Are there any ethics left in this hobby ?

[COI]

Hypothetical conversations are not in and of themselves unethical, and you can't glean any intent from that conversation, irrespective of whether the book sold or not.

 

I understand that some might find the conversation distasteful, but it can also be said that attempting to infer something about someone's character based on a vague two or three post exchange is also distasteful. The OP said his piece in that thread, and I think it would have been fair to at least allow them to respond to that post before starting an entirely different thread in general lamenting the loss of ethics in this hobby.

[Logan510]

Wasn't it an afterthought?

 

The book had already sold.

 

Yes, the book was sold. For that reason I felt comfortable starting this thread.

Sold or not, I felt the question was repugnant. I think it was a serious question, seeking advice for future situations.

What if it was just a thought, like, what if I bought a book that had been manipulated.

 

 

I think the sellers intention was pretty obvious. I don't know him from a hole in the ground, but it was pretty ballsy to ask that in his own sales thread.

[dupont2005]

After reading the thread I don't see it as a big deal. Maybe the question could have been brought to CG instead of his thread, but it was harmless. It's a valid question. People place such trust in CGC, and I'm not saying CGC hasn't earned people's trust, but there have been issues with resto detection in the past. What is their method of resto detection? Is it a secret?

[dupont2005]

With high dollar books it seems like it would be easy to find where the source of resto is coming from? Where did you get the book? Where did he get the book? And where did that guy get the book? Eventually someone is going to say they bought a lower grade book. Then you'll have narrowed it down to one or two people who while the book was in their possession it increased in grade. Then go to the next big money plod. Sooner or later the same guys name is going to pop up over and over again, and you have your man. And I don't think it's unreasonable when someone buys a four figure book raw and it comes back with undisclosed resto to ask their seller where they got it. I'd think their seller would want to look back too, and the seller before him. Wouldn't everyone like to know if they were passing along restored comics without knowing? And I have a feeling comics with undisclosed resto change hands enough times before finding a purple label slab for a few people to have unknowingly passed it on.

[HighStakesComics]

What is their method of resto detection? Is it a secret?

 

I imagine some combination of measuring and healthy debate. If you think they have a method unbeknownst to the rest of the universe, I think you probably are mistaken. Its not the best scan, but I believe it does need to be pointed out that in the original PGM post, the same guys that questioned the sharpness of the LRFC corner also severely overgraded the book. The science of this hobby consists of an awful lot of best guesses. Of one thing though I am certain. Someone got a helluva deal on one of the more key SA Marvels. After spending quite a bit of time looking at it I'm still 50/50 on whether the book looks trimmed. That corner is awfully sharp, but the rest of the book is well preserved too. It wouldn't be the first book to have one really sharp corner. My best guess would be CGC is erring on the side of caution. As for the intentions of any of the posters involved in this discussion on ethics:

 

Matthew 7:1

[tth2]

Unfortunately it is an effect of the current influx of speculators and investors that don't care about comic books as a medium of art and literature. This is only the current in thing to invest in.has been like this since comic collecting began

Fixed that for ya!

 

Desire to manipulate comics and defraud buyers has always been part of the hobby. Why do you think CGC came into existence in the first place, and why it`s always promoted its restoration check?

 

The only thing that`s changed is the dollars have gotten bigger.

[Warren Oates]

Some people need to calm down a bit. Nobody here has admitted they want to game the system and unplod books. My guess is virtually nobody wants to. And trust that the checks are in place to catch them here eventually. Again, I think it was some idle speculation after the book had sold.

 

C'mon man the seller didn't crack it open and try to swindle somebody. They could have done that and pawned it off on ebay, they did not, they swallowed the plod and sold it here.

[ttfitz]

Some people need to calm down a bit. Nobody here has admitted they want to game the system and unplod books. My guess is virtually nobody wants to. And trust that the checks are in place to catch them here eventually. Again, I think it was some idle speculation after the book had sold.

 

C'mon man the seller didn't crack it open and try to swindle somebody. They could have done that and pawned it off on ebay, they did not, they swallowed the plod and sold it here.

 

Particularly since the seller had said in the first post that he had gotten opinions on the PGM board that it was trimmed, and it "had come straight from Metro many years ago and my first impression in hand was that it was not, your never 100% sure, so I decided to pull it and CGC‘it to make sure before selling it. Glad I did."

 

So, rather than sell the book raw as unrestored, he submitted it to check, that's how I read that. And so it seems unlikely he's looking for some way to trick other folks.

 

[vaillant]

I think most people know SNiPER better than me (which actually do not know him at all, but he always looked like a honest seller to me), anyway my opinion is that he was just guessing based on the fact he is not convinced that the book has been trimmed, and not wondering if he could "deceive CGC".

 

If you follow the whole discussion since the beginning you’ll see I questioned whether the book might have been trimmed, as SNiPER wasn’t convinced it was.

 

If there was an absolutely secure way to determine minimal trimming it would be great, but I guess there is always a margin of doubt.

 

Wouldn’t it be ironic if a non-trimmed book looked "sharp but suspectful" and CGC (which is human after all) graded it as trimmed? I think you have to read SNiPER's hypotetical question in that sense.

Not to mention he submitted it PRECISELY to have it checked and sell with the most professional approach, so…

[vaillant]

Some people need to calm down a bit.

 

Agreed. And quite a lot, not just a bit.

[Boboset]

Some people need to calm down a bit. Nobody here has admitted they want to game the system and unplod books. My guess is virtually nobody wants to. And trust that the checks are in place to catch them here eventually. Again, I think it was some idle speculation after the book had sold.

 

C'mon man the seller didn't crack it open and try to swindle somebody. They could have done that and pawned it off on ebay, they did not, they swallowed the plod and sold it here.

 

Particularly since the seller had said in the first post that he had gotten opinions on the PGM board that it was trimmed, and it "had come straight from Metro many years ago and my first impression in hand was that it was not, your never 100% sure, so I decided to pull it and CGC‘it to make sure before selling it. Glad I did."

 

So, rather than sell the book raw as unrestored, he submitted it to check, that's how I read that. And so it seems unlikely he's looking for some way to trick other folks.

 

I don't know if "to trick" is the most appropriate term, but the sale was advertised with deceptive marketing. Not that the eventual buyer bought that end of it.

 

This is from the seller BEFORE the sale was completed.

 

Very close fit with "Vaillant" scan below, if they did trim the bottom it does not look like it was very much Who knows, I'm still not 100% convinced

 

He should not have questioned CGC's trimming detection since he doesn't know how to detect trimming. It's a trimmed book sitting in a PLOD holder that other seasoned vets previously red flagged as trimmed, that should convince you 100% that it's trimmed especially when you personally can't detect trimming. It's not a huge deal, but you shouldn't provide what I consider a false incentive.

 

The post sale discussion is all hypothetical situations with no intent to deceive. Nothing wrong with that other than it's in the wrong forum.

 

[dupont2005]

Yeah, he did absolutely the right thing. People got the wrong impression from a harmless comment. I don't think anyone is in the wrong, I think signals were crossed, but he did everything on the up and up.

[dupont2005]

Some people need to calm down a bit. Nobody here has admitted they want to game the system and unplod books. My guess is virtually nobody wants to. And trust that the checks are in place to catch them here eventually. Again, I think it was some idle speculation after the book had sold.

 

C'mon man the seller didn't crack it open and try to swindle somebody. They could have done that and pawned it off on ebay, they did not, they swallowed the plod and sold it here.

 

Particularly since the seller had said in the first post that he had gotten opinions on the PGM board that it was trimmed, and it "had come straight from Metro many years ago and my first impression in hand was that it was not, your never 100% sure, so I decided to pull it and CGC‘it to make sure before selling it. Glad I did."

 

So, rather than sell the book raw as unrestored, he submitted it to check, that's how I read that. And so it seems unlikely he's looking for some way to trick other folks.

 

I don't know if "to trick" is the most appropriate term, but the sale was advertised with deceptive marketing. Not that the eventual buyer bought that end of it.

 

This is from the seller BEFORE the sale was completed.

 

Very close fit with "Vaillant" scan below, if they did trim the bottom it does not look like it was very much Who knows, I'm still not 100% convinced

 

He should not have questioned CGC's trimming detection since he doesn't know how to detect trimming. That suggests a possible blue label on a resub. It's a trimmed book sitting in a PLOD holder that other seasoned vets previously red flagged as trimmed, that should convince you 100% that it's trimmed especially when you personally can't detect trimming.

 

The post sale discussion is all hypothetical situations with no intent to deceive. Nothing wrong with that other than it's in the wrong forum.

It wasn't an auction, speculating on the quality of CGC resto detection wasn't going to make him richer, and even at a plod label, he sold it at a good price. It was going to sell regardless, I don't see this as a sales gimmick.

 

And let's not forget, CGC has changed its mind on a book being restored once or twice in the past, and that's just one book. And I believe there was a little turnover in the resto detection department as of late. Maybe he shouldn't have speculated in that thread, but the speculation is valid. He doesn't think it's trimmed, CGC does, he priced it according to CGC's decision.

[dupont2005]

I like that this board is full of good people looking out for each other and collectively frowning on fraudulent behavior, but this is one instance where I think a person is being thrown under the bus without deserving it. I'd hate for a thinking out loud type comment I make on a thread somewhere cause a bunch of people to consider me untrustworthy after I've done everything I could to make absolutely sure I was disclosing everything before listing something for sale at a great price.

[Boboset]

Some people need to calm down a bit. Nobody here has admitted they want to game the system and unplod books. My guess is virtually nobody wants to. And trust that the checks are in place to catch them here eventually. Again, I think it was some idle speculation after the book had sold.

 

C'mon man the seller didn't crack it open and try to swindle somebody. They could have done that and pawned it off on ebay, they did not, they swallowed the plod and sold it here.

 

Particularly since the seller had said in the first post that he had gotten opinions on the PGM board that it was trimmed, and it "had come straight from Metro many years ago and my first impression in hand was that it was not, your never 100% sure, so I decided to pull it and CGC‘it to make sure before selling it. Glad I did."

 

So, rather than sell the book raw as unrestored, he submitted it to check, that's how I read that. And so it seems unlikely he's looking for some way to trick other folks.

 

I don't know if "to trick" is the most appropriate term, but the sale was advertised with deceptive marketing. Not that the eventual buyer bought that end of it.

 

This is from the seller BEFORE the sale was completed.

 

Very close fit with "Vaillant" scan below, if they did trim the bottom it does not look like it was very much Who knows, I'm still not 100% convinced

 

He should not have questioned CGC's trimming detection since he doesn't know how to detect trimming. That suggests a possible blue label on a resub. It's a trimmed book sitting in a PLOD holder that other seasoned vets previously red flagged as trimmed, that should convince you 100% that it's trimmed especially when you personally can't detect trimming.

 

The post sale discussion is all hypothetical situations with no intent to deceive. Nothing wrong with that other than it's in the wrong forum.

It wasn't an auction, speculating on the quality of CGC resto detection wasn't going to make him richer, and even at a plod label, he sold it at a good price. It was going to sell regardless, I don't see this as a sales gimmick.

 

And let's not forget, CGC has changed its mind on a book being restored once or twice in the past, and that's just one book. And I believe there was a little turnover in the resto detection department as of late. Maybe he shouldn't have speculated in that thread, but the speculation is valid. He doesn't think it's trimmed, CGC does, he priced it according to CGC's decision.

 

I think it was a sales gimmick. Maybe it wasn't intended as such, but if you doubt the trimmed distinct you're suggesting it isn't trimmed. It was a good price, however, PLODs move slowly and everyone knows that.

 

And you're right, that was just one book. One book out of countless other accurately detected trimmed books. I'm guessing the seller read the JIM83 saga and that's what directly influenced the PLOD doubt in this case. You can't entertain the possibility of a straight blue label sub with only that as supporting evidence.

[dupont2005]

More than one book has been in one color label and upon resubmission been in another color label. One book just did it multiple times.

[tth2]

More than one book has been in one color label and upon resubmission been in another color label. One book just did it multiple times.

Sure fills you with confidence over CGC, doesn`t it?

[Boboset]

More than one book has been in one color label and upon resubmission been in another color label. One book just did it multiple times.

 

It's been more than the JIM83, you're right. That's still not enough evidence to throw a blanket blue label possibility on every book with minor trimming when you don't know how to detect trimming. I view that similarly to someone who doesn't know how to grade selling every single graded book advertised with resub potential for grade/pq bump.

 

It's a selling point I simply can't endorse, a minor issue. I'm not trying to throw him under the bus or label his as untrustworthy.

 

[jimjum12]

When a book is suspected of minor trimming (I'm not talking about the obvious "chop shop" examples), the only person who can be 100% certain is the one who trimmed it. It's not an ethical issue if someone disagrees with CGC's assessment. Judging from the scans provided..... I would have my doubts also.... but one would really have to see the book in hand for an honest opinion. Atlas/Marvel in the 50's to early 60's probably had the worst production values in the industry.... so "looks" can be deceiving. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

[gaz973]

When a book is suspected of minor trimming (I'm not talking about the obvious "chop shop" examples), the only person who can be 100% certain is the one who trimmed it. It's not an ethical issue if someone disagrees with CGC's assessment. Judging from the scans provided..... I would have my doubts also.... but one would really have to see the book in hand for an honest opinion. Atlas/Marvel in the 50's to early 60's probably had the worst production values in the industry.... so "looks" can be deceiving. GOD BLESS...

 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus) (thumbs u

That isn't what was happening in this case though.

 

The seller was debating whether trimming could be "hidden" from CGC.