Cole Schave collection: face jobs?

[originalisbest]

I read most all the pages -- may have missed some here and there. I think the CGC staffs' knowledge of, and experience with silver age Marvels -- their general appearance, propensity for shrinkage, overhang and what have you, probably extends beyond this thread and also predates it.

 

What is pretty clear (for some of the parties) is the intent of their debate.

 

 

Do you work for CGC....or merely suckle at its teat?

 

 

Oh, I think that was covered some 150 pages back. Answer's the same -- nope. And what, may I ask, are your motivations for the posts you make?

 

I don't like being lied to as a consumer. It's pretty much that simple.

 

Well that's fair. Neither do I. I suppose I just don't feel there's lying and subterfuge going on as you seem to, but your stance is certainly reasonable.

 

Can you honestly say that you feel CGC is being upfront with their customers?

 

I honestly think they're being either as (a) upfront as they can be at the present time, or (b) as upfront as they think is warranted/reasonable to be, or © probably a combo of both. It's easy enough for me to sit and opine, as I have no dog in the race, money on the line, etc., etc.

 

Can you give an answer that isn't a circle jerk? Good grief....we get enough of those from CGC already.

 

Sorry if that was too circle-jerky for you. I'll shorten it to "yes" and will assume you'll dismiss me as a shill or something. Feel better?

 

I feel great. Life is good.

 

Excellent to hear. Have to run now.

[Sqeggs]

Oh, as for my take on things -- I think it's much ado about nothing, and -- some doom and gloomers (one particular one, particularly) annoy me with their histrionics. And so I like to poke at them, and their blowhard sanctimoniousness. That's pretty much it.

 

I don't have a direct stake in the controversy with respect to the CS books because I don't buy uber high-grade Marvel SA keys. But I think more than nothing is going on here because: (1) As a comic book fan I hate to see very nice books have this flaw inflicted on them, and (2) this and similar techniques are apparently also being used on some mid-grade books that I do collect.

[lizards2]

'Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.'

The more I think about it, the more this statement annoys me. Even if true, what are we talking about, 50 years, 100 years ? CGC's comments were not well thought out. Everything, including the pics, were from this thread.

 

So, this current method of Costanza pressing accelerates time/aging of the books? Mimicking poor storage conditions?

 

I wonder what longer term and more extensive damage is done beyond just the shrinkage, staple tears/discoloration, shifting, etc. As if that was not enough.

[mysterio]

Oh, as for my take on things -- I think it's much ado about nothing, and -- some doom and gloomers (one particular one, particularly) annoy me with their histrionics. And so I like to poke at them, and their blowhard sanctimoniousness. That's pretty much it.

 

I don't have a direct stake in the controversy with respect to the CS books because I don't buy uber high-grade Marvel SA keys. But I think more than nothing is going on here because: (1) As a comic book fan I hate to see very nice books have this flaw inflicted on them, and (2) this and similar techniques are apparently also being used on some mid-grade books that I do collect.

 

While I'm responding to your post, because it was the latest one to make the claim I'm about to call out, I don't want you to take this like I'm taking a run at you personally.

 

EDIT: on rereading I noticed your point #2, so it looks like you and I do agree.

 

Lots of people have basically made the same claim that "I don't collect uber high grade books, therefore I don't need to worry about Costanza covers." I couldn't disagree more.

 

Lots of the books I have seen with RSR are mid-grade books, and I will repost the examples that I've previously posted below. I've also seen books posted on these boards in other threads that looked like they had RSR to me. If you are interested in purchasing mid-grade or lower grade books, and most of us who are in the market for uber-keys fall into this category, this is something we need to worry about. As long as CGC ignores shrinkage or RSR as a "manufacturing defect" or rewards it with grade bumps because it hides more defects than the downgrade the RSR/shrinkage damage gets, then people will keep ruining perfectly nice books because money.

 

Just because the only Costanza books that we have examples of NOW are uber-grade that doesn't mean it won't trickle down to other books that someone thinks can be "improved" by ruining them to get an almighty grade bump. That 4.0-6.0 Marvel or DC key you wanted may just get a spine realignment or shrunken up to turn it into a fantastically ugly 7.0 for another $2,000 on the asking price.

 

You think any dealers pressed every book in their inventory when pressing first started up? I'm guessing they reserved it for the keys and the books that would benefit the most in the bottom line. But now damn near every book that is worth a couple of bucks probably gets pressed before it gets graded. If RSR and Costanza shrinking is given what is basically a pass, expect it in lower grades soon. Especially since lower grades can accumulate more defects, and therefore new spines and/or shrinkage or staple tears won't ding them as much at those levels.

 

Do these look like uber grade books to you?

 

[Silver Surfer]

They look like a whole lot of Googam to me.

[Comicopolis]

This claim that shrinkage can occur naturally over time - where is the evidence for this?

[originalisbest]

Oh, as for my take on things -- I think it's much ado about nothing, and -- some doom and gloomers (one particular one, particularly) annoy me with their histrionics. And so I like to poke at them, and their blowhard sanctimoniousness. That's pretty much it.

 

I don't have a direct stake in the controversy with respect to the CS books because I don't buy uber high-grade Marvel SA keys. But I think more than nothing is going on here because: (1) As a comic book fan I hate to see very nice books have this flaw inflicted on them, and (2) this and similar techniques are apparently also being used on some mid-grade books that I do collect.

 

While I'm responding to your post, because it was the latest one to make the claim I'm about to call out, I don't want you to take this like I'm taking a run at you personally.

 

EDIT: on rereading I noticed your point #2, so it looks like you and I do agree.

 

Lots of people have basically made the same claim that "I don't collect uber high grade books, therefore I don't need to worry about Costanza covers." I couldn't disagree more.

 

Lots of the books I have seen with RSR are mid-grade books, and I will repost the examples that I've previously posted below. I've also seen books posted on these boards in other threads that looked like they had RSR to me. If you are interested in purchasing mid-grade or lower grade books, and most of us who are in the market for uber-keys fall into this category, this is something we need to worry about. As long as CGC ignores shrinkage or RSR as a "manufacturing defect" or rewards it with grade bumps because it hides more defects than the downgrade the RSR/shrinkage damage gets, then people will keep ruining perfectly nice books because money.

 

Just because the only Costanza books that we have examples of NOW are uber-grade that doesn't mean it won't trickle down to other books that someone thinks can be "improved" by ruining them to get an almighty grade bump. That 4.0-6.0 Marvel or DC key you wanted may just get a spine realignment or shrunken up to turn it into a fantastically ugly 7.0 for another $2,000 on the asking price.

 

You think any dealers pressed every book in their inventory when pressing first started up? I'm guessing they reserved it for the keys and the books that would benefit the most in the bottom line. But now damn near every book that is worth a couple of bucks probably gets pressed before it gets graded. If RSR and Costanza shrinking is given what is basically a pass, expect it in lower grades soon. Especially since lower grades can accumulate more defects, and therefore new spines and/or shrinkage or staple tears won't ding them as much at those levels.

 

Do these look like uber grade books to you?

 

 

They look like "practice" books to me, and likely, the work of the Wilson boys.

 

My hope is that the CGC will consider punishing RSR spine roll more harshly than they've said they will thus far. To me, it's not far off from trimming, with its intent. Shifting the spine to a state that it never originally had.

 

Matt posted when first discussed that they would look for the RSR technique, and it was mentioned since that they would downgrade for it (when they catch it) but I do think the punishment/hammer should be MUCH more severe, and disincentivize the practice. Green labeling any RSRs at ANY grade level would fit the bill nicely. Matt has said it is detectable, and different from a traditional spine roll.

 

This was all discussed thoroughly, although many, with a seething dislike of CGC (on CGC's hosted boards, which I always find amusing) have contributed to confusing and melding the issues of RSR and Shrinkage.

 

Shrinkage is a different animal, as that would appear to be an unintended side effect of a press made too severely/or perhaps, too often. Joey was trying to replicate the effect, and may still, if anyone gives a poop.

[joeypost]

So......

What does everyone think about CGC's comments regarding cover shrinking ? At least they acknowledge it.

 

CGC Statement

 

Posted on 10/8/2013

 

Cover shrinkage is a common consequence of improper pressing. The actual shrinkage will vary depending on several factors — but, without intervention, any shrinkage can lower the book's overall grade.

 

Cover shrinkage can occur from excessive humidity or multiple pressings, causing the cover to shrink side to side. Silver Age Marvels, particularly between 1960 and 1968, are most susceptible due to the poor quality of printing used at that time. The amount of shrinkage varies depending on several factors, such as what month the book is from, how it was stored during its life and the extent of pressing it received. Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.

 

Common shrinkage ranges from 1/64 inch to 1/16 inch, and excessive shrinkage up to 1/8 inch. Because it is difficult or impossible to always tell whether shrinkage occurred naturally or from pressing, CGC will treat excessive shrinkage similar to a manufacturing defect and downgrade accordingly. In some cases, shrinkage can be minimized or corrected with a light pressing.

 

This message comes across as they've known about these issues for years and years. I've never heard about it until this thread was created.

 

Someone else was mentioning (in this thread) that shrinkage has been known about for a long time and basically saying the same thing as CGC here, that there is natural shrinkage, too.

 

Can someone explain to me how it naturally shrinks? I'm sorry to trouble whoever takes the time to respond.

 

Oh, and lastly, how could a light pressing take care of cover shrinkage, as CGC states? How could it possibly?

 

Without getting into too many details, it can be done.

[originalisbest]

So......

What does everyone think about CGC's comments regarding cover shrinking ? At least they acknowledge it.

 

CGC Statement

 

Posted on 10/8/2013

 

Cover shrinkage is a common consequence of improper pressing. The actual shrinkage will vary depending on several factors — but, without intervention, any shrinkage can lower the book's overall grade.

 

Cover shrinkage can occur from excessive humidity or multiple pressings, causing the cover to shrink side to side. Silver Age Marvels, particularly between 1960 and 1968, are most susceptible due to the poor quality of printing used at that time. The amount of shrinkage varies depending on several factors, such as what month the book is from, how it was stored during its life and the extent of pressing it received. Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.

 

Common shrinkage ranges from 1/64 inch to 1/16 inch, and excessive shrinkage up to 1/8 inch. Because it is difficult or impossible to always tell whether shrinkage occurred naturally or from pressing, CGC will treat excessive shrinkage similar to a manufacturing defect and downgrade accordingly. In some cases, shrinkage can be minimized or corrected with a light pressing.

 

This message comes across as they've known about these issues for years and years. I've never heard about it until this thread was created.

 

Someone else was mentioning (in this thread) that shrinkage has been known about for a long time and basically saying the same thing as CGC here, that there is natural shrinkage, too.

 

Can someone explain to me how it naturally shrinks? I'm sorry to trouble whoever takes the time to respond.

 

Oh, and lastly, how could a light pressing take care of cover shrinkage, as CGC states? How could it possibly?

 

Without getting into too many details, it can be done.

 

Thanks Joey.

[namisgr]

So......

What does everyone think about CGC's comments regarding cover shrinking ? At least they acknowledge it.

 

CGC Statement

 

Posted on 10/8/2013

 

Cover shrinkage is a common consequence of improper pressing. The actual shrinkage will vary depending on several factors — but, without intervention, any shrinkage can lower the book's overall grade.

 

Cover shrinkage can occur from excessive humidity or multiple pressings, causing the cover to shrink side to side. Silver Age Marvels, particularly between 1960 and 1968, are most susceptible due to the poor quality of printing used at that time. The amount of shrinkage varies depending on several factors, such as what month the book is from, how it was stored during its life and the extent of pressing it received. Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.

 

Common shrinkage ranges from 1/64 inch to 1/16 inch, and excessive shrinkage up to 1/8 inch. Because it is difficult or impossible to always tell whether shrinkage occurred naturally or from pressing, CGC will treat excessive shrinkage similar to a manufacturing defect and downgrade accordingly. In some cases, shrinkage can be minimized or corrected with a light pressing.

 

This message comes across as they've known about these issues for years and years. I've never heard about it until this thread was created.

 

Someone else was mentioning (in this thread) that shrinkage has been known about for a long time and basically saying the same thing as CGC here, that there is natural shrinkage, too.

 

Can someone explain to me how it naturally shrinks? I'm sorry to trouble whoever takes the time to respond.

 

Oh, and lastly, how could a light pressing take care of cover shrinkage, as CGC states? How could it possibly?

 

Without getting into too many details, it can be done.

 

Thanks Joey.

 

Let's see this get fixed:

 

 

Or this:

 

[joeypost]

So......

What does everyone think about CGC's comments regarding cover shrinking ? At least they acknowledge it.

 

CGC Statement

 

Posted on 10/8/2013

 

Cover shrinkage is a common consequence of improper pressing. The actual shrinkage will vary depending on several factors — but, without intervention, any shrinkage can lower the book's overall grade.

 

Cover shrinkage can occur from excessive humidity or multiple pressings, causing the cover to shrink side to side. Silver Age Marvels, particularly between 1960 and 1968, are most susceptible due to the poor quality of printing used at that time. The amount of shrinkage varies depending on several factors, such as what month the book is from, how it was stored during its life and the extent of pressing it received. Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.

 

Common shrinkage ranges from 1/64 inch to 1/16 inch, and excessive shrinkage up to 1/8 inch. Because it is difficult or impossible to always tell whether shrinkage occurred naturally or from pressing, CGC will treat excessive shrinkage similar to a manufacturing defect and downgrade accordingly. In some cases, shrinkage can be minimized or corrected with a light pressing.

 

This message comes across as they've known about these issues for years and years. I've never heard about it until this thread was created.

 

Someone else was mentioning (in this thread) that shrinkage has been known about for a long time and basically saying the same thing as CGC here, that there is natural shrinkage, too.

 

Can someone explain to me how it naturally shrinks? I'm sorry to trouble whoever takes the time to respond.

 

Oh, and lastly, how could a light pressing take care of cover shrinkage, as CGC states? How could it possibly?

 

Without getting into too many details, it can be done.

 

Thanks Joey.

 

Let's see this get fixed:

 

 

Quoting Rodney Dangerfield "Piece of cake".

[originalisbest]

I guess it would depend on the books. If they were mine, I might be interested in seeing if the shrinkage could be improved on. No one ever said all books could. Some on this board seem incapable of seeing any issue in anything but absolutes.

[originalisbest]

So......

What does everyone think about CGC's comments regarding cover shrinking ? At least they acknowledge it.

 

CGC Statement

 

Posted on 10/8/2013

 

Cover shrinkage is a common consequence of improper pressing. The actual shrinkage will vary depending on several factors — but, without intervention, any shrinkage can lower the book's overall grade.

 

Cover shrinkage can occur from excessive humidity or multiple pressings, causing the cover to shrink side to side. Silver Age Marvels, particularly between 1960 and 1968, are most susceptible due to the poor quality of printing used at that time. The amount of shrinkage varies depending on several factors, such as what month the book is from, how it was stored during its life and the extent of pressing it received. Shrinkage can also occur naturally over time with no pressing involved.

 

Common shrinkage ranges from 1/64 inch to 1/16 inch, and excessive shrinkage up to 1/8 inch. Because it is difficult or impossible to always tell whether shrinkage occurred naturally or from pressing, CGC will treat excessive shrinkage similar to a manufacturing defect and downgrade accordingly. In some cases, shrinkage can be minimized or corrected with a light pressing.

 

This message comes across as they've known about these issues for years and years. I've never heard about it until this thread was created.

 

Someone else was mentioning (in this thread) that shrinkage has been known about for a long time and basically saying the same thing as CGC here, that there is natural shrinkage, too.

 

Can someone explain to me how it naturally shrinks? I'm sorry to trouble whoever takes the time to respond.

 

Oh, and lastly, how could a light pressing take care of cover shrinkage, as CGC states? How could it possibly?

 

Without getting into too many details, it can be done.

 

Thanks Joey.

 

Let's see this get fixed:

 

 

Quoting Rodney Dwngerfield "Piece of cake".

 

Joey hath spoken.

[Silver Surfer]

I'd like to see the TOS#40 get "fixed" but CGC already rewarded that piece of work with a higher grade so I guess everything is ok. Heaven forbid that we dare question anything on their chat board. Keep drinking the cool aid. (thumbs u

[Bomber-Bob]

Joey, realizing you can't get into details, trade secrets and all, I trust fixing a Constanza does not include a spine readjustment type of process ? This is getting insane. Comics are now widgets.

[originalisbest]

I'd like to see the TOS#40 get "fixed" but CGC already rewarded that piece of work with a higher grade so I guess everything is ok. Heaven forbid that we dare question anything on their chat board. Keep drinking the cool aid. (thumbs u

 

All you seem to drink of is the warmed, flat remnants of the bucket o' beer upon arriving late to happy hour. Question away, it's all you seem to do -- but amazingly (though not surprisingly) you don't seem to learn a damn thing either.

[Comicopolis]

If those 9.6's above get 'fixed' would they get a higher grade?

[Davenport]

Threads like these are highly educational.

Flat's where it's at. Obviously. And the best thing to ever happen with hyper-flat comics is back-lighting.

 

Embrace the Flat. Press 'em into pixels. Flat Forever.

 

[batman_fan]

If those 9.6's above get 'fixed' would they get a higher grade?

 

Only one way to find out, try it. I suspect we won't have to wait long before we see it done.

[Comicopolis]

Threads like these are highly educational.

Flat's where it's at. Obviously. And the best thing to ever happen with hyper-flat comics is back-lighting.

 

Embrace the Flat. Press 'em into pixels. Flat Forever.

 

 

It's the way to go.

 

No money to be made or lost.

 

No stressing over minuscule differences in grade.