FF 67 or Thor 165?

[HighStakesComics]

The 165's certainly move much faster on the 'Bay.

[Unca Ben]

While it's interesting but not $urpri$ing that Thor 165 is getting more attention around here because of its higher resale value, I find FF 67 the more compelling book.

 

FF 67 was the last time Kirby created a new major character in his run on the FF (with the exception of Annihilus). According to comic historians, FF 67 may have been a good part of the tipping point of the Kirby / Lee rift as reported in The Jack Kirby Collector series of installments, A Failure to Communicate .

 

I find FF 67 compelling in the sense that the story I read and loved as a kid was not the story Jack intended. Re-reading FF 66 & 67 as an adult, with the background knowledge of those issues' significance to the history of the Lee / Kirby collaboration, makes the reading even more interesting.

 

I mean, if Jack completely had his way, we might be talking about "Cocoon-Man" and who knows what, instead of "Him" and "Adam Warlock".

(We’d also be treated to a better story).

 

The historical significance, the story as it was printed, plus the gorgeous Sinnott embellishment make FF 67 a better issue than Thor 165, in my opinion.

 

All things being equal I would place a higher value on FF 67 more than Thor 165. This is likely one of the many reasons why I make a better collector than I would a dealer, somewhat to my dismay.

 

[kav]

never under estimate the value of a cover image

[Unca Ben]

Don't judge a book by its cover.

[Dr. Balls]

I mean, if Jack completely had his way, we might be talking about "Cocoon-Man" and who knows what, instead of "Him" and "Adam Warlock".

(We’d also be treated to a better story).

 

I think based on what Roy Thomas has said about the Adam Warlock character (being influenced by Jesus Christ Superstar and wanting to bring it to comics) we may have gotten him anyway - but in a different look. I can't imagine what that look might have been - but I think it was actually kind of cool how they tied the High Evolutionary's tinkering to an old discarded character.

[jaeldubyoo]

Just to throw gas on this fire...

I don't think we'd be talking about Warlock/Him if it weren't for Starlin's work with the character. I'm a Fantastic Four guy, so FF 66 and 67 are the ones I have in nice shape, but I think the most important WARLOCK book is Strange Tales #178.

 

I imagine many will disagree.

 

(thumbs u I totally agree.

 

Without Starlin, Warlock would have been a minor character, soon forgotten. Under Starlin, Warlock evolved into the character that we know today. Starlin's version is seminal.

 

And the first appearance of Him/Warlock is FF 66 and 67, and as such, is more important than Thor 165 IMO.

[rjrjr]

Which book do you think it deserves the title and will get more attentions?

 

Fantastic Four #67 Origin and 1st appearance of Him (Warlock) in cameo OR

 

Thor #165 1st full appearance of Him (Warlock)?

 

Neither one;

 

Marvel Premiere #1 is the first appearance of Adam Warlock. The Fantastic Four & Thor appearances are of "HIM", not Adam Warlock. I've re-read those and I can't understand why Overstreet & CGC keep saying Adam Warlock's first full appearance is in Thor. It is "HIM". He becomes Adam Warlock in Marvel Premiere #1. I don't have a copy now, but as I remember it starts with HIM in a cacoon, the High Evolutionary comes along, grabs him and "evolves" him into Adam Warlock and gives him the Soul Gem. That should be the Origin & 1st appearance of Adam Warlock.

 

 

Isn't Adam Warlock just HIM with a perm and a shirt?

[CBT]

After the movie Thor seems to have pushed aside FF

 

After people on this board talked it up you mean

[r100comics]

 

Much better cover on #165. One of the all-time classic black covers.

 

FF v a giant caterpillar.

 

 

 

[Unca Ben]

I LIKE giant caterpillars

[Gotham Kid]

Isn't Adam Warlock just HIM with a perm and a shirt?

 

[Bronx]

67 has my vote. The cocoon cover is awesome and it his origin story.

[vaillant]

Much better cover on #165. One of the all-time classic black covers.

 

FF v a giant caterpillar.

 

 

 

At this point I wonder whether people buy comics or covers.

 

This whole discussion is nonsense… not really interested in following this anymore. It should not even be questioned.

[gaz973]

Much better cover on #165. One of the all-time classic black covers.

 

FF v a giant caterpillar.

 

 

 

At this point I wonder whether people buy comics or covers.

 

This whole discussion is nonsense… not really interested in following this anymore. It should not even be questioned.

I don't know why you insist on telling everyone that your opinion is the only valid one. I've read every Silver Age superhero story and like everyone else that you are so arrogantly dismissive of, I'm entitled to my opinion.

 

If I was picking which issue had the better story out of FF # 67 and Thor # 165 then I'd pick the FF. If I wanted to pick the origin of Him then I'd pick the FF. If I wanted to pick the 1st full appearance of Him as is in keeping with the majority of other full appearances of characters in comics then I'd pick Thor.

 

If you want to debate the merits of the argument then that's fine but please try to respect other users of this forum

[prez]

67 has my vote. The cocoon cover is awesome and it his origin story.

 

You would think that when a character's origin is the main focal point of the issue + a full body appearance will be a no brainer? Also, Thor 165 came out 2yrs after FF67 - too late to claim any glory IMHO.

 

I'm not a big wolverine fan so I'm not sure of 180-181's plot line. I'm guessing neither of those issues has anything to do with wolverine's character development - so cameo vs 1st full app is heavily debated. Also, wolvies "first full app" came out 1 month after his "cameo".

[zosocane]

Study the layouts on last page of FF67: it seems like Kirby ran out of room and finished the illustrations with the room he had left on the last half of the page. Him/Warlock on two relatively small panels; the quick death of his creators, all in the last couple of small panels on the page. Wouldn't Kirby have preferred to have another page to make a more dramatic illustration of that classic statement of the "child being the father of the man"? Maybe Him's appearance in FF67 is relegated to "cameo" because of space limitations? In substance, isn't FF67 really the first full appearance of Him, but in form, deemed a "cameo"?

 

Latest on the poll is interesting: 54% say Thor 165; 46% say FF67. Gap is closing.

[ItsJustRyan]

After the movie Thor seems to have pushed aside FF

 

After people on this board talked it up you mean

 

CBT ... You know I love ya but you seem especially sharp in this thread. Everyone here knows books are hyped, but CGC acknowledges Thor 165 as being the "1st full appearance." I have both Thor 165 and FF67, so I'm not taking sides. IMHO I think everyone should own both and MP1. I believe Thor 165 is/has been talked up for good reason, not just hype.

[Illustrious]

After the movie Thor seems to have pushed aside FF

 

After people on this board talked it up you mean

 

CBT ... You know I love ya but you seem especially sharp in this thread. Everyone here knows books are hyped, but CGC acknowledges Thor 165 as being the "1st full appearance." I have both Thor 165 and FF67, so I'm not taking sides. IMHO I think everyone should own both and MP1. I believe Thor 165 is/has been talked up for good reason, not just hype.

 

+1

[prez]

Study the layouts on last page of FF67: it seems like Kirby ran out of room and finished the illustrations with the room he had left on the last half of the page. Him/Warlock on two relatively small panels; the quick death of his creators, all in the last couple of small panels on the page. Wouldn't Kirby have preferred to have another page to make a more dramatic illustration of that classic statement of the "child being the father of the man"? Maybe Him's appearance in FF67 is relegated to "cameo" because of space limitations? In substance, isn't FF67 really the first full appearance of Him, but in form, deemed a "cameo"?

 

Latest on the poll is interesting: 54% say Thor 165; 46% say FF67. Gap is closing.

 

Good observation (thumbs u I guess size does matter.

 

Given the quality of FF67's story, HIM's appearance in multiple panels, and the 2yr gap between FF67 and Thor 165, I'm having a hard time buying Thor 165 is the money book in the long term. I think speculators (mainly responsible for driving prices) will eventually realize this.

[Mr Sneeze]

Study the layouts on last page of FF67: it seems like Kirby ran out of room and finished the illustrations with the room he had left on the last half of the page. Him/Warlock on two relatively small panels; the quick death of his creators, all in the last couple of small panels on the page. Wouldn't Kirby have preferred to have another page to make a more dramatic illustration of that classic statement of the "child being the father of the man"? Maybe Him's appearance in FF67 is relegated to "cameo" because of space limitations? In substance, isn't FF67 really the first full appearance of Him, but in form, deemed a "cameo"?

 

Latest on the poll is interesting: 54% say Thor 165; 46% say FF67. Gap is closing.

 

Good observation (thumbs u I guess size does matter.

 

Given the quality of FF67's story, HIM's appearance in multiple panels, and the 2yr gap between FF67 and Thor 165, I'm having a hard time buying Thor 165 is the money book in the long term. I think speculators (mainly responsible for driving prices) will eventually realize this.

 

I have to agree as well. It's FF 67 for me. I would love to get my hands on the Thor issues though!

I think long term - especially if there is a Warlock movie appearance - Marvel Premiere 1 will go sky high. It doesn't hurt that it's a tough book in grade as well.