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FF 67 or Thor 165?

Started by JollyComics,

173 posts in this topic

prez

prez

Posted
Posted
After the movie Thor seems to have pushed aside FF

 

After people on this board talked it up you mean

 

CBT ... You know I love ya but you seem especially sharp in this thread. Everyone here knows books are hyped, but CGC acknowledges Thor 165 as being the "1st full appearance." I have both Thor 165 and FF67, so I'm not taking sides. IMHO I think everyone should own both and MP1. I believe Thor 165 is/has been talked up for good reason, not just hype.

 

You have to own all three if you are a warlock fan :cloud9:

 

I'm guessing that one of the reason why Thor 165 has been talked up recently is because of the quick buck that most people could make as this book has been flying under the radar for so many years.

 

They could have talked this up back in the early 90's, peak of warlock's popularity? I guess no internet?? Marvel could have acknowledged this in their trading cards at least?

 

There's nothing wrong in making some cash in comics, especially since sought after keys can fetch you a lot of scratch. But we should at least admit to ourselves that there is some form of "hyping" going on here.

 

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Unca Ben

Unca Ben

Posted
Posted
Study the layouts on last page of FF67: it seems like Kirby ran out of room and finished the illustrations with the room he had left on the last half of the page. Him/Warlock on two relatively small panels; the quick death of his creators, all in the last couple of small panels on the page. Wouldn't Kirby have preferred to have another page to make a more dramatic illustration of that classic statement of the "child being the father of the man"? Maybe Him's appearance in FF67 is relegated to "cameo" because of space limitations? In substance, isn't FF67 really the first full appearance of Him, but in form, deemed a "cameo"?

 

Latest on the poll is interesting: 54% say Thor 165; 46% say FF67. Gap is closing.

 

In the article previously linked, Kirby may have intended for the story to continue beyond issue 67, according to Mark Evanier. Kirby was disappointed with the changes Stan made in the first part of the story, so he wrapped it up in one issue.

 

A Failure to Communicate

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FineCollector

FineCollector

Posted
Posted
They could have talked this up back in the early 90's, peak of warlock's popularity? I guess no internet?? Marvel could have acknowledged this in their trading cards at least?

 

Back then, Thor 165 wasn't a key, just another chapter in the story, same as the Premieres. I remember more people looking for the Hulk issues than these guys. There were enough people seeking out books to read that they didn't have to fabricate keys...

 

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Gatsby77

Gatsby77

Posted
Posted
Back then, Thor 165 wasn't a key, just another chapter in the story, same as the Premieres.

 

Exactly. FF 66/67 was unquestionably the first appearance but, as Keith Contario pointed out in one of his Overstreet Update market reports, Marvel Premiere 1 was the most important book, as it's when Him became Warlock and (more importantly) received the Soul Gem, the source of his powers.

 

Thor 165-166 were just Him appearances, definitely 2nd fiddle to the FF books.

 

I stand by Marvel Premiere 1 as the first appearance of Warlock. The prior books are, at best, prototypes in the vein of the Sgt. Rock prototype issues prior to OAAW 83.

 

And no...I have no financial stake, as I owned all of these books & sold them all within the last six months.

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prez

prez

Posted
Posted
Back then, Thor 165 wasn't a key, just another chapter in the story, same as the Premieres.

 

Exactly. FF 66/67 was unquestionably the first appearance but, as Keith Contario pointed out in one of his Overstreet Update market reports, Marvel Premiere 1 was the most important book, as it's when Him became Warlock and (more importantly) received the Soul Gem, the source of his powers.

 

Thor 165-166 were just Him appearances, definitely 2nd fiddle to the FF books.

 

I stand by Marvel Premiere 1 as the first appearance of Warlock. The prior books are, at best, prototypes in the vein of the Sgt. Rock prototype issues prior to OAAW 83.

 

And no...I have no financial stake, as I owned all of these books & sold them all within the last six months.

 

No one's arguing MP1 is the 1st warlock - because it is. The first appearance of the character who later becomes warlock (Him) is FF67. Nuff said

 

 

 

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Dr. Balls

Dr. Balls

Posted
Posted
Back then, Thor 165 wasn't a key, just another chapter in the story, same as the Premieres.

 

Exactly. FF 66/67 was unquestionably the first appearance but, as Keith Contario pointed out in one of his Overstreet Update market reports, Marvel Premiere 1 was the most important book, as it's when Him became Warlock and (more importantly) received the Soul Gem, the source of his powers.

 

Thor 165-166 were just Him appearances, definitely 2nd fiddle to the FF books.

 

I stand by Marvel Premiere 1 as the first appearance of Warlock. The prior books are, at best, prototypes in the vein of the Sgt. Rock prototype issues prior to OAAW 83.

 

And no...I have no financial stake, as I owned all of these books & sold them all within the last six months.

 

No one's arguing MP1 is the 1st warlock - because it is. The first appearance of the character who later becomes warlock (Him) is FF67. Nuff said

 

 

 

If only people and the price guides referred to it as that.

 

Still no MP #1 in the poll. :baiting:

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Illustrious

Illustrious

Posted
Posted
Back then, Thor 165 wasn't a key, just another chapter in the story, same as the Premieres.

 

Exactly. FF 66/67 was unquestionably the first appearance but, as Keith Contario pointed out in one of his Overstreet Update market reports, Marvel Premiere 1 was the most important book, as it's when Him became Warlock and (more importantly) received the Soul Gem, the source of his powers.

 

Thor 165-166 were just Him appearances, definitely 2nd fiddle to the FF books.

 

I stand by Marvel Premiere 1 as the first appearance of Warlock. The prior books are, at best, prototypes in the vein of the Sgt. Rock prototype issues prior to OAAW 83.

 

And no...I have no financial stake, as I owned all of these books & sold them all within the last six months.

 

No one's arguing MP1 is the 1st warlock - because it is. The first appearance of the character who later becomes warlock (Him) is FF67. Nuff said

 

 

 

If only people and the price guides referred to it as that.

 

Still no MP #1 in the poll. :baiting:

 

It's still not that simple. FF #67 is small enough of an appearance to be a cameo, and Thor #165 is the first full appearance (of HIM). I collect the first full appearances, therefore I'd rather have Hulk #181 over #180, ASM #300 over #299, and Thor #165 over over FF #67. The market seems to agree with that line of thinking.

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topofthetotem

topofthetotem

Posted
Posted

Anybody read FF #48? The whole book is talking about the coming of Big G but he doesn't actually show up till the last page.

 

Same thing with Him/Warlock, FF #67 is the first appearance and no amount of fanboy reexamination will change that. Whether Thor #165 or MP #1 are more valuable or desirable doesn't change that fact!

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VintageComics

VintageComics

Posted
Posted
While it's interesting but not $urpri$ing that Thor 165 is getting more attention around here because of its higher resale value, I find FF 67 the more compelling book.

 

FF 67 was the last time Kirby created a new major character in his run on the FF (with the exception of Annihilus). According to comic historians, FF 67 may have been a good part of the tipping point of the Kirby / Lee rift as reported in The Jack Kirby Collector series of installments, A Failure to Communicate .

 

I find FF 67 compelling in the sense that the story I read and loved as a kid was not the story Jack intended. Re-reading FF 66 & 67 as an adult, with the background knowledge of those issues' significance to the history of the Lee / Kirby collaboration, makes the reading even more interesting.

 

I mean, if Jack completely had his way, we might be talking about "Cocoon-Man" and who knows what, instead of "Him" and "Adam Warlock". :D

(We’d also be treated to a better story).

 

The historical significance, the story as it was printed, plus the gorgeous Sinnott embellishment make FF 67 a better issue than Thor 165, in my opinion.

 

All things being equal I would place a higher value on FF 67 more than Thor 165. This is likely one of the many reasons why I make a better collector than I would a dealer, somewhat to my dismay.

 

When you type, I listen.

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gaz973

gaz973

Posted
Posted

Just because I argue that FF # 67 is a cameo and Thor # 165 is the first full appearance doesn't mean that I am arguing that Thor should be " the money book", I actually don't care less which one ends up being the most valuable. People should just buy whichever one they want most based on whatever matters most to them. Personally, I'd say buy them all.

 

My interest in the conversation is how they are classified and my opinion is about the same as CGC's. Like I posted earlier, IMHO they should be

 

FF # 67 = first appearance of Him (cameo)

 

Thor # 165 = first full appearance of Him

 

Marvel Premiere # 1 = Him becomes Adam Warlock

 

Based on that, people can buy or value them as they wish.

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Juswuh

Juswuh

Posted
Posted

How FF 67 can be called a "cameo" when the character appears on the cover, has several pages of dialogue (including a full page panel), and is talked about throughout the story is beyond me. The fact that he doesn't emerge from the cocoon till the last page is irrelevant.

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namisgr

namisgr

Posted
Posted
How FF 67 can be called a "cameo" when the character appears on the cover, has several pages of dialogue (including a full page panel), and is talked about throughout the story is beyond me. The fact that he doesn't emerge from the cocoon till the last page is irrelevant.

 

+1

 

But it still isn't a Warlock appearance. Marvel Premiere #1 and Strange Tales #178 have both been under-appreciated for too long.

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