. And I do know the market.

 

True, but you have the creation of the Phoenix in 101 which to me is just as important (if not more so) than the death in 137. And using the same logic as the Wolvie 180-181 situation; the market has decided 101 is the more important book correct?

[Bronty]

I guess the way I look at it is these things are fluid. The people cutting the checks get to make the rules and decide what's more important

[RockMyAmadeus]

I thought it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Wolverine was not only the most popular X-Men, but clearly one of the most popular Characters starting in 1978 to 1986. You did read the polling correct?

 

Since I POSTED the CBG results, I think it's safe to say that I read them, yes.

 

As I said before, these polls are only a part of the picture.

 

Watch:

 

Eagle 1978: Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1978: Favourite Supporting Character: Pip The Troll (yes, that's Pip the Troll...those Brits are a funny lot.)

Eagle 1979 Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1979 Favourite Supporting Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Supporting Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Cover Wolverine 1

CBG 1983 Favorite Character: Batman

Eagle 1983 Favourite Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1983 Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

CBG 1984 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1984: Favourite Character: Torquemada.

 

Notice, the Eagle Awards voted Wolvie SUPPORTING (meaning, not STARRING) character for the two years he was favorite character, too, which means those people thought of him in a support role, not a leading one.

 

And, then, with CBG awards, Batman appears 19 times. Wolverine appears in 1982 and 1984, and then is never seen again. 1986 is not considered, as it is not in contention.

 

A bit different. when everything is considered.

 

And your analysis is incorrect. The listings are for nominees, not "2nd place, 5th place", etc.

 

How do these polls prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt"....?

 

Supporting character works against your argument.

 

And let's consider the conversation at Marvel:

 

Shooter: "We'd like to issue some new titles, who do you think would be able to support their own title?"

 

Editors: "How about Dazzler?"

 

Shooter: "Ok, sounds good. In fact, we can use that title to see if this Direct Market thing is for real. Next?"

 

E: "Moon Knight?"

 

Shooter: "Perfect"

 

E: "Claremont's got a new idea with these New Mutants. How about them?"

 

S: "Great. And Byrne's been chomping at the bit to get his own series, so Alpha Flight it is."

 

E: "Don't forget Rom!"

 

S: "Totally."

 

E: "How about Wolverine? I hear he's getting pretty popular in X-Men."

 

S: "Wolverine? I don't think he can support a book. He's more of an anti-hero. We should probably do something like Power Pack."

 

E: "Well, how about a mini-series, then? Miller's red hot, we could convince him to do it!"

 

S: "Ok, sounds good, but let's also do another one at the same time. I know...HERCULES! That'll sell like hotcakes!"

 

E: "Yeah! Claremont said he was worried about overexposure of the X-Men, though. Man, he gets a little territorial with those characters!"

 

S: "We are Marvel. If it will make money, we print it. That's why Spidey has 4 titles all to himself. I don't think Wolvie is popular enough to carry his own series."

 

E: "Yeah, you're probably right."

 

[bronze_rules]

 

Eagle 1978: Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1978: Favourite Supporting Character: Pip The Troll (yes, that's Pip the Troll...those Brits are a funny lot.)

Eagle 1979 Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1979 Favourite Supporting Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Supporting Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Cover Wolverine 1

CBG 1983 Favorite Character: Batman

Eagle 1983 Favourite Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1983 Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

CBG 1984 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1984: Favourite Character: Torquemada.

 

Notice, the Eagle Awards voted Wolvie SUPPORTING (meaning, not STARRING) character for the two years he was favorite character, too, which means those people thought of him in a support role, not a leading one.

 

edit: regardless of whether he was perceived as a supporting cast member at the time, the overall question of debate (I think) is whether or not Wolverine was very popular before the late 80s amongst comic fans. If you are/were arguing popularity in the mainstream population... different argument and I don't disagree.

 

He likely won best supporting because he was a member of a cast of characters, and simultaneous standalone best, because he was clearly dominant over the other characters in the group from a popularity perspective. If anything, winning both of these roles should strongly support his immense popularity early on with fans.

 

I'm not even sure whether the term, 'lead' or 'starring' is really appropriate here, because a character can be immensely popular and not necessarily have their own title . In his case, it was a particularly strong vote of popularity, considering he didn't even have his own title by then.

 

I assume you made up the conversation, and got your point there, but regardless, having those concrete awards adds much greater support to the argument that wolverine was very popular among fans early in the 80s, than say, a hypothetical conversation.

 

And wasn't your whole argument that Wolverine wasn't that popular until LATE 80s? I'd say the consistency of wins in early 80s you posted pretty much refutes that. I didn't fully follow the argument, but I assume you are talking about popularity in the context of comic book fans.

 

edit: even more color.

 

Regardless, of if he actually took first place, just looking over the late 70s early 80s awards, both Wolverine and his team were consistently placing in popularity awards categories... over and over (top 5 in a universe of characters). I'd say that's a pretty strong argument that he was popular amongst comic fans much before the late 80s. And as at least one other noted, it's not like any other X-Men characters tended to show up in individual popularity awards fairly consistently; in an ensemble team that dominated popularity; he was clearly a standout. I envision wolverine collecting awards in 1980, much like Michael Jackson did in 84.

 

1978

 

-Favourite Comic Book (Dramatic)

Uncanny X-Men

-Favourite Character

Batman, Conan, Howard the Duck, Warlock, Wolverine

-Favourite Supporting Character

Pip the Troll, Beverly Switzler, Impossible Man, Vision, Wolverine

-Favourite Team

X-Men,Defenders,Fantastic Four, Avengers, Justice Society of America

 

1979

-Favourite Comic (US)

X-Men, The Avengers, The Tomb of Dracula, Detective Comics,Jonah Hex

-Favourite Character (US)

Batman,Wolverine, Conan,Doctor Strange,Howard the Duck,Spider-Man

-Favourite Group or Team

X-Men,Legion of Super-Heroes,Fantastic Four,Defenders,The Avengers

-Favourite Supporting Character

Wolverine,Beast,Beverly Switzler,Hawkeye,Nightcrawler,Vision

 

 

1980

-Favourite Comicbook

X-Men, Avengers,Master of Kung Fu

-Favourite Comicbook Character

Wolverine,Batman,Spider-Man

-Favourite Supporting Character

Wolverine,Beast,Vision

-Favourite Comicbook Team

X-Men,Avengers, Fantastic Four

 

1983

-Favourite Character: Wolverine

 

It's hard to use CBG as a reference pulse for character popularity, as I only have historical access to the top 1st place winner. That being said, Batman and Spider-Man dominated the polls and of the 6 out of 24 non Batman/Spider-Man winners that did manage to beat them out, only Wolverine had twice the wins (in early 80s). I'd say that's pretty significant.

 

Favorite Character

1982 Wolverine

1983 Batman (tie)

1983 Cerebus (tie)

1983 Reuben Flagg (tie)

1984 Wolverine

1985 Batman

1986 Batman

1987 Batman

1988 Batman

1989 Spider-man

1990 Spider-man

1991 Spider-man

1992 Spawn

1993 Batman

1994 Batman

1995 Donald's Nephews (Huey, Dewey, Louie)

1996 Batman

1997 Batman

1998 Batman

1999 Batman

2000 Batman

2001 Spider-man

2002 Batman

2003 Batman

2004 Batman

2005 Batman

2006 Batman (tie)

2006 Spider-man (tie)

[Rip]

I thought it was proven beyond reasonable doubt that Wolverine was not only the most popular X-Men, but clearly one of the most popular Characters starting in 1978 to 1986. You did read the polling correct?

 

Since I POSTED the CBG results, I think it's safe to say that I read them, yes.

 

As I said before, these polls are only a part of the picture.

 

Watch:

 

Eagle 1978: Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1978: Favourite Supporting Character: Pip The Troll (yes, that's Pip the Troll...those Brits are a funny lot.)

Eagle 1979 Favourite Character: Batman

Eagle 1979 Favourite Supporting Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1980 Favourite Supporting Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Character Wolverine

CBG 1982 Favourite Cover Wolverine 1

CBG 1983 Favorite Character: Batman

Eagle 1983 Favourite Character: Wolverine

Eagle 1983 Favourite Single or Continued Story: Wolverine #1-4 (miniseries)

CBG 1984 Favourite Character Wolverine

Eagle 1984: Favourite Character: Torquemada.

 

Notice, the Eagle Awards voted Wolvie SUPPORTING (meaning, not STARRING) character for the two years he was favorite character, too, which means those people thought of him in a support role, not a leading one.

 

And, then, with CBG awards, Batman appears 19 times. Wolverine appears in 1982 and 1984, and then is never seen again. 1986 is not considered, as it is not in contention.

 

A bit different. when everything is considered.

 

And your analysis is incorrect. The listings are for nominees, not "2nd place, 5th place", etc.

 

How do these polls prove anything "beyond a reasonable doubt"....?

 

Supporting character works against your argument.

 

 

I don't see how winning Supporting character works against the argument when he is part of a group. Maybe I made a mistake on nominees since I saw Wolverine moving up the list it seemed to make sense, and the Nominees are only noted on the first polling. And yes the CBG is clearly 2nd place.

And still I don't see any other X-Men represented as much let alone anyone else from Marvel. In 1980 he won both, not sure how that helps you with most popular X-Men.

 

Even if you drop nominations the list above is damning enough.

 

Can you honestly show me one other Marvel Character let alone X-Men winning more.

 

"Batman appears 19 times."

So what? Tell me something that has to do with the debate.

 

Edited April 25, 2014 by Rip

[Chip Cataldo]

I held the OA for the X-men #137 cover in one hand and the page where Phoenix dies in the other. To say my hands were shaking is an understatement. Good times, though.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

Edited April 25, 2014 by Chip Cataldo

[RockMyAmadeus]

[

 

And wasn't your whole argument that Wolverine wasn't that popular until LATE 80s? )

 

My argument is that Wolverine was not a superstar until 1986-up.

 

Was he very popular? Yes, of course.

 

But...and this is a key that many want to diminish, but it speaks volumes: he wasn't popular enough to get his own series. Marvel did not think he could carry his own series, when they thought dozens of others could.

 

He was simply not considered a "solo" character, and could not be a superstar in his own right because of it. He was part of a team. An integral part of the team, yes. But part of a team nonetheless. Just like Sue, Johnny, and Reed didn't have their own series, but the Thing did, because Marvel believed that the Thing was the most popular character on the team (which was proven correct, by virtue of him carrying his own series for 136 consecutive issues.)

 

He appeared high on fan award polls, yes. But it has to be taken into account that those poll results are from people who were very big comic fans to begin with, and who cared enough to respond. They are not scientific. That doesn't mean they have no value...of course not. But they are not scientific, and they are most decidedly skewed towards people who were already huge fans to begin with.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

I held the OA for the X-men #137 cover in one hand and the page where Phoenix dies in the other. To say my hands were shaking is an understatement. Good times, though.

 

Peace,

 

Chip

 

That is pretty cool. A couple years ago, at San Diego, I held the double page spread of "The Frost Giant's Daughter" from Conan #16 in my hands. I felt the same way.

 

[delekkerste]

True, but you have the creation of the Phoenix in 101 which to me is just as important (if not more so) than the death in 137. And using the same logic as the Wolvie 180-181 situation; the market has decided 101 is the more important book correct?

 

I wouldn't agree with either statement. The creation of the Phoenix storyline is nowhere near as important as the Dark Phoenix storyline which culminates with the Death of Phoenix. The latter is generally considered to be the peak of not only the GSXM 1 - UXM 143 run, but probably of the entire X-Men canon overall. The creation of Phoenix? Good story, but not any more special than the X-Men vs. Alpha Flight or the X-Men in the Savage Land - no one is going to point to it as the pinnacle of the run.

 

UXM #101 is only the more valuable book because there is probably an order of magnitude more copies of #137 that were kept well-preserved, since it came out later when the X-Men were much more popular. It is in no way the more significant/important book - the Death of Phoenix is much more memorable than the creation of Phoenix. The same argument could apply to DD #168 and #181 - #181 is universally regarded as the better and more significant book, but its value is a fraction that of Elektra's first appearance in #168 because the run was such a hit by that point that many more copies of #181 were preserved. Nonetheless, in terms of the OA, it's no contest - the best #181 pages would probably fetch 2-3x as much as the best #168 pages.

 

I don't know if there are any #101 pages floating around, but the last 3 pages of #100 (where Jean sacrifices herself) were for sale last year and got no bids at a reserve price that was less than what a single #137 page sold for in 2011 (the page where Jean asks Scott to kill her - very similar thematically to the #100 pages that were for sale).

 

In the marketplace, there's absolutely no question - #137 art is at/near the pinnacle of values for the run.

[delekkerste]

I don't see how winning Supporting character works against the argument when he is part of a group. Maybe I made a mistake on nominees since I saw Wolverine moving up the list it seemed to make sense, and the Nominees are only noted on the first polling. And yes the CBG is clearly 2nd place.

And still I don't see any other X-Men represented as much let alone anyone else from Marvel. In 1980 he won both, not sure how that helps you with most popular X-Men.

 

Even if you drop nominations the list above is damning enough.

 

Can you honestly show me one other Marvel Character let alone X-Men winning more.

 

"Batman appears 19 times."

So what? Tell me something that has to do with the debate.

 

Exactly. The way to look at it is that he was so popular he won multiple categories, whereas his teammates who were allegedly just as popular according to the other side, didn't even make the nomination cut. Wolverine anchored Marvel's hottest and fastest-growing title in the early '80s. There were many reasons (business, editorial and creative-related) not to give him a permanent solo series despite his massive popularity, until later on, none of which was concern over his lack of popularity. To think that they thought ROM, Moon Knight and Dazzler were popular enough to carry their own series and Wolverine was not makes absolutely zero sense and is simply absurd. Clearly a Wolverine solo series would have been a certain hit, as the massive popularity of the 1982 mini-series confirmed.

 

Wolverine was a superstar by 1983 and it had clearly been building up for a period of years leading up to that. He got a ton of exposure in the main UXM title and elsewhere in 1986, but to say that's when he broke out is confusing cause and effect. He got all that exposure in 1986 precisely because he was so popular and had become *the* fan favorite long before then. Not to mention 1986 is not the "late '80s" as was initially argued - in fact, I explicitly argued in the other thread that all of Wolverine's appearances in 1986 proved that he was ubiquitous by the mid-'80s, long before he finally got his overdue solo series in 1988.