CGC Comments Regarding the JIM 83

[MatterEaterLad]

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7607405#Post7607405

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7593054#Post7593054

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7588291#Post7588291

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7578905#Post7578905

 

 

 

Looks like someone with a hidden agenda.

 

It's easy to take it out on this guy but let's not forget that this whole fiasco only underlines the fact that resto detection is really hard and CGC seems to be guessing half the time.

 

[VintageComics]

It's easy to take it out on this guy but let's not forget that this whole fiasco only underlines the fact that resto detection is really hard and CGC seems to be guessing half the time.

 

Whoah there. You're saying that 1/2 the books CGC has graded have incorrectly assigned resto designations?

 

Don't you think that 'guessing half the time' is a gross exaggeration/misrepresentation?

 

 

[Hado]

Yes, it is easy to take it out on the gentleman who cracked a purple label book and sold it raw as unrestored.

[gaz973]

Yes, it is easy to take it out on the gentleman who cracked a purple label book and sold it raw as unrestored.

I'm certainly not trying to defend that guy as he was obviously trying to sell a book that was strongly suspected of being trimmed but I believe it was in a blue label when he sold it.

[Balham's Finest]

Yes, it is easy to take it out on the gentleman who cracked a purple label book and sold it raw as unrestored.

I'm certainly not trying to defend that guy as he was obviously trying to sell a book that was strongly suspected of being trimmed but I believe it was in a blue label when he sold it.

 

It really doesn't matter whether he thought it was trimmed or not, or that it was in a blue label when he sold it. The fact that he didn't disclose the fiasco surrounding the book is what's shady.

[gaz973]

Yes, it is easy to take it out on the gentleman who cracked a purple label book and sold it raw as unrestored.

I'm certainly not trying to defend that guy as he was obviously trying to sell a book that was strongly suspected of being trimmed but I believe it was in a blue label when he sold it.

 

It really doesn't matter whether he thought it was trimmed or not, or that it was in a blue label when he sold it. The fact that he didn't disclose the fiasco surrounding the book is what's shady.

Exactly. In fact it seems that he didn't just fail to disclose it, he blatantly lied about it.

[skypinkblu]

Hello all, Just so everyone is clear... I am the one who has recently submitted this book- I bought this book for money and a trade of a SA GL 1 7.5... I was told that it was a raw book and believed that it had never been graded by CGC or anyone else... but was not given a clear history beyond that- The guy who sold it to me said he did not know history - not sure if this is true or not- But until CCS's Matt called me and gave me a rundown of the history of the CGC labels and grades- I knew nothing of its history - To the credit of CGC and CCS (they are the one's "MATT really" who alerted me to all the shenanigans around this book)- I did scrutinize this book when received and I thought that it looked completely unrestored in all ways- and do not think that it has ever been trimmed- it holds up incredibly well to my other graded copies of JIM 83- actually looks better than the 7.0 copy I have- the covers are all pretty much exactly the same size- and although CGC is a little to tough on reader creases- they don't bother me so much- I think the book is pretty nice- considering the mistake on previous labels- and as a general comment on the subject -CCS and CGC made the effort to contact me on 4-25-14... so I have to give them credit for being honest brokers and trying to do the right thing with regards to this copy of JIM 83.

 

Thank You for coming forward!

 

The seller knew all of the history behind this book. I believe this Boardie should be considered for the HOS?

 

If he cracked the book out of a purple label and didn't disclose it when he sold it that's really bad...I don't know if it qualifies for HOS, but it's bad.

 

However, I wonder how many people disclose the history of the books they sell? We'd have an awfully long list I suspect.

 

Pressing? We've had many debates on disclosure. Personally I disclose if I have a book pressed, but I don't think more than a few dozen others do that anymore, it seems to have fallen out of favor, or people are so used to it, they ignore it.

 

Resubs? Does that count? The book used to be a 6.0, goes to a 7.0? I'd like to have that disclosed as well if I buy something I'd love to know if the grade varied. How many people do you think disclose resubs?

 

I don't follow your threads, Dan...is that something you do?

 

Of course we could also have many Costanza bathroom books floating around...not sure if we need to disclose those;) My point is, disclosing is going to affect the bottom line for a lot of people, quite a few people I'm sure.

[Mark 1]

The guy should have disclosed the history around the book. I'm sure he didn't want to because it would hurt his chances for selling it.

 

Doesn't matter though because he knew the history and chose to ignore telling the buyer. Horrible.

 

I once bought a book on the boards that was a ST 107 5.0 with a detached centerfold that was NOT on the label. When I bought it I was told by the seller the centerfold was detached.

 

When it came time to sell the book I didn't have to disclose anything as the label didn't say it... But I disclosed the CF issue because it was the right thing to do.

 

I also disclose pressing when I know it.

 

 

[Green Army Men]

to be clear, I have not received the new grade on the book as of yet- but I am displeased by the lack of disclosure on the books previous grades and history from the seller- I am just a collector and not a dealer- so I only really sell my books when I upgrade a copy or am broke and need some cash- I do send books to be pressed and have resubmitted some books my self over the years- funny when I do sell a book that has been pressed even I tell the buyer- as I think it is part of the hobby now- if you can still call it a hobby- so I feel rather taken advantage of right now- and will be letting the seller know this soon... as the book was presented as VF raw "never graded and never pressed" book really- and of course I had know way of knowing the history without the CGC labels- oh course I could go on and on about it- lets see if the dealer will make some kind of compensation for the subterfuge or not- I will let everyone know BTW- he says still he did not know as of saturday- and of course he sold the traded books already - CGC has made some mistakes on my books over the years- the biggest being a wonder woman 39 that was mislabeled as a wonder woman 1- but they did offer to fix the problem for free- but I have never had a blunder this size before-

[Buzzetta]

The guy should have disclosed the history around the book. I'm sure he didn't want to because it would hurt his chances for selling it.

 

Doesn't matter though because he knew the history and chose to ignore telling the buyer. Horrible.

 

I once bought a book on the boards that was a ST 107 5.0 with a detached centerfold that was NOT on the label. When I bought it I was told by the seller the centerfold was detached.

 

When it came time to sell the book I didn't have to disclose anything as the label didn't say it... But I disclosed the CF issue because it was the right thing to do.

 

I also disclose pressing when I know it.

 

 

Sadly, this will be astonishing to some because this is what people are supposed to do.

[MatterEaterLad]

It's easy to take it out on this guy but let's not forget that this whole fiasco only underlines the fact that resto detection is really hard and CGC seems to be guessing half the time.

 

Whoah there. You're saying that 1/2 the books CGC has graded have incorrectly assigned resto designations?

 

Don't you think that 'guessing half the time' is a gross exaggeration/misrepresentation?

 

 

I'm just talking about THIS book.

 

But this book showcases the problem. Because according to the experts at CGC, this book went Blue-Purple-Blue-Purple-but now Blue.

 

I love that Paul came out and said, "We screwed up," but his apology does absolutely nothing to win back my confidence that CGC is capable of resto detection with any kind of consistency.

 

And I hate it when folks say, "Don't like your grade, resub it." For the reason above, but also, seriously, how much money do I need to spend on resubs before they get it right?

 

 

 

[miraclemet]

If an ebay seller had done the same thing (cracked a purple slab, and then relisted it as a raw comic with no note of the previously detected restoration), wouldn't we be tarring and feathering the guy?

 

Is there a difference here? Only difference I can see if that the transaction was done behind closed doors with Green Army Men so there's no public record of the listing or the transaction....

 

There are plenty of decent sellers here who not only note past slab grades, but also past raw grade assessments (as in "Bought this from _____ who had it as a 8.0, I think its closer to a _____")

 

It is a slippery slope of what information is expected to be included, vs what is not. And heck I dont even always remember past grading history (just talking raw, I've never cracked), but when I do I provide it, but I cant provide it if I dont remember it... though I dont think this is a case where the seller "forgot" it was a trimmed PLOD...

[Buzzetta]

On my big books I actually buy the notes so if I make a private sale I can pass those along to the buyer.

 

On a book I have had cracked and pressed I buy the notes twice. For example, I had my X-Men 1 assessed as a 4.5 CPR'ed. I bought the notes again after the pressing as it came back as a 5.5. It was eye opening as to what was reported in each assessment.

 

Different graders see different things.

[Mike's Rack]

to be clear, I have not received the new grade on the book as of yet- but I am displeased by the lack of disclosure on the books previous grades and history from the seller- I am just a collector and not a dealer- so I only really sell my books when I upgrade a copy or am broke and need some cash- I do send books to be pressed and have resubmitted some books my self over the years- funny when I do sell a book that has been pressed even I tell the buyer- as I think it is part of the hobby now- if you can still call it a hobby- so I feel rather taken advantage of right now- and will be letting the seller know this soon... as the book was presented as VF raw "never graded and never pressed" book really- and of course I had know way of knowing the history without the CGC labels- oh course I could go on and on about it- lets see if the dealer will make some kind of compensation for the subterfuge or not- I will let everyone know BTW- he says still he did not know as of saturday- and of course he sold the traded books already - CGC has made some mistakes on my books over the years- the biggest being a wonder woman 39 that was mislabeled as a wonder woman 1- but they did offer to fix the problem for free- but I have never had a blunder this size before-

Green men, on what forum did you purchase this book? I'm curious how you got in touch with this seller and I want to make sure I don't run into him anywhere else.

[rjpb]

 

If he cracked the book out of a purple label and didn't disclose it when he sold it that's really bad...I don't know if it qualifies for HOS, but it's bad.

 

However, I wonder how many people disclose the history of the books they sell? We'd have an awfully long list I suspect.

 

Pressing? We've had many debates on disclosure. Personally I disclose if I have a book pressed, but I don't think more than a few dozen others do that anymore, it seems to have fallen out of favor, or people are so used to it, they ignore it.

 

Resubs? Does that count? The book used to be a 6.0, goes to a 7.0? I'd like to have that disclosed as well if I buy something I'd love to know if the grade varied. How many people do you think disclose resubs?

 

I don't follow your threads, Dan...is that something you do?

 

Of course we could also have many Costanza bathroom books floating around...not sure if we need to disclose those;) My point is, disclosing is going to affect the bottom line for a lot of people, quite a few people I'm sure.

 

While it would be nice if information like pressing or resub history be included when selling, I don't expect this from a seller, though I have disclosed pressing when I've been aware of it, as pressing, whatever one thinks of it, is still something that 's been done to "improve" the book.

 

Pressing is probably more of an issue than resub history, in that the CGC grade is just an opinion, and as we all know, subject to variance. It is still relevant as the book is being sold as CGC graded ( as opposed to crack and regrade raw), since the CGC grade is presumably an added selling point, and uncertainty on their part is unsettling to many.

 

When selling raw, revealing a prior assigned grade by another party seems largely to be done in the spirit of salesmanship, when the seller indicates they are as tight or tighter in their opinion than the previous grader. I can't recall a sale where someone has mentioned that either CGC or a major dealer graded a book lower than the seller thinks it is, though I'm sure it's happened.

 

A credible opinion of restoration is definitely something that should be disclosed, even if you believe it be incorrect. As this thread has illustrated, sometimes whether or not restoration exists can be a matter of opinion, but unlike with a numerical grade it is not meant to be a subjective one. Even the credible suspicion a book may have been restored should be disclosed. I say credible, as posts in the grading thread reveal there are those that wonder if every miscut might not be a trim.

 

It appears that the person who bought the book from Spider-Dan may have sold it not only without disclosure, but deliberately misrepresented the book as having never been graded by CGC, let alone most recently graded as restored. If this is the case, then the HOS is the least amount of condemnation they are due.

[Green Army Men]

It was a seller on ebay- but I had bought books from him in past that where fine and stated grade more or less - so it was a direct sale...so to speak- he contacted me through email and said he had an ungraded JIM 83 would I like to look at it- and sent me pictures etc... When I received the book I though it was nice as I have stated before- I have some knowledge of trimmed books- And I did not think it was trimmed- Of course basing trimming on the over spray seems somewhat dubious ... I have defiantly seen books that have no spray at all or small amounts of spray-

[techtre2003]

I don't think a seller is obligated to offer up a complete history of a book they are selling. I think if they do I would consider them a more trustworthy seller and would put them at the top of my list but I wouldn't just expect every seller to do this.

 

However, I DO think if a seller is asked the history and doesn't disclose what they know or just flat out lies; that's a huge problem. It sounds like this is what may be the case here.

[Green Army Men]

I would agree that the seller is not obliged to offer up all the history- but in this case it would have seemed prudent to say the least- as it obviously is a known book with certain flaws- considering the 4 different labels it has received- but being a gentleman- I am giving the seller an opportunity to make things right-

[techtre2003]

I would agree that the seller is not obliged to offer up all the history- but in this case it would have seemed prudent to say the least- as it obviously is a known book with certain flaws- considering the 4 different labels it has received- but being a gentleman- I am giving the seller an opportunity to make things right-

 

Yes, in your case I would agree (thumbs u

[skypinkblu]

 

If he cracked the book out of a purple label and didn't disclose it when he sold it that's really bad...I don't know if it qualifies for HOS, but it's bad.

 

However, I wonder how many people disclose the history of the books they sell? We'd have an awfully long list I suspect.

 

Pressing? We've had many debates on disclosure. Personally I disclose if I have a book pressed, but I don't think more than a few dozen others do that anymore, it seems to have fallen out of favor, or people are so used to it, they ignore it.

 

Resubs? Does that count? The book used to be a 6.0, goes to a 7.0? I'd like to have that disclosed as well if I buy something I'd love to know if the grade varied. How many people do you think disclose resubs?

 

I don't follow your threads, Dan...is that something you do?

 

Of course we could also have many Costanza bathroom books floating around...not sure if we need to disclose those;) My point is, disclosing is going to affect the bottom line for a lot of people, quite a few people I'm sure.

 

While it would be nice if information like pressing or resub history be included when selling, I don't expect this from a seller, though I have disclosed pressing when I've been aware of it, as pressing, whatever one thinks of it, is still something that 's been done to "improve" the book.

 

Pressing is probably more of an issue than resub history, in that the CGC grade is just an opinion, and as we all know, subject to variance. It is still relevant as the book is being sold as CGC graded ( as opposed to crack and regrade raw), since the CGC grade is presumably an added selling point, and uncertainty on their part is unsettling to many.

 

When selling raw, revealing a prior assigned grade by another party seems largely to be done in the spirit of salesmanship, when the seller indicates they are as tight or tighter in their opinion than the previous grader. I can't recall a sale where someone has mentioned that either CGC or a major dealer graded a book lower than the seller thinks it is, though I'm sure it's happened.

 

A credible opinion of restoration is definitely something that should be disclosed, even if you believe it be incorrect. As this thread has illustrated, sometimes whether or not restoration exists can be a matter of opinion, but unlike with a numerical grade it is not meant to be a subjective one. Even the credible suspicion a book may have been restored should be disclosed. I say credible, as posts in the grading thread reveal there are those that wonder if every miscut might not be a trim.

 

It appears that the person who bought the book from Spider-Dan may have sold it not only without disclosure, but deliberately misrepresented the book as having never been graded by CGC, let alone most recently graded as restored. If this is the case, then the HOS is the least amount of condemnation they are due.

 

I agree that the seller was wrong and the more I read, the more wrong I think he was...

 

I probably didn't say what I meant clearly enough, because I was not trying to bash Dan so I was trying too hard to be general, but this whole scenario brought to light something I had not paid much attention to before.

 

The fact that resubbing is very prevalent...not just press and resub (which I do think should be disclosed) but just plain resubbing.

 

I agree that different graders have different opinions and since the books are graded by a "professional grading company", I'd like to see that disclosed. I don't need to know what someone like me would grade the book, I do want to know what CGC graded it.

 

Maybe I'm going too far, but I'm more disturbed about the whole underground aspect of these actions (esp the guy who cracked a "restored" book and sold it without disclosure) than I am about the fact that CGC made an error.

 

On average, they don't make many errors...which is one reason why I want to know prior grades.

 

The other reason is...I want this to stay a hobby...not some tainted side business that will possibly ruin comics as a hobby.

 

When I buy books, I try and buy from people who are upfront. I just feel happier when someone goes out of their way to show me something.

 

I once bought a Captain America #10 from Bedrock. He went out of his way to point out there was a strip missing from the first page. You couldn't tell from the cover and I might have grabbed it without knowing. I loved that book...I finally sold it last year when I upgraded, but I was always happy with the book. I bought it knowing the flaws.

 

I've gotten other books and found out later, that there were things about them that I was not told. Someone who used to own the book would tell me, or I'd find something when I had time to really look through it. I'm never really in love with those books after I find out.

 

I just wish people would share information honestly and without fear of losing a dime. We DO have dealers who make a good living with comics and who are honest and we have collectors who sell and trade their books and who are upfront.

 

Just makes the hobby more fun. There have too many clouds hovering lately, people look for the tiniest flaw and blow it up because there is a feeling that things are hidden...and unfortunately from what I'm reading lately, there are many flaws.

 

Is it better now with CGC? I don't know...and I am not blaming CGC, I'm blaming the people who have taken advantage of loopholes. I also don't know if those loopholes were part of the business model, or just plain loopholes.

 

I'm probably not expressing myself correctly again...I didn't want to make light of the issue,I certainly would not oppose tar and feathers for someone who out and out lied about the book being in a purple label and the history, but I'm not sure that's the end of the problem...not that one issue.