1st Teen Titans 3 3

[JTLarsen]

You act like all this evidence is "new" -- as if you've suddenly discovered all of this amazing information -- but the hard truth is NOTHING you've shown is new. NOTHING you're basing your OPINION regarding BB54 is new. But the industry, the dealers, the actual publisher and owner of the Teen Titans all agree AND HAVE FOR DECADES, that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And guess what, they've seen all the stuff you've seen... and they still choose BB54.

 

Sorry, but DC has made it crystal clear their position is that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And if I had to chose between the PUBLISHER or the opinion of a few posters in a forum with questionable motives... I go with my position -- a position based in STORY and HISTORY backed by the people who created and printed the very books in question, backed by the leaders in the collecting industry, backed by the owners of the very board where you've chosen to voice your opinion:

 

BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans.

 

Sssshhh, it's going to be okay.

 

First of all, I don't "act like" this evidence is new. I specifically say it's old. Right there in B&B 54 and 60. If you have a quote in which I "act like" those are new, please quote it.

 

And I have also stipulated, from the start, that industry consensus gives the crown to B&B 54. Just as they did to OAAW 81 for decades. That changed and I think the Titans consensus will change, too.

 

And while your use of capitalization is very impressive, it doesn't change the fact that traditions can be wrong and the way we determine that is by examining the actual evidence. If you have evidence of the Teen Titans forming in B&B 54, go ahead and share it with us.

[Petey's Wheatcake]

So is BB 54 or BB 60 the first Teen Titans?

 

This was the original question.

 

There can be no other answer than BB 60. The name Teen Titans did not exist prior to this. Despite 36 pages of evidence to the contrary, there is nothing to be debated here. The first time a group of heroes is referred to as the "Teen Titans" is BB 60. Question answered. Problem solved.

 

What can be argued is whether the answer to this question matters or not. Maybe only "people who collect trademarks" care about such silly nonsense as official team names. Maybe BB 54 is the more important book, and maybe it will always be the more valuable book.

 

Those are fun things to debate, but they are entirely separate discussions which have no bearing on the original question. Maybe the group of heroes that eventually went on to refer to themselves as the Teen Titans first appeared together in BB 54. Okay. That can be debated (although it is debatable due to Robin's use of the word "after" and most importantly - Wonder Girl). Doesn't change the fact that the Teen Titans did not exist until BB 60. Maybe a team existed, but the Teen Titans did not.

 

I think sfcityduck makes some great points regarding the formation of the team, and the only obvious inaccuracy in his statements is when he refers to BB 60 as the second appearance of the Teen Titans. That's impossible due to the fact that the name did not even exist until that issue.

 

As a Titans collector, I think 54 is a must have issue. If I could only have one? That's an extremely tough call, but I think I would have to choose 54 over 60. I'm probably biased because it's always been the more sought after issue, but I also really enjoy that particular story. This, of course, is a matter of opinion. But almost everything debated in this thread has been a matter of opinion presented as fact.

 

The official team name matters because comic collectors love the details. Minutiae matters in this hobby, and to be fair, this is a fairly significant point. It also matters because of $$$, but money has been an extremely important part of comic book collecting for as long as I've been alive. This should come as no surprise, and it's not really as nefarious an aspect of this hobby as some would lead us to believe.

 

You can always collect whatever floats your particular boat, regardless of value, CGC labels, etc.

 

 

This is a great post. And it's a better conversation than the one we've been having!

 

But perhaps beside the point. The question is not where the name The Teen Titans first appeared it is where the Teen Titans first appeared. If you are interested in the Chicago Cubs history you don't say they started in 1902 when the news papers coined the name "Cubs" or in 1907 when they officially took the name The Chicago Cubs. They were a team before that with a different name (The Chicago White Stockings) since 1876.

 

Yeah, but they weren't the Cubs.

 

I was going to use sports team analogies because I think they prove my point perfectly, but I felt that I'd already rambled on long enough. :-)

 

If you really love that team, then 1876 is an important date to you. Great point. I agree 100%. If you only collect Cubs memorabilia though, then all you care about are references to the team known as The Chicago Cubs. It's really up to the individual.

 

I think BB 54 matters and I want it in my collection. I cannot refer to that issue as the first appearance of the Teen Titans however, because it simply wasn't. In a hobby where collectors agonize over cameos, computer screens, framed pictures in the background, hands in the shadows, and various house ads, I think that distinction really matters.

[yoddler]

I'd love to own more copies, but I believe there are many hoarders of this book. They never last long when they are up for sale.

So whadduya say, Yoddler? If you post up your 60 Ill put up a scan of my A copy as well.

 

I don't have a great scanner, so a quick phone pic instead...

 

[JTLarsen]

Right. But since they could have, then BB54 isn't a prerequisite for BB60. I'm not exactly sure why we're arguing about this. I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone arguing that BB54 is a precursor, or part of the story, or part of the origin or whatever. I, too, think it's an important book. It just doesn't have the first appearance of the Teen Titans in it.

 

You're right -- let's stop arguing about it and go grab a beer!

 

First one to fall down drunk buys the other a copy of B&B 57.

Edited October 28, 2014 by jtlarsen

[thunsicker]

I'd love to own more copies, but I believe there are many hoarders of this book. They never last long when they are up for sale.

So whadduya say, Yoddler? If you post up your 60 Ill put up a scan of my A copy as well.

 

I don't have a great scanner, so a quick phone pic instead...

 

 

 

 

That looks higher grade than your Brave and the Bold 54. Shouldn't you be arguing the other side?

[yoddler]

You act like all this evidence is "new" -- as if you've suddenly discovered all of this amazing information -- but the hard truth is NOTHING you've shown is new. NOTHING you're basing your OPINION regarding BB54 is new. But the industry, the dealers, the actual publisher and owner of the Teen Titans all agree AND HAVE FOR DECADES, that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And guess what, they've seen all the stuff you've seen... and they still choose BB54.

 

Sorry, but DC has made it crystal clear their position is that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. And if I had to chose between the PUBLISHER or the opinion of a few posters in a forum with questionable motives... I go with my position -- a position based in STORY and HISTORY backed by the people who created and printed the very books in question, backed by the leaders in the collecting industry, backed by the owners of the very board where you've chosen to voice your opinion:

 

BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans.

 

Sssshhh, it's going to be okay.

 

First of all, I don't "act like" this evidence is new. I specifically say it's old. Right there in B&B 54 and 60. If you have a quote in which I "act like" those are new, please quote it.

 

And I have also stipulated, from the start, that industry consensus gives the crown to B&B 54. Just as they did to OAAW 81 for decades. That changed and I think the Titans consensus will change, too.

 

And while your use of capitalization is very impressive, it doesn't change the fact that traditions can be wrong and the way we determine that is by examining the actual evidence. If you have evidence of the Teen Titans forming in B&B 54, go ahead and share it with us.

 

You're position in this is harder -- you have to create a sea change from the status quo. You have to take what is the prevailing opinion and convince the industry that you're opinion is better than decades of what has been heretofore presented as fact.

 

I just don't think you've done it. Rehashing the same information that's already in the public isn't going to be enough. If you had something new, then maybe I'd be more inclined to listen.

 

And yeah, motivation is a factor in this as well. Why change now? Why after decades of the industry accepting the fact that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans are you trying to suddenly change it?

 

I wish you luck, but for me personally, I'm not convinced.

[Ferdelance]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

[JTLarsen]

You're position in this is harder -- you have to create a sea change from the status quo. You have to take what is the prevailing opinion and convince the industry that you're opinion is better than decades of what has been heretofore presented as fact.

 

I just don't think you've done it. Rehashing the same information that's already in the public isn't going to be enough. If you had something new, then maybe I'd be more inclined to listen.

 

And yeah, motivation is a factor in this as well. Why change now? Why after decades of the industry accepting the fact that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans are you trying to suddenly change it?

 

I wish you luck, but for me personally, I'm not convinced.

 

I'm actually not trying to convince anyone. But thank you for the sentiment. I didn't start this thread, but I've thought this for years and the counter-arguments got under my skin. I went through the same thing with OAW years ago and decided to spend my money on 83 after deciding that the consensus around 81 was wrong. Within a few years, Overstreet totally reversed itself and now my 83 was considered the first appearance. I didn't weigh in on that discussion anywhere. But it opened my eyes to the fact that rock-hard consensus can change extremely quickly.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just responding to arguments that I find specious. Lots of claims have been made about B&B 54 that I'm not disagreeing with. Important? Yes. Origin? If you like. Part of the canon? I'd say so.

 

So, I'm not trying to drag 54 down. I'm not trying to MAKE the sea change happen. I'm just predicting that it will when people weigh all the evidence.

 

Can we have our beer now?

[akaSteveRogers]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

Can we end this argument now? Robin, Aqualad, Kid Flash team-up in BB54. DC realizes this is a hit, add Wonder Girl and call them the Teen Titans (hence BB60).

 

BB54 1st team of Robin, Aqualad, and Kid Flash. Prelude to the Teen Titans.

 

BB60 1st Teen Titans.

 

Both important. You like TT? Get both...and TT1 to boot.

 

 

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by akaSteveRogers

[yoddler]

I'm actually not trying to convince anyone. But thank you for the sentiment. I didn't start this thread, but I've thought this for years and the counter-arguments got under my skin. I went through the same thing with OAW years ago and decided to spend my money on 83 after deciding that the consensus around 81 was wrong. Within a few years, Overstreet totally reversed itself and now my 83 was considered the first appearance. I didn't weigh in on that discussion anywhere. But it opened my eyes to the fact that rock-hard consensus can change extremely quickly.

 

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm just responding to arguments that I find specious. Lots of claims have been made about B&B 54 that I'm not disagreeing with. Important? Yes. Origin? If you like. Part of the canon? I'd say so.

 

So, I'm not trying to drag 54 down. I'm not trying to MAKE the sea change happen. I'm just predicting that it will when people weigh all the evidence.

 

Can we have our beer now?

 

When I said "you" I was probably talking more to the BB60 camp and less directly to you personally, but I appreciate you clarifying your position... As far as people weighing the evidence, they've had decades to weigh the same evidence presented here, so not sure a sea change will happen. The industry has had 50 years to come to the conclusion that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. If something new and definitive comes along, I'm sure it will be taken into consideration.

 

[Broke as a Joke]

I'd love to own more copies, but I believe there are many hoarders of this book. They never last long when they are up for sale.

So whadduya say, Yoddler? If you post up your 60 Ill put up a scan of my A copy as well.

 

I don't have a great scanner, so a quick phone pic instead...

 

 

Love that logo.

[yoddler]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

Can we end this argument now? Robin, Aqualad, Kid Flash team-up in BB54. DC realizes this is a hit, add Wonder Girl and call them the Teen Titans (hence BB60).

 

BB54 1st team of Robin, Aqualad, and Kid Flash. Prelude to the Teen Titans.

 

BB60 1st Teen Titans.

 

Both important. You like TT? Get both...and TT1 to boot.

 

 

 

You forgot Showcase 59

[akaSteveRogers]

...DC states within BB 60 the team originated only after the events of BB 54. My position is this:

 

BB 54:1st Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin team-up. Origin of Teen Titans.

BB 60:1st Donna Troy as Wonder Girl; 1st Teen Titans

 

(thumbs u

 

[AGGIEZ]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

No, Robin says "after" B&B 54. If you think Robin is wrong about when he set up the Teen Titans, please identify the panel in B&B 54 in which that happens.

 

There is nowhere that says after "B&B 54"...it says "after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" which was in B&B 54 with the issue ending with the team formed…the team was later named TEEN TITANS in B&B 60 and added a new member.

 

This thread has certainly run its course. It's beginning to sound like Capital Hill...

[AGGIEZ]

A question to the BB54 supporters just to make things clear. Do you guys think these labels are completely accurate, and could not be put better?

 

BB54: Origin and the first appearance of the teen titans(Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad.)

 

BB60: 1st appearance of the new wonder girl Donna Troy, who joins the teen titans.

 

I'd capitalize "Teen Titans," but otherwise I think that is accurate. I'm a generous soul, though, so I'd probably go with this for BB 60:

 

BB60: 2nd appearance of the Teen Titans. Introduction and first appearance of the new Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), who joins the Teen Titans. First adoption of the team name "Teen Titans."

 

Agree...I think this is accurate:

 

BB54: Origin and 1st appearance of the Teen Titans (Robin, Kid Flash, Aqualad.)

 

BB60: 2nd appearance of the Teen Titans. Introduction and 1st appearance of the new Wonder Girl (Donna Troy), who joins the Teen Titans. First adoption of the team name "Teen Titans."

[yoddler]

...DC states within BB 60 the team originated only after the events of BB 54. My position is this:

 

BB 54:1st Aqualad, Kid Flash, Robin team-up. Origin of Teen Titans.

BB 60:1st Donna Troy as Wonder Girl; 1st Teen Titans

 

(thumbs u

 

 

The conundrum is how can you have the origin of the Teen Titans in an issue preceding their first appearance? If BB54 is their origin, they have to be a part of the story in that issue right?

 

If I had to change the label, I'd change BB60 include "First use of Teen Titans name"...

[AlexanderM]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

[yoddler]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

 

Do you actually know the publishing history of these books??? Read the excerpt from TT#1 above that directly links the two books together. 54 begat 60.

Edited October 28, 2014 by yoddler

[AlexanderM]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

[yoddler]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?