1st Teen Titans 3 3

[AlexanderM]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

 

Do you actually know the publishing history of these books??? Read the excerpt from TT#1 above that directly links the two books together. 54 begat 60.

 

I have both. You tend to get very personal when discussing this. I think you should try to keep that in check. Thanks.

 

You can 'begat' from here till eternity... that argument leads nowhere because some earlier issue very often begat another. BB53 begat BB54....

 

It is extremely clear that DC got the idea to do a cross-over in BB54. They did not make them a team but more a cross-over like Superman 76. When they saw the huge success, they made them an actual team in BB60 with wonder girl (to appeal to girls too) with teen team.

[AlexanderM]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

[revat]

isn't this argument pretty close to Heroes for Hire?

 

they meet and fight in Power Man 48, work together in 49, and officially become a team in 50, and officially name the team "Heroes for Hire" in 54?

 

I think most people accept 54 as the 1st Heroes for Hire.

 

I think there's three sides to this Teen Titans argument.

 

Side 1: It should be treated the same as Heroes for Hire, they worked together previously, but didn't become 'official' until BB60.

 

Side 2: The first time you and your buddies got together in your garage for a jam session, even though you didn't plan to start a band, and didn't have a name, and didn't have a hot lead singer girl, was the TRUE start of your band. You had so much fun, that a month later you added a lead singer and chose a name. But that first time, that was the first appearance of "insert band name here"

 

Side 3: I prefer Side 2, but Side 1 probably makes more sense from a technical, logical sense, BUT the market and DC have already decided its BB54, and I don't think they'll change their mind. At minimum its the "origin of Teen Titans", and an integral part of the history. I know I personally would want to know about the first time my favorite band got together in a garage.

 

Bottom Line, IF you're a true fan, get both. If you're a collector, and can afford a high grade copy of one, you can probably afford a high grade copy of both. If you're looking to FLIP, BB60 probably has more potential (and risk) because its currently not viewed as the 1st app by the market. If you want something with more certainty, go for BB54.

 

And in general, we should probably accept that even with seemingly well reasoned logic we can't always change someone else's mind.

 

 

[yoddler]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

 

Do you actually know the publishing history of these books??? Read the excerpt from TT#1 above that directly links the two books together. 54 begat 60.

 

I have both. You tend to get very personal when discussing this. I think you should try to keep that in check. Thanks.

 

You can 'begat' from here till eternity... that argument leads nowhere because some earlier issue very often begat another. BB53 begat BB54....

 

It is extremely clear that DC got the idea to do a cross-over in BB54. They did not make them a team but more a cross-over like Superman 76. When they saw the huge success, they made them an actual team in BB60 with wonder girl (to appeal to girls too) with teen team.

 

I lose my patience when it appears someone doesn't care at all about the actual history surrounding a title... if you're going to suggest such a sea change in the industry, I would expect at least a nod or consideration to historical events and the context of how these decisions were made to the comics we love. That's what separates the collectors from the speculators.

 

If they weren't a team in BB54, why does the last panel in BB54 say the start of a new TEAM then?

[yoddler]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

[revat]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

To be fair, just because DC says its a certain way, doesn't actually make it true. You'd probably have to go back to the actual writer to the actual truth.

 

Scenario 1: Bob Haney (or an editor) says, "Hey it'd be fun to right an issue teaming up these three characters." Bob writes it, and someone (editor or him) says "Hey we should team these guys up more in the future, build a team!"

 

Scenario 2: Bob (or an editor) says "Hey lets start a team using these characters, lets make the origin story issue 54, and continue on in future issues"

 

Whichever bosses/marketing type later made 54 the 1st app or origin may not have been privy to the original logic/decisions and made a judgment call. That doesn't make it true, just accepted as truth.

[AlexanderM]

isn't this argument pretty close to Heroes for Hire?

 

they meet and fight in Power Man 48, work together in 49, and officially become a team in 50, and officially name the team "Heroes for Hire" in 54?

 

I think most people accept 54 as the 1st Heroes for Hire.

 

I think there's three sides to this Teen Titans argument.

 

Side 1: It should be treated the same as Heroes for Hire, they worked together previously, but didn't become 'official' until BB60.

 

Side 2: The first time you and your buddies got together in your garage for a jam session, even though you didn't plan to start a band, and didn't have a name, and didn't have a hot lead singer girl, was the TRUE start of your band. You had so much fun, that a month later you added a lead singer and chose a name. But that first time, that was the first appearance of "insert band name here"

 

Side 3: I prefer Side 2, but Side 1 probably makes more sense from a technical, logical sense, BUT the market and DC have already decided its BB54, and I don't think they'll change their mind. At minimum its the "origin of Teen Titans", and an integral part of the history. I know I personally would want to know about the first time my favorite band got together in a garage.

 

Bottom Line, IF you're a true fan, get both. If you're a collector, and can afford a high grade copy of one, you can probably afford a high grade copy of both. If you're looking to FLIP, BB60 probably has more potential (and risk) because its currently not viewed as the 1st app by the market. If you want something with more certainty, go for BB54.

 

And in general, we should probably accept that even with seemingly well reasoned logic we can't always change someone else's mind.

 

 

This is a good post.

 

I do agree that either way both are important.

 

From a logial point of view BB60 is the first appearance, but BB59 tells much of the back story of why they formed. So there are strong arguments why a true collector would want both.

[yoddler]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

To be fair, just because DC says its a certain way, doesn't actually make it true. You'd probably have to go back to the actual writer to the actual truth.

 

Scenario 1: Bob Haney (or an editor) says, "Hey it'd be fun to right an issue teaming up these three characters." Bob writes it, and someone (editor or him) says "Hey we should team these guys up more in the future, build a team!"

 

Scenario 2: Bob (or an editor) says "Hey lets start a team using these characters, lets make the origin story issue 54, and continue on in future issues"

 

Whichever bosses/marketing type later made 54 the 1st app or origin may not have been privy to the original logic/decisions and made a judgment call. That doesn't make it true, just accepted as truth.

 

And you know this as fact because you were there?

 

You're speculating, I get that. But nothing you say contradicts anything I've said. It's all smoke.

Edited October 28, 2014 by yoddler

[JTLarsen]

 

Not according to Robin, who says the team formed after B&B 54.

 

 

That's not what Robin says. That you have to make stuff up doesn't support your argument.

 

Let's go to the videotape.

 

 

 

So, try again.

 

Oh, and still waiting for you to identify where in B&B 54 the Teen Titans first appears. Or are you really claiming that a text box after the story is their first appearance?

 

 

This has been covered already…

 

Not sure that picture strengthens or weakens your argument. Doesn't the word bubble clearly state "Teen Titans is a group of junior crime-fighters I set up, after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners"…?

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see any mention of Wonder Girl in there. B&B #54 ends with the team being formed. Wonder Girl was obviously not a founding member to the team being blatantly absent from Robin's comment in this issue.

 

I think this one obviously points to B&B 54 as the 1st appearance of the TEEN TITANS…straight from Robin's mouth...

 

No, Robin says "after" B&B 54. If you think Robin is wrong about when he set up the Teen Titans, please identify the panel in B&B 54 in which that happens.

 

There is nowhere that says after "B&B 54"...it says "after Kid-Flash, Aqualad and I helped the teenagers of Hatton Corners" which was in B&B 54 with the issue ending with the team formed…the team was later named TEEN TITANS in B&B 60 and added a new member.

 

This thread has certainly run its course. It's beginning to sound like Capital Hill...

 

He says, "after" they helped the teens of Hatton Corners, which the asterisked footnote tells us was in B&B 54. And I just re-read 54. They don't form a team. The teens of Hatton Corners invite the three of them--separately, individually--they all arrive, team up just like heroes did in every issue, and then it's over. No forming of a team. If you think they formed a team, show us the panel where it happened.

[revat]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

To be fair, just because DC says its a certain way, doesn't actually make it true. You'd probably have to go back to the actual writer to the actual truth.

 

Scenario 1: Bob Haney (or an editor) says, "Hey it'd be fun to right an issue teaming up these three characters." Bob writes it, and someone (editor or him) says "Hey we should team these guys up more in the future, build a team!"

 

Scenario 2: Bob (or an editor) says "Hey lets start a team using these characters, lets make the origin story issue 54, and continue on in future issues"

 

Whichever bosses/marketing type later made 54 the 1st app or origin may not have been privy to the original logic/decisions and made a judgment call. That doesn't make it true, just accepted as truth.

 

And you know this as fact because you were there?

 

You're speculating, I get that. But nothing you say contradicts anything I've said. It's all smoke.

 

I'm not contradicting per se, you could be completely right. And to be honest, it probably doesn't matter if any one is right. Things are what they are, and they are what they have been for 40+ years, and I'm fine with it, I'm just saying the absolute truth and what's commonly accepted aren't necessarily the same, although they certainly might be. And in this case, it might be a case of memory, or perspective, or even indifference (as 1st appearances REALLY didn't matter to anyone for a long time after this comic was written, even if they were occasionally mentioned). You're coming off in a way that says there's no room for a well reasoned counter argument just because the market and DC have decided BB54 to be 1st app. I would say that there is room for a counter argument, but I would also say that it doesn't matter since the argument has been available from the beginning and hasn't changed the perception of the public or DC.

[JTLarsen]

Two things should be enough (besides DC publishing in comics clearly that 60 WAS the first appearance etc.):

 

If BB60 was never published.... no-one would know the Teen Titans. The Teen Titans would not exist!

 

Simply because they were founded between 54 and 60 with "Wonder Girl as original founding member".

 

 

If 54 was never published, 60 would not have been published.

 

That's a 'maybe'.

 

It is, on the other hand, save to say that BB54 alone is NOT enough to call anything Teen Titans.

 

60... now that IS enough to introduce the Teen Titans - even if 54 never existed. Now - they might or might not have printed 60....without 54, but that is speculation.

 

Do you actually know the publishing history of these books??? Read the excerpt from TT#1 above that directly links the two books together. 54 begat 60.

 

I have both. You tend to get very personal when discussing this. I think you should try to keep that in check. Thanks.

 

You can 'begat' from here till eternity... that argument leads nowhere because some earlier issue very often begat another. BB53 begat BB54....

 

It is extremely clear that DC got the idea to do a cross-over in BB54. They did not make them a team but more a cross-over like Superman 76. When they saw the huge success, they made them an actual team in BB60 with wonder girl (to appeal to girls too) with teen team.

 

I lose my patience when it appears someone doesn't care at all about the actual history surrounding a title... if you're going to suggest such a sea change in the industry, I would expect at least a nod or consideration to historical events and the context of how these decisions were made to the comics we love. That's what separates the collectors from the speculators.

 

If they weren't a team in BB54, why does the last panel in BB54 say the start of a new TEAM then?

 

I'm glad you mentioned that. Because I just went back and re-read BB54. And to my shock and surprise, the quote that's been hurled around so often about the new team has not been quoted in full here. Shocking, I know.

 

Here's what the ENTIRE caption box says:

 

"Once again, a startling new team of DC heroes has triumphed! Watch BRAVE AND BOLD for NEW teams, NEW adventures, NEW excitement!"

 

So, unless you think this was an advance plug for the first appearance of Batman & the Outsiders in BB200, can you tell me which "NEW teams" appeared in the issues following BB54?

 

55: Metal Men and Atom (Metal Men were not a new team, so this must've been the first appearance of a to-be-named-later team consisting of Atom, Platinum, Tin, etc...)

56: Flash and Martian Manhunter

57/58: Metamorpho (not a team, except of elements).

59: Batman and Green Lantern (first appearance of the Batman/Green Lantern team! Heaing up on ebay!)

60: Clearly not a new team.

61: Starman and Black Canary

Etc.

 

So, if the intention of that now-FULLY-quoted caption box was to announce that the three teens had just formed a team while we weren't looking, what "NEW teams" were they telling us to watch for afterward?

 

Unless, of course, they used the word "team" in its lower-case sense to mean any combination of people, without the formal existence of a standing, recurring alliance.

 

In which case, BB60 would be the first appearance of the team we all know and love as The Teen Titans.

 

Now where's that mic-drop emoji...

[Crimebuster]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

There have been several images posted in this thread that have also shown DC at various times has considered #60 to be the teams first appearance. So why should we conveniently ignore those - as you are doing - but give weight to their statements supporting #54?

 

It seems pretty clear from what people have posted here that at various times, different editors at DC have considered one or the other to be the team's first appearance. So that avenue of argument seems kind of pointless, as they cancel themselves out.

 

Furthermore, as I have said before, who cares what DC thinks? We can read the comics and see for ourselves what was actually published. I mean, DC could announce tomorrow that they consider More Fun Comics #14 to be the first appearance of Superman, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I don't see how either "the market" or DC editorial can, should or does have any effect on the actual contents of the actual comics. Who cares what conventional wisdom has believed for the last 50 years? Let's deal with what's in the comics!

 

 

You know, about a year ago I got in a similar argument regarding TTA #27 vs. #35, only in that case, I was arguing the opposite side. That argument went on for a long time and got somewhat nasty and somewhat personal.

 

Despite that, however, I thought the other side had a lot of good points. Their arguments had merit, and there's a good chance I was wrong.

 

In this case, though, I have to say I haven't seen any good evidence to suggest that #54 is correct. Almost all of the arguments presented rely on conventional wisdom, retroactive editorial decisions or ambiguous editorial commentary made decades later.

 

The only bit of evidence given in favor of #54 that seems to hold any weight for me is the use of the word "team" in the text box following the story. That I can see, and I think that argument has merit.

 

It doesn't sway me personally, however, because team can be used formally or informally, and nothing in the story suggests they meant it in a formal sense. DC had been using the term "Superman-Batman team" in issues of World's Finest for many years at that point, but were Superman and Batman actually a team in the same sense that the Justice league or the Teen Titans are a team? No, of course not.

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of ambiguous first appearances in comics that are worthy of debate. Ant-Man is kinda complicated, depending on how you look at things. The first appearance of the Unknown Soldier gets legitimately complicated. Or, if you want to really get into an endless continuity morass, we can debate the first appearance of the Silver Age Black Canary.

 

But this doesn't seem nearly as complicated. #60 is literally the first time the "Teen Titans" appear.

[JTLarsen]

I would change the labels to:

 

BB53: "first mention of robin, aqualad, and kid flash being friends"

 

BB54: "first team-up of robin, aqualad, and kid flash"

 

BB60: "first appearance of the teen titans founded by robin, aqualad, kid flash, and wonder girl".

 

Then you would be ignoring the publishing history, the actual storyline, and decades of opposing opinion... to what end?

 

I'm ignoring comics history? Did you even see the picture from Teen Titans posted above by Ferdelance?

 

It is clear that the rumour spread for several years that BB54 was the first appearance. Just like Hulk 271 is the first Racoon. Misinformation easily spreads. But if you go by what actually happened that says BB60.

 

Misinformation begat misinformation.

 

Attributing 50 years of professional opinion as misinformation is ridiculous. DC has stated several times that BB54 is the first appearance and origin. Are you saying DC is misinformed about their own property?

 

There have been several images posted in this thread that have also shown DC at various times has considered #60 to be the teams first appearance. So why should we conveniently ignore those - as you are doing - but give weight to their statements supporting #54?

 

It seems pretty clear from what people have posted here that at various times, different editors at DC have considered one or the other to be the team's first appearance. So that avenue of argument seems kind of pointless, as they cancel themselves out.

 

Furthermore, as I have said before, who cares what DC thinks? We can read the comics and see for ourselves what was actually published. I mean, DC could announce tomorrow that they consider More Fun Comics #14 to be the first appearance of Superman, but that doesn't mean it's true.

 

I don't see how either "the market" or DC editorial can, should or does have any effect on the actual contents of the actual comics. Who cares what conventional wisdom has believed for the last 50 years? Let's deal with what's in the comics!

 

 

You know, about a year ago I got in a similar argument regarding TTA #27 vs. #35, only in that case, I was arguing the opposite side. That argument went on for a long time and got somewhat nasty and somewhat personal.

 

Despite that, however, I thought the other side had a lot of good points. Their arguments had merit, and there's a good chance I was wrong.

 

In this case, though, I have to say I haven't seen any good evidence to suggest that #54 is correct. Almost all of the arguments presented rely on conventional wisdom, retroactive editorial decisions or ambiguous editorial commentary made decades later.

 

The only bit of evidence given in favor of #54 that seems to hold any weight for me is the use of the word "team" in the text box following the story. That I can see, and I think that argument has merit.

 

It doesn't sway me personally, however, because team can be used formally or informally, and nothing in the story suggests they meant it in a formal sense. DC had been using the term "Superman-Batman team" in issues of World's Finest for many years at that point, but were Superman and Batman actually a team in the same sense that the Justice league or the Teen Titans are a team? No, of course not.

 

 

 

 

There are a lot of ambiguous first appearances in comics that are worthy of debate. Ant-Man is kinda complicated, depending on how you look at things. The first appearance of the Unknown Soldier gets legitimately complicated. Or, if you want to really get into an endless continuity morass, we can debate the first appearance of the Silver Age Black Canary.

 

But this doesn't seem nearly as complicated. #60 is literally the first time the "Teen Titans" appear.

 

What he said. The guy with the rationality.

[HighStakesComics]

My A copy as promised

[yoddler]

My A copy as promised

 

Nice copy!

[HighStakesComics]

My A copy as promised

 

Nice copy!

 

Thank you. As is yours, my friend.

[yoddler]

I'm on record here numerous times with my thoughts on this. Nothing anyone has said has changed my position that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. If someone wants to post something new I'll consider it. It's all really just a difference of opinions, and you know what they say about opinions...

 

I would suggest new posters read the entire thread before contributing, as many rehash or restate the same worn out arguments over and over again without shedding any new light on the debate. It's a good read with many interesting points made on both sides.

 

But no one has delivered a definitive statement on either side, so I'll continue to be on the BB54 wagon, as it is the current and currently correct title for Teen Titans first appearance and origin.

 

(Picks up mic and carefully places it back in the stand).

[HighStakesComics]

Probably time for a poll:

[thunsicker]

O how about ...

[JTLarsen]

I'm on record here numerous times with my thoughts on this. Nothing anyone has said has changed my position that BB54 is the first appearance and origin of the Teen Titans. If someone wants to post something new I'll consider it. It's all really just a difference of opinions, and you know what they say about opinions...

 

I would suggest new posters read the entire thread before contributing, as many rehash or restate the same worn out arguments over and over again without shedding any new light on the debate. It's a good read with many interesting points made on both sides.

 

But no one has delivered a definitive statement on either side, so I'll continue to be on the BB54 wagon, as it is the current and currently correct title for Teen Titans first appearance and origin.

 

(Picks up mic and carefully places it back in the stand).

 

You are SO pandering to the whole bipartisan compromise crowd. You're welcome to stay on that antiquated wagon, but a change is gonna come my friend...the BB60 bullet train has left the station and it's coming for us all (complete with actual definitive statement from Robin, the Boy Wonder)!