CGC Comments Regarding the JIM 83

[mrmyst]

I have time for this.

 

[Buzzetta]

Why doesn't CGC keep a database of scans of all books they slab, available to the public? We could see how many books out there take up 4-6 slots on the registry. At the very least they could do it for all high end books, I don't see how a company that makes money on giving collectors "peace of mind" wouldn't be transparent with all information they have.

 

People have stolen images for rare books before and used them. It is common practice for the scammers on ebay.

 

Not an expert, but couldn't they put a see through CGC logo over the image to prevent scammers from using. Something like CGC FILE IMAGE over the scan. Then people would know the seller isn't using their own image.

 

Yep, it's a watermark.

 

With all the keen eyes on these boards CGC could use a FREE resource (multitude of board members with free time on their hands and yes I am looking at you KAV) to clean up the census numbers. Start at the high value comics and work their way down. Did I mention that CGC could be utilizing a FREE resource to help them complete this task? This is a no brainer IMHO and a win for CGC and win for customers who want to know exactly how many copies of a certain comic are actually out there. Is this logistically impossible? Is there a down side that I am not seeing?

 

I would estimate that when it comes to major keys like AF15, FF1, X-Men 1 that the census is off by about 20% and with minor keys like FF48 or early numbers in silver runs like ASM3 that the census is off by 15% to 10% after all the years of submitting books.

 

If anyone thinks I am off please speak up. We will never know the true number but I would like to know what the general consensus is.

[Rip]

I can only imagine how many times these poor books have gone throughout the refurbish factory

Yeah, that's the sad thing. We need a "in reverse" video on comic re-subs.

 

 

Funny, but I hope there isn't anyone that thinks this video is real.

Just look at the layers and time in the upper corner.

[Boba]

Sounds like they really thought about this one and came up with a fair resolution.

[Waylander]

Why doesn't CGC keep a database of scans of all books they slab, available to the public? We could see how many books out there take up 4-6 slots on the registry. At the very least they could do it for all high end books, I don't see how a company that makes money on giving collectors "peace of mind" wouldn't be transparent with all information they have.

 

People have stolen images for rare books before and used them. It is common practice for the scammers on ebay.

 

Not an expert, but couldn't they put a see through CGC logo over the image to prevent scammers from using. Something like CGC FILE IMAGE over the scan. Then people would know the seller isn't using their own image.

 

Yep, it's a watermark.

 

With all the keen eyes on these boards CGC could use a FREE resource (multitude of board members with free time on their hands and yes I am looking at you KAV) to clean up the census numbers. Start at the high value comics and work their way down. Did I mention that CGC could be utilizing a FREE resource to help them complete this task? This is a no brainer IMHO and a win for CGC and win for customers who want to know exactly how many copies of a certain comic are actually out there. Is this logistically impossible? Is there a down side that I am not seeing?

 

I would estimate that when it comes to major keys like AF15, FF1, X-Men 1 that the census is off by about 20% and with minor keys like FF48 or early numbers in silver runs like ASM3 that the census is off by 15% to 10% after all the years of submitting books.

 

If anyone thinks I am off please speak up. We will never know the true number but I would like to know what the general consensus is.

 

I think modern number are reasonably accurate. But with pressing, bronze and especially silver keys are off and I would say a lot have had a 'unnatural' bump without their original grading being removed. 20% maybe about right across the bronze age and silver age.

[slym2none]

Dang dude I got in 3 brawls yesterday-that wasn't enough???

 

I missed those. Please start some new ones and PM me links.

 

 

 

 

-slym

[Jaylam]

Why doesn't CGC keep a database of scans of all books they slab, available to the public? We could see how many books out there take up 4-6 slots on the registry. At the very least they could do it for all high end books, I don't see how a company that makes money on giving collectors "peace of mind" wouldn't be transparent with all information they have.

 

People have stolen images for rare books before and used them. It is common practice for the scammers on ebay.

 

Not an expert, but couldn't they put a see through CGC logo over the image to prevent scammers from using. Something like CGC FILE IMAGE over the scan. Then people would know the seller isn't using their own image.

 

Yep, it's a watermark.

 

With all the keen eyes on these boards CGC could use a FREE resource (multitude of board members with free time on their hands and yes I am looking at you KAV) to clean up the census numbers. Start at the high value comics and work their way down. Did I mention that CGC could be utilizing a FREE resource to help them complete this task? This is a no brainer IMHO and a win for CGC and win for customers who want to know exactly how many copies of a certain comic are actually out there. Is this logistically impossible? Is there a down side that I am not seeing?

 

I would estimate that when it comes to major keys like AF15, FF1, X-Men 1 that the census is off by about 20% and with minor keys like FF48 or early numbers in silver runs like ASM3 that the census is off by 15% to 10% after all the years of submitting books.

 

If anyone thinks I am off please speak up. We will never know the true number but I would like to know what the general consensus is.

 

I think modern number are reasonably accurate. But with pressing, bronze and especially silver keys are off and I would say a lot have had a 'unnatural' bump without their original grading being removed. 20% maybe about right across the bronze age and silver age.

 

If I re-sub a book, I always send in the old label. I did get to a point that I had about 5 old labels lying around, but I just put those in a first class envelope and sent them in to CGC. I appeal to all board members to send in your old labels so the census is as accurate as it can be. That can only benefit all of us. Who knows, maybe that 9.6 book you have is not really 1 of 6 in that grade, but possibly the only one that has been re-subbed 5 times. How much more valuable is it if it's the only one versus 1 of 6. If we don't try to keep the census accurate, then the market looks more diluted than it really is, and that's hurting everyone's bottom line. So send in those old labels, and if you threw them away for some reason, notify CGC anyway, you still might be able to retrieve the old number with a little research.

[jbud73]

As always I like to error on the side of the collector. What I got from this series of the threads was pretty simple.

 

'Everyone at CGC involved in grading had a look at the book a few weeks ago and thought it was trimmed.'

 

'Everyone CGC and other outside opinions were consulted (most likely regarding the distro spray that was the determining factor in assigning PLOD) and they reversed their decision (not counting the blind submission assessments) and decided the book had not been trimmed.'

 

So where does this leave collectors buying 5K range Marvel Keys?

 

Well you would be extremely foolish to think that the JIM 83 incident is an aberration.

 

But if you want to buy a SA key what are your options? Well assuming you are not able to find a OO JIM 83 in the wild, which is a pretty good assumption to make. You are most likely going to buy a slabbed book and if that is the case you should IMO consider the following.

 

CGC Blue Holder books have the possibility (% of which is not able to be determined) to have one or all three techniques applied to them - pressing, cleaning, trimming. This has nothing to do with CGC's ability to grade, professionalism, standard etc .... it seems to me that that is just a statement of fact.

 

I will not even get into the iceberg that is, "there are probably PLOD books out there that have NOT been trimmed."

 

What you are left with in considering that knowledge is does it impact what are you buying and how much does that impact effect your desire to obtain said item and the associated cost you are willing to pay?

 

Another thing that this thread has reinforced with me and should with anyone that values their 5K is that history, provenance and WHO you buy the book from is just as, if not MORE important than the fact that the book is slabbed. Just because its in a CGC holder DOES NOT GUARANTEE YOU WHAT YOU MAY HAVE THOUGHT IT DOES.

 

Ask questions. Who subbed it, when, who was the previous owner if not the seller? What can you tell me about the book? These are all questions that are STILL important, maybe more important than ever. If the seller is not able to give you good information then maybe your 5K is better spent elsewhere. What do you do if the book is at auction, especially an auction house? That's a good question. Depending on the book you may still be able to get some info by doing some research and asking around. Even if you are buying at auction and can find no additional info on the book, be mindful of what you are getting, what CGC certification adds - it is still an informed opinion of three people that have the ability to detect and assess certain things, but it is also an opinion that does not Guarantee the book you buy has not been trimmed.

 

I respect Paul and CGC for coming forward with informative chronology and insight into the certification history of the JIM 83, but I do not think that information invalidates that statements made above.

 

[jimjum12]

I commend CGC for providing some insight into the processes used in determining trimming. Trimming, as has been stated, is very difficult to detect if done well. Fortunately, trimming is VERY difficult to do well..... and is going to be detectable in most cases. Anyone who thinks trimming is something that is being pulled off frequently should grab a book they don't care that much about from their collection, grab an exacto knife, and trim it. You will quickly see why trimming is not happening often .... and when it does, it will usually be obvious. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[Hamlet]

I agree that there are probably not many people that are able to trim books well enough to escape detection.

 

It doesn't neccessarily follow that there are not many trimmed books that escape detection.

 

It all depends on how busy those few people with high level trimming skills keep themselves.

 

I commend CGC for providing some insight into the processes used in determining trimming. Trimming, as has been stated, is very difficult to detect if done well. Fortunately, trimming is VERY difficult to do well..... and is going to be detectable in most cases. Anyone who thinks trimming is something that is being pulled off frequently should grab a book they don't care that much about from their collection, grab an exacto knife, and trim it. You will quickly see why trimming is not happening often .... and when it does, it will usually be obvious. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[jimjum12]

I agree that there are probably not many people that are able to trim books well enough to escape detection.

 

It doesn't neccessarily follow that there are not many trimmed books that escape detection.

 

It all depends on how busy those few people with high level trimming skills keep themselves.

 

I commend CGC for providing some insight into the processes used in determining trimming. Trimming, as has been stated, is very difficult to detect if done well. Fortunately, trimming is VERY difficult to do well..... and is going to be detectable in most cases. Anyone who thinks trimming is something that is being pulled off frequently should grab a book they don't care that much about from their collection, grab an exacto knife, and trim it. You will quickly see why trimming is not happening often .... and when it does, it will usually be obvious. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

..... there just won't be that many good enough..... and those few would almost have to do a disassembly to do a top or bottom trim..... right edge would likely be the easiest. A person can ruin a book real quick with a slip of the blade or a shift of the cover stock. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. I do understand your point .... and it must be enough for it to be on CGC's radar.

[techtre2003]

I commend CGC for providing some insight into the processes used in determining trimming. Trimming, as has been stated, is very difficult to detect if done well. Fortunately, trimming is VERY difficult to do well..... and is going to be detectable in most cases. Anyone who thinks trimming is something that is being pulled off frequently should grab a book they don't care that much about from their collection, grab an exacto knife, and trim it. You will quickly see why trimming is not happening often .... and when it does, it will usually be obvious. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I doubt the "pros" are using an exacto knife. I would assume they would use something like this:

trimmer

[Aces]

So what is the actual grade of the book now? Still 7.0 or did they drop it back to 6.0? Maybe they just went with 6.5 this time.

 

I asked when I talked to them this afternoon, and it hadn't been graded yet

How would that work? Send it back though blind? And if anybody thinks it's trimmed, fire them on the spot?

 

Just kidding.

Watch them find a micro dot of CT now...

[jimjum12]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

[techtre2003]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

 

I've got a cheap Wal-Mart version of one of those at home; I'm gonna try it out on an old book...

[Davenport]

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

Maybe, but key or classic high demand issues might be a different story.

 

[jimjum12]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

 

I've got a cheap Wal-Mart version of one of those at home; I'm gonna try it out on an old book...

 

...... that's the spirit ..... don't take someone's word for something as important to us as this. I tried it a few times.... long ago..... and F'd up several books.... and I'm a trained graphic artist who is VERY good with a blade .... it's NOT as simple as you would think. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[techtre2003]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

 

I've got a cheap Wal-Mart version of one of those at home; I'm gonna try it out on an old book...

 

...... that's the spirit ..... don't take someone's word for something as important to us as this. I tried it a few times.... long ago..... and F'd up several books.... and I'm a trained graphic artist who is VERY good with a blade .... it's NOT as simple as you would think. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm one of those people who has to touch the stove myself after someone else does and says "wow that's hot!" So really, it's not that I don't believe you. Curious though, were you just using a hand held blade or did you try it with an actual cutting device like I had posted?

[jbud73]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

 

But if you pulled 1,000 Marvel Keys in CGC holders I wonder how that theory remains in tact. Again we are not talking about the average book on the Con floor here. I also wish I still lived in a world where I believed that a book could be dis-assembled and not garner a blue label, sadly that world does not exist.

[jimjum12]

..... that would still require disassembly .... which is usually not that difficult to spot. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

P.S. If you pull 10,000 books off a convention floor..... odds are NONE of them will be trimmed.

 

I've got a cheap Wal-Mart version of one of those at home; I'm gonna try it out on an old book...

 

...... that's the spirit ..... don't take someone's word for something as important to us as this. I tried it a few times.... long ago..... and F'd up several books.... and I'm a trained graphic artist who is VERY good with a blade .... it's NOT as simple as you would think. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

 

I'm one of those people who has to touch the stove myself after someone else does and says "wow that's hot!" So really, it's not that I don't believe you. Curious though, were you just using a hand held blade or did you try it with an actual cutting device like I had posted?

 

...both. And I actually had the better results with the hand held approach.... but it was still a little wobbly and uneven..... plus there's evidence of a start and stop over a long stretch. Remember ....this was 25 years ago and not on books for resale. Back then resto was actually perceived as a means to INCREASE a books value. But the bottom line.... even if CGC tells us what they look for and we become adept ..... we still have to submit if we want that Blue Label. That slab is still the final status indicator. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u