XXXXX

[Boboset]

Storypapers,

 

You're conveniently blurring the lines on most members stance regarding the difference between CGC and PGX and your decision to go with PGX. You're focusing on the grading difference while most everyone is focusing on the possible restoration. Nobody is upset or surprised that PGX gave the book a 6.5. We know they're terrible at grading, overgrading is expected with PGX.

 

What's also expected of PGX is terrible restoration detection. When everyone agreed that BOTH staples looked at least suspicious, you subbed the book to PGX and not CGC. There are experts in the field right here, telling you that this book clearly deserves quality restoration detection because of the red flags seen in both staples.

 

You don't care that the PGX label will lure collectors into paying a premium for false assurances. You care about obtaining the highest resale value possible when you do decide to sell it.

 

Many people would do exactly as storypapers did.

Unfortunately.

[Iceman399]

Storypapers,

 

You're conveniently blurring the lines on most members stance regarding the difference between CGC and PGX and your decision to go with PGX. You're focusing on the grading difference while most everyone is focusing on the possible restoration. Nobody is upset or surprised that PGX gave the book a 6.5. We know they're terrible at grading, overgrading is expected with PGX.

 

What's also expected of PGX is terrible restoration detection. When everyone agreed that BOTH staples looked at least suspicious, you subbed the book to PGX and not CGC. There are experts in the field right here, telling you that this book clearly deserves quality restoration detection because of the red flags seen in both staples.

 

You don't care that the PGX label will lure collectors into paying a premium for false assurances. You care about obtaining the highest resale value possible when you do decide to sell it.

 

Many people would do exactly as storypapers did.

 

I thought only coin dealers were shady

[thirdgreenham]

Storypapers,

 

You're conveniently blurring the lines on most members stance regarding the difference between CGC and PGX and your decision to go with PGX. You're focusing on the grading difference while most everyone is focusing on the possible restoration. Nobody is upset or surprised that PGX gave the book a 6.5. We know they're terrible at grading, overgrading is expected with PGX.

 

What's also expected of PGX is terrible restoration detection. When everyone agreed that BOTH staples looked at least suspicious, you subbed the book to PGX and not CGC. There are experts in the field right here, telling you that this book clearly deserves quality restoration detection because of the red flags seen in both staples.

 

You don't care that the PGX label will lure collectors into paying a premium for false assurances. You care about obtaining the highest resale value possible when you do decide to sell it.

 

Many people would do exactly as storypapers did.

 

I thought only coin dealers were shady

 

There's shadiness in every market.

[storypapers]

Thank you Mr. ThirdGreenham

 

Finally someone willing to be honest.

 

Anyone who wants me to buy all their 3.5 keys with heavy spine roll...lmk

 

I can't believe some are back to the restored bit again. There was nothing restored here....nothing!

 

CGC gets plenty wrong too. Many would agree I'm sure. Often they are too strict.

That is why, in part, CVA was created to point out CGC lack of grading an entire book rather than focusing on minutia and on overall appearance etc.

 

OK, but here everyone here is a grading expert! Nice to know.

 

Anyway...I tire of all this BS.

 

I gave you all the facts. 'Nuff said....Thread over.....................

 

PS No one as far as I know thought of grading comics like coins. That is why Overstreet and Gary Carter recognized me at the time for the article I did for CBM.

 

 

 

 

 

I bye

[Red84]

Ok. This whole thing is ridiculous. You claim to be an expert grader, an overstreet advisor, a sotheby's advisor, and all around amazing source of comic knowledge, yet YOU POSTED POORLY TAKEN PHOTOS OF A BOOK AND ASKED US TO GRADE IT FOR YOU!!! You're the expert grader, why do you need us?!? You dislike cgc? It's people like you that make cgc a necessity so we can actually trust the books we buy are what we think they are. 3rd party grading never would be have been a necessity if people weren't shady.

 

Please, go write another book to educate all of us. Clearly, we all need your help.

 

I do want to congratulate you on effectively making it impossible for yourself to sell books on here going forward. That deserves a

[Boboset]

Thank you Mr. ThirdGreenham

 

Finally someone willing to be honest.

 

 

 

You thought that was a compliment?

[DR.X]

Ok. This whole thing is ridiculous. You claim to be an expert grader, an overstreet advisor, a sotheby's advisor, and all around amazing source of comic knowledge, yet YOU POSTED POORLY TAKEN PHOTOS OF A BOOK AND ASKED US TO GRADE IT FOR YOU!!! You're the expert grader, why do you need us?!? You dislike cgc? It's people like you that make cgc a necessity so we can actually trust the books we buy are what we think they are. 3rd party grading never would be have been a necessity if people weren't shady.

 

Please, go write another book to educate all of us. Clearly, we all need your help.

 

I do want to congratulate you on effectively making it impossible for yourself to sell books on here going forward. That deserves a

 

 

And yet a person with his alledged knowledge sends his key book to a company with know dishonesty and shady dealings. And that's putting it mildly.

 

If this book went to CGC or Borock I have a feeling the lable would be a little different in a few ways. But no sense in flogging a dead horse here, it don't matter to the OP.

[DR.X]

Thank you Mr. ThirdGreenham

 

Finally someone willing to be honest.

 

 

 

You thought that was a compliment?

 

[The-Collector]

If that book got a 6.0 from anyone, that is a very generous grade. With all the chipping and the spine roll, it will not present well for the grade, regardless of what that grade actually is, or who graded it.

 

If you sent it to PGX you only did so because you knew they would give it a more lenient grade than CGC and would be more loosey-goosey with the resto check. Either way, it's your book and you may have it graded by whomever you choose.

 

Just understand that the market at large will usually hit a PGX book at about 20-30% off a CGC book in the same grade. Whether that's because most everyone feels PGX is more generous with their grading and factoring in a two point + grade hit, or people take the PGX grade and resto check with a grain of salt is unclear. I have heard multiple collectors say however that they won't pay more for a PGX book, than they would for the same book raw. So there's that too. Either way, I think you would be "lucky" to get a 4.5 CGC price for that "6.0" PGX book.

 

Good luck with it.

 

 

-J.

 

Thanks Jay....I appreciate the well wishes and I am happy to see so many having a good time with this thread. Some very funny stuff!

Although I can't help thinking I am getting the last laugh here.

Sigs wants to know what else was done with the book. Someone else says 3 day turn around too quick etc.

Here are the final facts....lets see if some here will now say, what you have so nicely stated and leave it at that.

Yes, ...the book was pressed. Duh! Obvious. The back pages were horribly fanned with a very severe spine roll. There was no way, in good conscience the book could be left that way.

How do I know it was not restored earlier? It was originally a CGC blue label.

Were the staples ever removed? No...not by me. I simply re-attached the bottom staple....was not hard to do and did not require removal.

How 3 days? I sent express mail, 1 day service. I called two days after mailing and they said they would be grading that day. I asked when done could they send an image of the book, they did...that is how I know the grade.

Why not CGC? Well after all the horrors you were giving me about restoration just for reattaching a staple (since pressing is OK and no one ever respond to my question...why that is OK...yet reattaching is not)...I figured, perhaps I should play it safe. So it was some of you that drove me elsewhere.

As far as getting less for PGX..I agree...20% likely...that said...the grade is probably .5 to 1 grade higher which should make up for that. I'll admit that.

I am happy to have the book encapsulated....no rush to sell as I want a Hulk for my own collection. If I sell, I would be looking to buy another anyway ....which is what I try to do, and have done a number of times, on all my key issues. Always trying to increase either the grade or preferred appearance.

 

So there you have it..full disclosure.

Wish you all the best with your collections.

Now lets see if this will satisfy the masses...somehow I doubt it.....

 

So you have purposefully chosen a grading company that you know is most likely to overlook restoration that is widely frowned upon and restoration that could be detected and noted by another grading company.

 

[Jaydogrules]

Guys, as frustrating and provocative as you may find some of storypaper's actions with this book and his posts in this thread we do have to remember that it is his book and he an do whatever with it as he pleases, and if he decides to sell it, like it or not, someone will gladly buy it even in a PGX holder. He certainly will not get top dollar but he will probably clear a tidy sum. This is a hulk 1 after all. I do believe that he posted this book in this thread with special attention paid towards the staples because he wanted to test the board's collective reaction to what he had done to the them-- maybe even to see if anyone one would notice anything. He did get somewhat defensive, but hey most people get a little emotional when it comes to money, and I highly doubt he is planning on losing any on this book.

 

Storypapers- the guys are getting a little testy with you because, at least in the beginning of this thread, they were all giving you their honest opinions, without any ulterior motives and with their hearts in the right places and you did kind of sh*t on them when you got overly defensive. Plus there are a lot of comic book purists on here who just hate to see a book of that caliber mucked around with like that, and you have dealers with a high ethical threshold who believe in integrity before money, and some sensitive buyers who have been burned on restored books that were not disclosed as such. All of this adds up to a 35 page + thread for a simple PGM request. It's always unfortunate when people start getting too personal on here or nit picking minor typos or grammatical errors in posts. I have not been here long but I have found most all of the posters on here to be good, insightful, we'll spoken people, deserving of respect, even if I should happen to disagree with them from time to time. The book is what it is at this point, and I have no doubt it will be offered for sale and bought by someone. Obviously not by anyone here, but someone will buy it. But it probably really is time to put this thread to bed.

 

-J.

 

 

[trmoore54]

Storypapers,

 

You're conveniently blurring the lines on most members stance regarding the difference between CGC and PGX and your decision to go with PGX. You're focusing on the grading difference while most everyone is focusing on the possible restoration. Nobody is upset or surprised that PGX gave the book a 6.5. We know they're terrible at grading, overgrading is expected with PGX.

 

What's also expected of PGX is terrible restoration detection. When everyone agreed that BOTH staples looked at least suspicious, you subbed the book to PGX and not CGC. There are experts in the field right here, telling you that this book clearly deserves quality restoration detection because of the red flags seen in both staples.

 

You don't care that the PGX label will lure collectors into paying a premium for false assurances. You care about obtaining the highest resale value possible when you do decide to sell it.

 

Many people would do exactly as storypapers did.

Unfortunately.

 

Not me...I hope to sleep peacefully in my grave...

PGX sucks.

I am not a whore to get maximum value from comic resales...fortunately. I realize some may not be in the same situation. Although I would hopefully stop short of defrauding someone else to buy milk for my starving children...

[storypapers]

Jay

 

Thanks again for your efforts.

 

But come on.

These people do not address what I've stated time and again. They, not me have been the attackers. Me, yes, not by choice having to defend my position.

 

I have bent over backward to have people understand my position which is most certainly valid and some here even agree.

 

To summarize, simply put a reattached staple should not be considered restoration.

Pressing should be and isn't. Because someone decided pressing is OK, most here jump on board. So that should not be at issue.

 

And,

 

First of all, a replaced staple, as far as I have seen, gets a Green label...not a purple.

 

So STOP with the restoration! This book was not restored. And whether you believe it or not, the staples were not removed and the top one not touch.

 

Remember this book had bad spine roll and was way off on the back cover.

 

PGX does rate restoration. They did not see any restoration for good reason...there is none!

CGC might well have seen the same thing, but again, some here are so sure of themselves with regard to what CGC would or would not do that I decided not to chance even a Green label.

 

Joey and others, press and do a number of minor adjustments, including un-restore when possible and no doubt you are fine with that although not in its settled, "natural" state. As one person said here, he is happy with is 3.5 spine roll. Well, that was not natural to the book to start with and no doubt the reason why pressing back to or in a better position is accepted.

 

And a few of those so called "honest" opinions were not. One contacted me off line to buy at a far lower value than this book would be even in 3.5; I am fine with that, but lets no pretend everyone here is in the same unbiased position as a paid third part grader.

Many buy or want to by and sell here and realize quite often after the buddy trial the book goes up for sale.

 

Others gave their view and I appreciated it. It was only when I asked why one person was lower than the rest that things started getting out of hand.

 

I only asked why and was given hell for it; talk of attacking ones integrity and so on.

Yet, all here were free to attack me.

 

I appreciate Jay and even Blaze for at least trying to understand my position. I was never trying to hide anything.

I did not want to give you even more than you needed to know so that those already paranoid would become even more so.

 

I simply ask for a grade on what was shown. The pictures were not grainy as one person claimed later and that was never brought into question.

 

Yet, unlike any third party grading service, people here wanted history and even created there own scenarios. Again, I was not selling the book and stated so from the beginning.

 

Finally I never attacked anyones credibility as was done to me over and over and over again.

I tried for all these long pages, to give perspective yet it never is enough.

 

The book is safe and preserved. And the best outcome for me, the owner, was confirmed with the 6.0 grade.

 

When I look to sell..the buyer will be told it was pressed and bottom staple re-attached.

They will not care. What they will have to decide is it worth the price I put on it given what they see in front of them.

 

 

Good night all....I wish I could say it has been fun.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[oakman29]

I don't give a rats....

[RockMyAmadeus]

 

PS No one as far as I know thought of grading comics like coins. That is why Overstreet and Gary Carter recognized me at the time for the article I did for CBM.

 

You are quite wrong. It matters not who recognized you, the fact is, Keith Contarino and others were talking about grading comics in slabs almost as soon as slabbing coins appeared (1986-1987.)

 

And it's in print, long before CBM existed.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Thank you Mr. ThirdGreenham

 

Finally someone willing to be honest.

 

Everyone else in this thread was lying? No, everyone is this thread was telling you the truth, which you did not want to hear.

 

Anyone who wants me to buy all their 3.5 keys with heavy spine roll...lmk

 

Strawman. No one here said the book was graded 3.5 at CGC, because it didn't go to CGC. The only ones who would know what CGC graded it, if they graded it at all, are the ones who knew about it while it was in a slab...if it ever was.

 

I can't believe some are back to the restored bit again. There was nothing restored here....nothing!

 

Strawman. No one said it was. Everyone said it looked suspicious.

 

CGC gets plenty wrong too. Many would agree I'm sure. Often they are too strict.

That is why, in part, CVA was created to point out CGC lack of grading an entire book rather than focusing on minutia and on overall appearance etc.

 

Strawman. No one said CGC doesn't get it wrong. That CGC gets it wrong does not therefore validate PGX.

 

\OK, but here everyone here is a grading expert! Nice to know.

 

Strawman. No one said everyone here was a grading expert. There are, however, expert graders here, and people who can run circles around PGX.

 

Anyway...I tire of all this BS.

 

Finally, the truth, though not as you intend it.

 

I gave you all the facts. 'Nuff said....Thread over.....................

 

You gave many of the facts, but not all of them.

I bye

 

Bye!

[RockMyAmadeus]

Jay

 

Thanks again for your efforts.

 

{snip}

 

Good night all....I wish I could say it has been fun.

 

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

 

[MR SigS]

Thanks Mrs Sigs

 

So answer the question..which would you rather have, the 3.5 CGC left alone or 6.0 PGX?

 

The 3.5 CGC left alone.

This increases my chances of, if I so choose, having someone who knows what they're doing reattach the staple and help the book get a 2 or 3 grade bump, 4.0-5.0 CGC Blue.

[storypapers]

Good point Mr. SigS

 

Perhaps I should have sent the book to Joey. Then the staple would not have been an issue.

 

I keep asking but no one directly wants to admit that reattaching a staple is less "restoration" then pressing a book.

 

In fact, both should not be restoration rather some sort of repair which is less frowned upon now, as it should be.

 

CGC and others got it wrong! That is why they have modified their way of grading restored and repaired items. Sorry, just the facts.

 

If I did not get all this negative feedback on staples I probably would have sent to CGC and been happy with a 4.5 as I doubt it would have come restored. Makes no sense! But why take the chance...when the charge and the wait is much, much longer.

Also restoration is decided upon on a sliding scale. DO YOU REALLY THINK A STAPLE ATTACHMENT SHOULD BE RESTORATION?

I laughed when I saw a Det. 27 with "slight color" touch up! If it had been some minor book it would have come back with a purple. The decision by the graders saved the guy who owned it and the dealer (who probably sent it in) a few $100K!

 

Can anyone explain here why Mr. B left the company he started only to start another one? Do you think he sees some issues with the company he founded?

 

Perhaps he knows something you all do not know?

 

I am not saying they are bad...but come on, business is business and when such a business runs on whims, moods, an approximates not definitives a lot of faults or pluses may be counted or not counted against a book. So today the book is a 4.5 with light touch up, tomorrow it may be a 4.0 blue label. There are no real right and wrongs. They are Guides. What PGX may think not restoration may be a matter of degree. Why should the owner be hammered when the touch up is minor or say one tear was sealed with glue rather than tape! Again, this is crazy!

 

If I use white archival tape to seal a tear it would probably come back restored. If glue is used same thing, be it archival or not. But good ole scoth tape which will eventually eat into the paper if fine...NOT RESTORED!

 

ALSO find a similar staple from a similar title...remove the rusted staple, replace with a good one...ooopss RESTORED! Or maybe a Green! So, good for the book but No can do! Does any of this make sense to you?!!

 

Finally PGX does not charge a % of the value for a book. Some may think this a FAR more ethical way to treat the customer. Perhaps someone here can explain why the owner of a book must be charge so much for a more valuable book when the service is exactly the same? Just asking.

 

***

 

Oh, and about the grading as coins. I never wanted to encapsulate. WE still do not know what long term, internment will do to the pages...do we?

 

What I proposed and Mr. Overstreet and Carter seem to like was a way to grade using the similar MS gradings as used with coins. I did not want them sealed although put in a plastic case along with an sharp image of both covers and a list of discerning facts which could have been compared to the original when selling kept on file and one for the owner. If it still looked the same, then it would retain the given grade for buyer and seller to debate. It was more of an aid then a definitive as few people could conceive of a three dimensional item sealed away.

 

I guess I found another

 

 

 

 

[MR SigS]

If I did not get all this negative feedback on staples I probably would have sent to CGC and been happy with a 4.5

 

Please tell your comic book that I apologize.

That poor, poor Hulk #1...

[Red84]

What are you talking about? You seem to be having a conversation with yourself.

 

Your weird accusations make no sense. Mr B, left because be was a grader, not an owner. As owner of his new company he will make more money and be in charge. There's no nefarious circumstances and your implications are just plain silly.

 

What does people's responses to you on here have to do with you getting the book graded by cgc? Our opinions are just that, ours, not cgc's. in fact there are many people on this board that don't even like graded comics.

 

As far as turnaround time compared to PGX. Your book would be in the highest tier so you'd have had your book back in less than a week.

 

Regarding charging a percentage I assume that's because there is far more financial risk in handling a valuable comic.

 

You get what you pay for and you got a plastic slab with a questionable piece of paper with a number on it.