1st Teen Titans 3 3

[sfcityduck]

Could you guys move on to Hulk #180/181 after this?

 

Thanks.

 

I think I already solved that one up thread.

[HighStakesComics]

Really? The financial dreams argument? One comic is going to make or break my family's finances? You don't think I could buy a handful of HG 54's tomorrow? The reason I choose to own the 60 is because my ability to read has made it very obvious that the book that requires puffery is the 54. The 60 is easy to defend. I could just sit back and let you post articles that contradict your arguments, but I'm actually intrigued by your motivations since you claim to have no stake in the game. So please tell me, Sir. Why are you using early 40's Germanic propaganda tricks to try and hornswaggle others into seeing things your way? What is your role here?

[HighStakesComics]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54.

 

Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin.....

 

-J.

 

What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans."

 

Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments:

 

(1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans";

 

(2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team;

 

(3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and

 

(4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60.

 

Keep it up! You're doing great!!

[sfcityduck]

Blazing,

 

I don't care about your finances or how you choose to make money.

 

But, when you start a thread basing your argument on the assertion that DC says BB 60 is the first Teen Titans appearance, are repeatedly corrected as it is pointed out to you that DC's official position from TT 1 to the first reprint of BB 54 to the definitive reprinting of TT stories in the Archives and Showcases to the present day is that BB 54 is the first appearance, and yet continue to keep asserting that BB 60 is the first appearance with increasingly more airy arguments, I begin to wonder what your motivations are. Clearly, it wasn't to point out that DC has corrected the record. You apparently don't care what DC says, despite what you said in your first post. And since you've stated your motivation is that BB 60 is undervalued and you want to buy more of them and see them appreciate, my speculation is that the motivation for your incredible tenacity in trying to stop the tide is an attempt to sway the market.

 

Am I really wrong. Why else are you putting this much effort in?

 

My motivation is simple: I like the Teen Titans stories, and I don't like to see people misled about the true origin and first appearance of the team.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54.

 

Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin.....

 

-J.

 

What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans."

 

Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments:

 

(1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans";

 

(2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team;

 

(3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and

 

(4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60.

 

Keep it up! You're doing great!!

 

If we agree on (3) and (4), e.g., that the team pre-dated Wonder Girl (hence she was an "addition" to the "team") and that all BB 60 did was name the team, then you're back on the reservation with the official DC position.

[HighStakesComics]

Then show me where they appear in 54. Don't take one word out of context and use it as the cornerstone of your argument. Don't post an article that strengthens my argument. I'm a reasonable guy. Clearly I'm passionate about comics. Convince me with one panel that clearly defines a team in perpetuity called the Teen Titans in 54 and Ill pick myself off the pavement and move on. Therein lies the issue. I know what I'm asking you cannot be done.

[Jaydogrules]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54.

 

Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin.....

 

-J.

 

What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans."

 

Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments:

 

(1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans";

 

(2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team;

 

(3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and

 

(4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60.

 

Keep it up! You're doing great!!

 

If we agree on (3) and (4), e.g., that the team pre-dated Wonder Girl (hence she was an "addition" to the "team") and that all BB 60 did was name the team, then you're back on the reservation with the official DC position.

 

Semantic arguments make my head hurt.

 

Playing devil's advocate here....

 

Could that paragraph not also be construed as the "Team" not becoming the "Teen Titans" until wonder girl was added in BB60?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and own neither book.

 

-J.

[HighStakesComics]

 

I found this article in Teen Titans 1

 

I think we can stick a fork in this debate. Frigging Teen Titans 1 states that the history of the Teen Titans starts with BB 54. It also states that what happened in BB 60 was that DC responded to the "call for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team ...." That text eliminates all doubt. The team originated in BB 54.

 

Not to stir the pot here either way but that text does specifically state that they were not "introduced to comicdom" as the "TEEN TITANS" until BB60, once wonder girl was added. Just sayin.....

 

-J.

 

 

What it says is that "we took the lead of a number of fans who called for the addition of Wonder Girl to the teen team, and we introduced them to the comicdom as the Teen Titans."

 

Four important facts to take from TT 1 text comments:

 

(1) DC views BB 54 as the starting point of the "history of the Teen Titans";

 

(2) Fans at the time viewed Robin, Kid Flash, and Aqualad as a "team," and lobbied for Wonder Girl to join the team;

 

(3) DC agreed to make Wonder Girl an "addition" to the "team"; and

 

(4) They introduced the team name "Teen Titans" in BB 60.

 

Keep it up! You're doing great!!

 

If we agree on (3) and (4), e.g., that the team pre-dated Wonder Girl (hence she was an "addition" to the "team") and that all BB 60 did was name the team, then you're back on the reservation with the official DC position.

 

It's just that if the team who pre-dated Wonder Girl was the Teen Titans I have yet to see a single panel in 54 acknowledging this. The panel does not exist. You have a nice well written origin story, but the first Teen Titans it is not.

[sfcityduck]

Then show me where they appear in 54. Don't take one word out of context and use it as the cornerstone of your argument. Don't post an article that strengthens my argument. I'm a reasonable guy. Clearly I'm passionate about comics. Convince me with one panel that clearly defines a team in perpetuity called the Teen Titans in 54 and Ill pick myself off the pavement and move on. Therein lies the issue. I know what I'm asking you cannot be done.

 

A LOT of problems with the above.

 

First, as you have been told a million times on this thread, no one is claiming that the "team" formed in BB 54 was called the "Teen Titans" in that issue. The "team" was formed in BB 54 and it was named in BB 60. That's the official DC history of the Teen Titans in TT 1, in the first reprinting of BB 54 in the 1973 DC 100 Page Super Spectacular 21, in the Official Teen Titans Index vetted by DC and overseen by folks like Jerry Bails and George Olshevsky, in the DC Silver Age Teen Titans Index, in the DC Teen Titans Showcase, in the DC celebration of the Teen Titans 50th Anniversary, and I'm willing to guess in the new Teen Titans book coming out in less than a month.

 

Second, the story of BB 54 tells you how three young heroes are thrust together by circumstances, adventure together, learn that the sum is more than the parts, and form a team. It is a redux of the story told in Avengers 1. And at the conclusion of the story in BB 54, very last panel, the text celebrates the triumph of this "new team." So as soon as BB 54, DC recognized the formation of a "new team." This view of BB 54 was endorsed by both the next appearance of the "team" in BB 60 and in the backstory told in the first issue of the new team's own title TT 1.

 

Third, what you are doing is constructing a logical fallacy. The fallacy is that you think a team cannot be formed unless it chooses a name. But, there's no logical reason why this must be so. TTA 27 tells us a hero can appear without a name. FF 1 tells us a hero and team can appear without costumes. The hard and fast rule upon which you rely just doesn't exist.

 

The most accurate thing you've said on this thread in a while is that you know the tests you've set up are impossible to meet. That appears to the m.o. of those pushing BB 60.

 

During the course of this thread you and others have tried to rely on DC's "official position," but now that it is clear it doesn't support you, you run from it.

 

Some here wanted evidence that fans viewed BB 54 as creating a team before they would concede it did so. TT 1 now provides that evidence. Yet, I see no statements of acceptance of BB as forming a team.

 

Given these setbacks to your position, I don't think you are interested in setting up tests that can be met.

 

 

[sfcityduck]

 

It's just that if the team who pre-dated Wonder Girl was the Teen Titans I have yet to see a single panel in 54 acknowledging this. The panel does not exist. You have a nice well written origin story, but the first Teen Titans it is not.

 

Is there a panel in TTA 27 acknowledging that Hank Pym is Ant-Man?

 

This is a dumb argument that ignores that BB 54 introduces a team that was named the Teen Titans in its second appearance. DC made this clear as early as TT 1 and still says so today.

[sfcityduck]

 

Semantic arguments make my head hurt.

 

Playing devil's advocate here....

 

Could that paragraph not also be construed as the "Team" not becoming the "Teen Titans" until wonder girl was added in BB60?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and own neither book.

 

-J.

 

TT 1 states it is relaying "the history of the Teen Titans" and it starts that history with the events in BB 54. It then states that Wonder Girl was added to a pre-existing team in BB 60.

 

I absolutely agree that team was not called the Teen Titans until BB 60. No one disputes that. But, the team that became known as the "Teen Titans" was formed prior to BB 54. Which begs the question: What is more important - the first appearance of the team or the team name?

[Jaydogrules]

 

Semantic arguments make my head hurt.

 

Playing devil's advocate here....

 

Could that paragraph not also be construed as the "Team" not becoming the "Teen Titans" until wonder girl was added in BB60?

 

Disclaimer: I am not a dealer and own neither book.

 

-J.

 

TT 1 states it is relaying "the history of the Teen Titans" and it starts that history with the events in BB 54. It then states that Wonder Girl was added to a pre-existing team in BB 60.

 

I absolutely agree that team was not called the Teen Titans until BB 60. No one disputes that. But, the team that became known as the "Teen Titans" was formed prior to BB 54. Which begs the question: What is more important - the first appearance of the team or the team name?

 

(thumbs u

 

-J.

 

[HighStakesComics]

Then show me where they appear in 54. Don't take one word out of context and use it as the cornerstone of your argument. Don't post an article that strengthens my argument. I'm a reasonable guy. Clearly I'm passionate about comics. Convince me with one panel that clearly defines a team in perpetuity called the Teen Titans in 54 and Ill pick myself off the pavement and move on. Therein lies the issue. I know what I'm asking you cannot be done.

 

A LOT of problems with the above.

 

First, as you have been told a million times on this thread, no one is claiming that the "team" formed in BB 54 was called the "Teen Titans" in that issue. The "team" was formed in BB 54 and it was named in BB 60. That's the official DC history of the Teen Titans in TT 1, in the first reprinting of BB 54 in the 1973 DC 100 Page Super Spectacular 21, in the Official Teen Titans Index vetted by DC and overseen by folks like Jerry Bails and George Olshevsky, in the DC Silver Age Teen Titans Index, in the DC Teen Titans Showcase, in the DC celebration of the Teen Titans 50th Anniversary, and I'm willing to guess in the new Teen Titans book coming out in less than a month.

 

Second, the story of BB 54 tells you how three young heroes are thrust together by circumstances, adventure together, learn that the sum is more than the parts, and form a team. It is a redux of the story told in Avengers 1. And at the conclusion of the story in BB 54, very last panel, the text celebrates the triumph of this "new team." So as soon as BB 54, DC recognized the formation of a "new team." This view of BB 54 was endorsed by both the next appearance of the "team" in BB 60 and in the backstory told in the first issue of the new team's own title TT 1.

 

Third, what you are doing is constructing a logical fallacy. The fallacy is that you think a team cannot be formed unless it chooses a name. But, there's no logical reason why this must be so. TTA 27 tells us a hero can appear without a name. FF 1 tells us a hero and team can appear without costumes. The hard and fast rule upon which you rely just doesn't exist.

 

The most accurate thing you've said on this thread in a while is that you know the tests you've set up are impossible to meet. That appears to the m.o. of those pushing BB 60.

 

During the course of this thread you and others have tried to rely on DC's "official position," but now that it is clear it doesn't support you, you run from it.

 

Some here wanted evidence that fans viewed BB 54 as creating a team before they would concede it did so. TT 1 now provides that evidence. Yet, I see no statements of acceptance of BB as forming a team.

 

Given these setbacks to your position, I don't think you are interested in setting up tests that can be met.

 

 

 

How is this for a test? If Thing, Reed Richards and Johny Blaze randomly crossed each others paths and then the next issue Sue Storm came along and they were deemed the Fantastic Four would the first or second issue be the first appearance of the Fantastic Four? Just like your Avengers argument this isn't going to hold water. Especially not when your puffery fails to cite the other examples used by DC.

[HighStakesComics]

Sfcityduck loves the Teen Titans so much he owns zero copies of either book. If you love the Titans so much why don't you fire in on a 54 tomorrow, Duck? Show a little conviction versus 100 posts of slander, propaganda and puffery. Or maybe this little classic is holding you back?

 

 

[porcupine48]

[AlexanderM]

 

It's just that if the team who pre-dated Wonder Girl was the Teen Titans I have yet to see a single panel in 54 acknowledging this. The panel does not exist. You have a nice well written origin story, but the first Teen Titans it is not.

 

Is there a panel in TTA 27 acknowledging that Hank Pym is Ant-Man?

 

This is a dumb argument that ignores that BB 54 introduces a team that was named the Teen Titans in its second appearance. DC made this clear as early as TT 1 and still says so today.

 

In BB54 they were just 3 guys teaming up against an enemy. That does not make it a team in the sense of JLA, Avengers etc.

 

Batman and Superman have frequently "teamed up" since Superman 76, but do you think anyone who thinks about the teams in comics think of that as an actual team like JLA, Avengers, X-men, Defenders, Invaders, Fantastic Four and so on and on. No, of course not. Sure they team up and called themselves a team in some of those issues, but they were not a formal team.

 

The actual formal team was founded/introduced/appeared by 4 teens in BB60. BB54 tells part of the back-story why they decided to form that team.

[AlexanderM]

Sfcityduck loves the Teen Titans so much he owns zero copies of either book. If you love the Titans so much why don't you fire in on a 54 tomorrow, Duck? Show a little conviction versus 100 posts of slander, propaganda and puffery. Or maybe this little classic is holding you back?

 

 

 

Clear as day.

[sfcityduck]

Blazing,

 

I think it is telling that your argument is starting to become more desperate and more shrill.

 

How many times are you going to post the Table of Contents of the reprint of BB 60 without posting the Table of Contents of the reprint of BB 54 from the same time period which says it is a Teen Titans adventure? That's called cherry picking.

 

I fully concede that although DC generally called BB 54 the first Teen Titans adventure for the past 49 years, there were two exceptions (1) in 1973, DC reprinted BB 60 and called it the first TT adventure (this was shortly corrected when DC reprinted BB 54) and (2) in the final issue of the failed 1970s revival of the Teen Titans, an editorial comment was made by "JCH" in the last issue retcon that BB 54 was not a Teen Titans team-up (subsequently corrected numerous times). The vast weight of DC official statements supports BB 54.

 

Not sure why not presently owning BB 54 or 60 is an issue to you. I own the archives, I once owned a number of the SA Teen Titans stories (since sold) and still have all the NTT I bought when they came out. As I said, I love the story of the Teen Titans, I don't have a dog in the investment race. This debate, though, makes me want to buy both.

[r100comics]

This image is a screen capture from DC's web site. When you, I or any future comic book reader wants to download the digital version of BB54, this is the description DC has written:

 

 

Also of interest, if you scroll through the digital pages of BB54, DC has decided to include the following logo on several interior pages:

 

 

While not definitive, I do think these images should be part of the conversation going forward. Thoughts?

 

See for yourself here:

 

https://www.readdcentertainment.com/The-Brave-and-the-Bold-1955-1983-54/digital-comic/0868300545001

 

Game over.

 

[HighStakesComics]

Duck, you failed to mention that I was the one who originally posted the footnote from the 54 reprint which proclaims the 3 individuals in 54 "would later become known as the Teen Titans". It appears to me that closer to inception DC took the stance that 60 was the first appearance. I am basing this on the footnotes from the 2 reprints, letter from TT 1, and the panel I listed above. As the collection/speculation of back issues became a business, shortly after the reprints were released, the 54 became the more prominent book. There are about 3.5 copies of 54 on the census for every 1 of the 60. Obviously there are some nice, raw copies of 60 floating around as evidenced by this thread.

I also find the wording interesting from DC Wikia whom calls 60 "the first canonical appearance". The use of the word "canonical" is what intrigues me. The word "canon" means to establish clarity/the opposite of ambiguity. Whomever posted this is conceding that some type of event occurred in 54, which may or may not have led to the formation of the Titans, but the events of 60 remove any ambiguity.